Ideal Partition of Germany?

[Tambourine]

How would German dialects become languages in the post partition state? If occupiers actively encouraged this？

I don't think that would be feasible at this point in the timeline, when German nationalism was still very strong. It would have to be started from the bottom up, empowering local dialects and encouraging the creation of literary pioneers like what would eventually happen OTL in Serbia, Croatia and Slovenia - basically you need a strong separatist movement that can build this from the ground up.

I could see this happening in an independent Bavaria that would have a strong separatist group in power, but overall I think separatism among German regions was too weak to be able to pull this off.

 

[Neoteros]

I don't know what would be a good partition plan, but here's a few states I wouldn't mind seeing:

A restored Kingdom of Bavaria under the House of Wittelsbach, since monarchist sentiment used to be relatively strong in Bavaria back then; its borders would be those of the old Kingdom of Bavaria, except Austria would be annexed to the restored monarchy as an autonomous duchy under the House of Habsburg - Vorarlberg, however, would finally be able to join Switzerland. Being a largely Austro-Bavarian and Catholic state, this would set it apart from the rest of Germany, and the presence of two fondly remembered royal houses with a history of opposition to the Nazi regime and - at least in OTL - Europeanism, would set it apart from the northerners even more.

A restored Rhenish Republic, for more or less the same reason - regionalist sentiment has always been quite strong near the Rhine. It'll probably end up being a highly industrialized state, and more or less the South Korea of Europe.

An independent Lusatia bordering Czechoslovakia, with its capital at Cottbus.

An independent Frisia too, because why not.

And of course, Luxembourg gains back the land it lost in 1815.

 

[Dorknought]

Looking at fertility rates, I think that map 9 should be an east-west boundary.

And ww2 was Coffee vs Tea

 

[Athelstane]

1. A war in which Stalin has armies ending up on the Elbe becomes a very difficult one in which you can avoid an East-West division. The Soviets will not want to leave their zone(s) until a) they are fully confident that whatever succeeds the Occupation is zero-zip-nada threat to the Rodina, and b) they've sucked every bit of resource out of it they can by way of compensation for wartime losses.

It's not impossible, perhaps. Maybe if Churchill and Roosevelt reach an early consensus (which they failed to do in OTL) on a) a fragmented Germany, and b) what the boundaries of the fragmentation are, Stalin might go along with it to some degree. But even then, the Cold War is still going to happen, and that will be a powerful force driving for political cooperation and structure between the non-Soviet occupied German states.

2. Now, if the war turns out with Soviet armies finishing up somewhere in Central Poland rather than Central Germany, more possibilities open up here. That's not impossible, of course - kill off Hitler in '43, with Manstein playing for more time in the East until the collapse, or kill off Stalin around that time, with an internecine power struggle in Moscow that stalls the Soviet war effort sufficiently, to give a couple of more obvious possibilties. At that point, the US and Britain have more leverage in many respects, perhaps even enough to disallow a formal Soviet occupation zone (or at least a major one) of anything beyond East Prussia.

3. BTW, one other scenario not presented in the poll, but which ought to be considered, is the Sumner Welles plan for a tripartite division of Germany, published in LIFE magazine in July, 1944:

 

[kernals12]

1. A war in which Stalin has armies ending up on the Elbe becomes a very difficult one in which you can avoid an East-West division. The Soviets will not want to leave their zone(s) until a) they are fully confident that whatever succeeds the Occupation is zero-zip-nada threat to the Rodina, and b) they've sucked every bit of resource out of it they can by way of compensation for wartime losses.

It's not impossible, perhaps. Maybe if Churchill and Roosevelt reach an early consensus (which they failed to do in OTL) on a) a fragmented Germany, and b) what the boundaries of the fragmentation are, Stalin might go along with it to some degree. But even then, the Cold War is still going to happen, and that will be a powerful force driving for political cooperation and structure between the non-Soviet occupied German states.

2. Now, if the war turns out with Soviet armies finishing up somewhere in Central Poland rather than Central Germany, more possibilities open up here. That's not impossible, of course - kill off Hitler in '43, with Manstein playing for more time in the East until the collapse, or kill off Stalin around that time, with an internecine power struggle in Moscow that stalls the Soviet war effort sufficiently, to give a couple of more obvious possibilties. At that point, the US and Britain have more leverage in many respects, perhaps even enough to disallow a formal Soviet occupation zone (or at least a major one) of anything beyond East Prussia.

3. BTW, one other scenario not presented in the poll, but which ought to be considered, is the Sumner Welles plan for a tripartite division of Germany, published in LIFE magazine in July, 1944:

I'm surprised they let the Rhineland stay in German hands.

 

[Athelstane]

I support either OTL’s plan or one that somehow keeps modern Germany in a single unit. I have a feeling a collection of small German states would eventually unify as the forces of nationalism pulls them back together and the Western allies preference for a strong Germany vs a weak Germany has occupying and securing a weak Germany proved too expensive

Well, one advantage of breaking it up could be the draw, for many Germans, of putting the war and war guilt behind them, especially if you built the states on existing cultural identities. A Hans or Friedrich who can now say he's a Saxon or a Bavarian or Swabian can draw a line against what happened in 1933-45 - "That was Germany. I'm something else." Now many Germans could have a vested interest in a Central Europe made of up numerous German states all at pains to identify themselves as something other than German.

Of course, that has the obvious disadvantage of, well, making it even easier for German postwar amnesia to flourish. You can see some of that at work in postwar Austria ("Hitler's first victim").

 

[Athelstane]

I'm surprised they let the Rhineland stay in German hands.

Obviously a lot of French leaders had different ideas in that vein. But France obviously had less leverage.

 

[Green Painting]

I could see this happening in an independent Bavaria that would have a strong separatist group in power, but overall I think separatism among German regions was too weak to be able to pull this off.

Quan you enlighten me on how much of each German dialect survive the onslaught of the standard language at this point in time? The Bayern dialect must have been fairing much better than other dialects?

 

[Vnix]

Becouse of the Dutch getting conquered they were unable to contribute as much as others to the war effort.

The same should then also apply to any and all conquered nations, but you obviously don't apply it to Poland. More importantly the Netherlands remained in the fight and kept aiding with all it could!

 

[Dorknought]

Well, one advantage of breaking it up could be the draw, for many Germans, of putting the war and war guilt behind them, especially if you built the states on existing cultural identities. A Hans or Friedrich who can now say he's a Saxon or a Bavarian or Swabian can draw a line against what happened in 1933-45 - "That was Germany. I'm something else." Now many Germans could have a vested interest in a Central Europe made of up numerous German states all at pains to identify themselves as something other than German.

Of course, that has the obvious disadvantage of, well, making it even easier for German postwar amnesia to flourish. You can see some of that at work in postwar Austria ("Hitler's first victim").

Yes, the Austrian units captured at Stalingrad began differentiating themselves quite quickly. Since then the Austrians have successfully convinced the world that Beethoven was Austrian and that Hitler was German...

 

[Hvalrossen]

The same should then also apply to any and all conquered nations, but you obviously don't apply it to Poland. More importantly the Netherlands remained in the fight and kept aiding with all it could!

Poland and the Soviet Union had population transfers, that moved Poles out of the SU into Poland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_population_transfers_(1944–1946)
Poland gaining some of East Prussia and Danzig is just a land transfer between Poland and the Soviet Union.

The Netherlands did contribute something to the allied war effort even if the core was occupied i don't deny that. It was the same in Norway, where the free Norwegian govorments greatest contribution to the allied war effort was in letting the allies use the great Norwegian merchant fleet. Still i don't think that the Dutch should get any of the territory suggested in the Bekker-Schut plan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_annexation_of_German_territory_after_World_War_II

Maybe i am not being entirely consistent, but i think you get the point.

 

[Dorknought]

Still i don't think that the Dutch should get any of the territory suggested in the Bekker-Schut plan.

How many Bicycles would that be worth?

 

[riggerrob]

WI Finland, East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Austria and Bulgaria were declared a De-Militarized Zone?

The southern DMZ would be administered from Liechtenstein, while the northern DMZ would be administered from a port on the Prussian/Polish coast.

They would be forbidden to militarily align themselves with either bloc. Only handfuls of Soviet and WALLIED military observers would be allowed brief visits to the DMZ.
The DMZ would be allowed to trade openly with eastern and western blocs ..... with similar taxes, tariffs and passport control.

 

[jmc247]

There was various levels of support in the press for merging the FDR plan and the deindustrialization plan, it’s unclear how such an idea could have ever been executed. There was also the belief in some quarters Germany could be returned to the Holy Roman Empire days.

At the same time the public airing of so many post-Unconditional Surrender end Germany plans in 1943 and 1944 helped keep the Germans fighting until the end.

 

[Tanc49]

There was various levels of support in the press for merging the FDR plan and the deindustrialization plan, it’s unclear how such an idea could have ever been executed. There was also the belief in some quarters Germany could be returned to the Holy Roman Empire days.

At the same time the public airing of so many post-Unconditional Surrender end Germany plans in 1943 and 1944 helped keep the Germans fighting until the end.

I'd avoid too small states as they'll naturally try to aggregate together and form some kind of federation.
If you want to break it up, you also want to avoid states that would be too big and force the others in some kind of federation.
I'll suggest cut what you can and create mid-sized nations, strong enough to stand on their own internationally but small enough to never be able to dominate Europe

 

[ramones1986]

I chose Roosevelt's Plan because, well, in a hypothetically independent Hannover, Low German language (aka Saxon) would be revitalized.

 

[NoMommsen]

I chose Roosevelt's Plan because, well, in a hypothetically independent Hannover, Low German language (aka Saxon) would be revitalized.

Actually ever been in todays Saxony ?
There you can find WELL ENOUGH examples of the saxon language/dialect-of-german.

 

[NoMommsen]

If the only goal was to indefinitely prevent future German unification, and or its capability to wage future wars what would your ideal(if any) partition of Germany look like.

"Indefinitly" ... some rather LARGE word.

IMO a german unification can't be "prevented", aside extinction of the german people even more thoroughly as the Nazis have tried to extinct the jewish from Europe.

Prevent the capapility to "wage war" from the very center of Europe ... would very much depend on what happens around this center ... as mayn would like to control this center.
At some point whatever part of germany would become part of some "2warring" faction and ... TADAAH : there you have agian "war from german soil"

However to postpone a unification as far into the future as possible :

The more parts the better, therefore here the Roosevelt Plan​

 

[ramones1986]

Actually ever been in todays Saxony ?
.

In Lower Saxony, you mean? I have an impression that Low German/Saxon speakers aren't much visible.

 

[NoMommsen]

@ramones1986
Well so-called "High German" as the "general" german language is mainly ... a hannoveranian dialect.