Holding Out for a Hero: Gustav Stresemann Survives

I am sure forces such as Hugenberg, Hitler and the junkers wish to see a more reasonable president succeeding him. We have three forces in Germany it seems, the right, the centre, where I suppose Stresemann stand, and the left, which is splitted in the SPD and KPD.
 

Faeelin

Banned
I am sure forces such as Hugenberg, Hitler and the junkers wish to see a more reasonable president succeeding him. We have three forces in Germany it seems, the right, the centre, where I suppose Stresemann stand, and the left, which is splitted in the SPD and KPD.

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,

The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.


Sorry, it seemed appropriate.

IMO it's worth asking if the SDP would be afraid enough at this point to push for a joint ticket, or whether they'd want to run on their own. The Right would probably get Theodor Duesterberg to run again, and Hitler will gladly run against Stresemann.

Hrm.
 

Faeelin

Banned
The first time I've ever really felt sympathetic towards Hindenburg. Excellent writing. Who replaces him, I wonder?

I don't really like Hindenburg. He was clearly out of his depth, wrapped in a cocoon by his advisors so he only heard what they said. Meanwhile, he was indecisive, letting his advisors take the fall if an idea was bad, but taking credit if he was good. And he was a German militarist, so.

But, it's hard not to sympathize with an old man who'se out of his weight, to some extent.
 
The first time I've ever really felt sympathetic towards Hindenburg. Excellent writing. Who replaces him, I wonder?

If things do continue on their current course, the Nazis and rightists will continue to gain steam. I hope Stresemann knows what he's doing...
I don't really like Hindenburg. He was clearly out of his depth, wrapped in a cocoon by his advisors so he only heard what they said. Meanwhile, he was indecisive, letting his advisors take the fall if an idea was bad, but taking credit if he was good. And he was a German militarist, so.

But, it's hard not to sympathize with an old man who'se out of his weight, to some extent.
Yeah, I feel a bit sorry for him too... by this point in the story (and RL, obviously), he was in his 80s, and time was taking a toll; on top of which, as you say, he was indecisive, and tended to take the advice of the last person who spoke to him. Even his reputation as saviour of Germany at Tannenberg, and as (essentially) the military dictator of Germany later in WW1 was mostly undeserved... it was really Ludendorff, and their chief aide, who did the real strategic planning, with Hindenburg as a popular figurehead. The same was generally true when he became President.

I do like Stresemann's attempt to get him to understand the experiences of the common soldier (although haven't read All Quiet... myself - how is it?)

Really, Wilhelm Marx would have been a much better President: he actively supported the Weimar Republic rather than simply tolerating it; and was a competent, centrist, consensus-seeking, experienced politician, rather than a man famous only for his (mostly non-existent) military prowess. But that would be a 1925 POD, and a different discussion... :)
 

Faeelin

Banned
I do like Stresemann's attempt to get him to understand the experiences of the common soldier (although haven't read All Quiet... myself - how is it?)

TBH? I only saw the movie; but I was inspired by the fact that Bruening suggested it OTL. I concur about Marx, but the Weimar TL sorta went there.
 
TBH? I only saw the movie; but I was inspired by the fact that Bruening suggested it OTL. I concur about Marx, but the Weimar TL sorta went there.
Aye, this is a TL about Stresemann's survival helping the Republic pull through (and sowing the seeds of European Union, too), after all.
I hope this will continue?
 

Faeelin

Banned
The Center Holds: The Election of 1932

While Stresemann was appointed to act as interim President, it was clear that an election would have to be held. The fault lines were soon drawn, with Hitler as the candidate of the Nazi Party, and Stresemann as the candidate for “Reasonable Front”, a coalition of the SPD, DDVP, and Center Party. The DNVP supported its own candidate, Hugenberg, as did the Communists…

Throughout the election, both Hitler and Stresemann tried to show they were candidates for the German people. Hitler captivated millions as he crisscrossed the nation by plane, while Stresemann’s “fireside chats” were played in beer halls across the country….

What surprised many about the election was the basis of Stresemann’s support. While some in industry had provided support to the Nazis, many more were uncomfortable with their policies and the instability they promised. In this situation, supporting Stresemann, who was trying to restart world trade and had made progress in ending the Depression, made sense. This led to a peculiar demographic, where workers and industrialists supported Stresemann while the middle class turned to the National Socialist Workers’ Party….

Of course, to this day Historians debate the significance of the Stresemann-Hitler debate…
-From "The Rise and Fall of the Nazi Party"

The beer hall was full of Nazis, who had come to hear their Leader best Stresemann. The old fart had outlawed party uniforms, and so everyone wore a white shirt and black tie, listening to the radio as Stresemann spoke. “So to reiterate, Herr Hitler, you have no real plan. You offer only vague promises and words, offering action without telling us what it is. You ramble against the enemies of the Volk, but you admit you despise the Republic.” There was a silence, and then Stresemann said, “What is it you stand for, other than hate?”

There was muttering in the bar, but Hitler’s response was quick and vicious. “Pretty words,” he said. “Did your Jew Eichmann write them for you?”

Stresemann’s voice hardened. “Yes, Eichmann is a writer of mine. And he is loyal to the Vaterland, the same as me.”

”Feh! Did he work on the black market during the war, or was he just a saboteour?”

Those in the bar chuckled. “That’s our Fuhrer!” some one cried out, and Stresemann remained silent, struck by Hitler’s words.

Or so it seemed. “Have you no decency?” There was a pause, and it seemed as if they could hear Stresemann collecting his thoughts. “Until this moment, Mr. Hitler, I never really gauged your cruelty, or your recklessness. Carl Eichmann is a young man who served the Fatherland on the Western Front from 1916 until the end. He joined the People’s Party to promote the interests of the German people, and I will not stand here while you insult him.”

As the radio waves carried the applause of the audience over the speakers, some one turned it off. “Damned kike lover,” muttered some one in the bar. “He’ll get his after we win.”

One or two in the bar, however, looked down at their drink, remembering fallen comrades. Perhaps, they thought, they would not vote for Hitler on election day.

The election of 1932 was the most divisive in German history, and Stresemann only won after a bitter run off. Although initial fears of a Nazi Putsch seemed exaggerated, Stresemann was forced to make concessions to the military that he would later regret to ensure their support…. [1]

Meanwhile, the Nazi Party found itself fragmenting and stagnant. Stresemann’s economic policies, enacted when he was the interim president, had begun to revive the economy, and it was clear that Stresemann could, and would, spend the next seven years ruling by decree if he had to. Although the Nazis managed to win a staggering victory in the Reichstag elections called shortly after Stresemann’s election, winning 144 seats (compared to the Social Democrats 138), elections called in November witnessed the Nazi share of the vote decline in favor of the DDVP and, ominously, the KPD. It appeared, in short, that Hitler’s plan to seize power through the ballot box had failed. Other options, of course, presented themselves.


Erich Koch-Weser, one of the few members of the DDVP who looked to retain their seat in the Reichstag after the coming elections, knocked on the door of the Stresemann’s study and entered. “Congratulations, Mr. President.”

Stresemann looked up and laughed. There was an open bottle of schnapps on his desk, and Erich noticed that it was half empty. “Wonderful,” he said. “Now half of the nation thinks we should either be by Fascists or Reds.”

Erich winced. Put that way, the results were pretty awful. “On the other hand, he pointed out,” half of the nation doesn’t.”

Stresemann looked at the bottle. “Given what the Nazis say,” he slurred, “maybe this should be champagne?” The bottle rolled out of his hand and fell onto the desk. He closed his eyes, and Erich thought he’d passed out. “It’s our fault, you know.” We promised them freedom, peace, plenty. What did they get?” He laughed. “No wonder any fool promising hope and change could get in office.”

Stresemann looked at the bottle, and shrugged. “Still,” he said, “Frederick the Great didn’t give up when the Russians occupied Berlin.” He closed his eyes. “Tomorrow,” he said, “we have a lot of work to do.”

[1] This historian is simplifying. Stresemann is quite fine with an army capable of making the Poles quake, thank you.

And why not? Pilsudski had made noises about invading Prussia if the Nazis won, after all.
 

Faeelin

Banned
At the risk of stirring up a hornet's nest... where could I find statistics for the population of the Danzig Corridor in the 1910s and the 1930s?
 
At the risk of stirring up a hornet's nest... where could I find statistics for the population of the Danzig Corridor in the 1910s and the 1930s?

If you check some of the old threads with Susano and Hurgan going hammer and tongs, I'm sure there'll be a couple of sets of figures there. Susano will probably remember which threads.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Beside everything point to Danzig having a German majority of over 90% of the population.

And according to "Orphans of Versailles"* the ceded area to Poland was circa a third German in 1918, but it was a lot lower, just a few year later, thanks to a systematic degermanisation policy. Pomorze specific was 43% German in 1918**, in 1931 there under 10% in both Pomorze and Poznania***.


* http://books.google.com/books?id=80...=0_1&sig=pGK9steFAKV69MkR10UBc4mbwBg#PPA23,M1

**But a interesting fact is that the Silisian area which Poland got were only 30% German, but 44% voted to stay in Germany after WWI.

***Had German as "mother tongue"
 
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Susano

Banned
If you check some of the old threads with Susano and Hurgan going hammer and tongs, I'm sure there'll be a couple of sets of figures there. Susano will probably remember which threads.

Actually, I dont. Only thing I remember is Hurgan viciously decrying German official statistics as Imperialist propaganda... but, ah, I remember accidently finding (that is, I waslooking for an useable basemap, and not that) some some maps showing ethnic majorities in the borderlands of the German Empire some time back... lets see if I can find them again...
 

Faeelin

Banned
Blood, Iron, and Paper: Stresemann and Foreign Relations in the Early 1930s

When Stresemann assumed the presidency, Germany had among the weakest militaries in Europe. With only 100,000 men and little in the way of heavy weaponry. The German military, known as the Reichswehr, had sought to change this, urging rearmament in the 1920s, and one of their demands of Stresemann was that he rearm in return for their support.

First, few, if any, Germans thought it was fair that Germany’s neighbors were free to arm as they pleased. Versailles had forced Germany to disarm, but had pledged that the Allied nations would follow soon thereafter. Although both Britain and France had cut spending on armaments, their militaries were still much larger than Germany’s. Even Poland had a larger military, a gross injustice in the eyes of many Germans. It should come as no surprise that as early as 1928, Stresemann had supported a limited rearmament, increasing the Reichswehr to sixteen divisions, instead of the ten Versailles limited Germany to.Yet Stresemann was also a strong believer in the League of Nations and world peace, as his career illustrates. The 1930s witnessed new opportunities for the man behind Thoiry and Locarno, as well as new challenges.

China

On the morning of September 19, 1931 units of the Imperial Japanese Army launched an attack on Chinese forces in Manchuria, rapidly overrunning the region. China’s leadership was incapable of forming an effective defense, and by March of 1932 effective resistance in the region had ended. In desperation, China appealed to the League of Nations for help. [1]

Yet there were many in Western Europe who sympathized with Japan. Many in France, for instance, held that Japan’s invasion was a response to China’s efforts to get the “unequal treaties” revised, and therefore well deserved.

It should come as no surprise, then that Stresemann was worried about the precedent Japan’s actions set, and warned the League Council in October that it had to ask “or risk irrelevance”. In the end, of course, the League of Nations dithered; President Hoover was unwilling to place sanctions on Japan, while neither France nor Britain would risk war over some Chinese provinces. Yet Stresemann’s kind words would be remembered in Nanjing, and helped set in motion the Sino-German collaboration that would later become so important.

It also earned Germany good will which Stresemann used in the Geneva Conference on Disarmament in 1932.

Disarmament

The Genera Conference opened with fifty-nine nations attending, hundreds of delegates, and millions of petitions from around the globe supporting their work. Yet there were those who hardly considered the timing auspicious, and only Stresemann’s continued insistence made the Conference happen at all [2]. Progress had been made, with most nations agreeing to a one year armament freeze in November of 1931, but it was unclear how long the freeze could last. And even as the conference met, war waged in the Far East.

In Germany itself, disarmament was a contentious issue. Millions of copies of All Quiet on the Western Front were sold even as nationalists tried to get the film version banned. Student groups supporting rearmament emerged across Germany even as over a million people attended rallies in favor of disarmament. And behind the scenes lurked the Reicswehr, pushing for German rearmament even as France, Britain, and America had cut their budget for years.

France, for its part, came to the Conference with the appearance of strength. It had the second largest army in Europe, after the Sovet Union, but much of its equipment was woefully out of date. Its once vaunted air force was in shambles, with few bombers. Its high command was already focused on the concept of a line of fortresses to guard the French border, and was wedded to antiquated tactics. France’s Foreign Office declared that Germany must remained disarmed, and that France itself would only disarm further if every state was guaranteed “mutual, effective, and prompt” assistance against aggression. [3]

Britain’s position was, of the three nations, the most clearcut. Britain supported Germany’s efforts at a moderate revision, and it was universally held that France held the key to disarmament. This was the scene when the Conference opened.

It should come as no surprise that the powers ignored five years of negotiations conducted by their League Delegates and came to the Conference with various proposals. France proposed a League of Nations Task force, prohibiting bombers, regulations protecting civilian populations, and compulsory arbitration. [4] Heavy artillery, submarines, and other weapons of warfare could only be used on behalf of the League of for national defense. France did not hope to have these demands met, but the idea was to postpone discussion of Germany’s terms until after French elections in May.

Britain, meanwhile, proposed qualitative disarmament, under which all “aggressive weapons” would be abolished. This received widespread support, but also led to the formation of a subcommittee who was to determine was an “aggressive” weapon. The subcommittee proceeded to enjoy numerous sessions at Geneva’s finest restaurants before breaking for Easter with no real progress.

Stresemann, for his part, could not attend the Conference given that the German presidential campaign was still ongoing, but Germany’s delegates were sent with his proposal. France was to disarm further, and recognize Germany’s right to expand its military force. However, France would continue to have a larger military, and Germany would support the formation of a League of Nations task force. Furthermore, various “aggressive” weapons, such as bombers, could only be used by the League of Nations Task Force, or in self-defense. [5]

The reaction in France was one of horror. Although Briand [6] supported it, the leader of the French government, Andre Tardieu, was horrified. Never in his worst nightmare did he imagine that Stresemann would accept. Now any refusal would make it appear that he opposed disarmament and give the appearance that Germany alone favored peace in Europe. On the other hand, this is the Third Republic; any agreement he makes will probably be overturned by the next government five months from now.

What to do?

(Seriously. I have no idea what should happen now.)

[1] Where’s Sun Yat-sen when you need him?

[2] Bruning pushed the issue OTL, so why not Stresemann?

[3] Why doesn’t this apply to East Asia, where Japan is busy bombing Shanghai?

Lots of reporters get a kick out of the French response when Stresemann asks about this at the Conference.

[4] See 3.

[5] Bruning proposed a similar platform OTL, but in April rather than February when the conference opened. Stresemann is hoping to get French acquiescence and British support for German rearmament, and wants a victory for his presidential campaign.

[6] Who, IMO, gets at least a few more months if international relations are less stressful.
 
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Valdemar II

Banned
One thing if France is willing to stay neutral in a German-Polish war I think it's unavoideble. If Germany wins they won't just accept West Prussia, they will also take Posen and Polish Silisia (Slesk).

The result is unlikely to be pretty I could see half of Posen and Silesias population leaving*, while enough Poles will leave West Prussia** to bring the Kashubians in majority***.

Slesk will likely be repopulated by Germans rather fast, thanks to the local industries and natural resources, while Posen will stay rather depopulated especially the towns and cities. So we get a West Prussia with Kashubian majority****, a depopulated Posen with a Polish majority but a large German minority, and a Slesk with a German majority which is well integrated into the German economy

*Some voluntary, some less so, and likely most them will belong to the Urban population.

**25 to 33 % of the total population will likely leave

***And likely the Poles who stay there will in time be integrated/assimilated into the Kashubian nationality, with German support.

****At least without Danzig.
 
Originally posted by Valdemar II

One thing if France is willing to stay neutral in a German-Polish war I think it's unavoideble. If Germany wins they won't just accept West Prussia, they will also take Posen and Polish Silisia (Slesk).

The war is unavoidable only if Germany starts it. And it wouldn't have been easy - Poles would have fought with everything they had. I'm also not sure about France remaining neutral - big, strong and aggressive Germany is not what France wanted to see.
As far as territorial changes in case of Polish defeat goes, I agree about Pomerania (or West Prussia, although we Poles don't like that name), but I doubt about Posen (Poznań). Poles were decisive majority there, so keeping that territory under control would have been very hard.
Also, I don't believe in massive exodus of Poles from all those territories - unless it is forced.

And likely the Poles who stay there will in time be integrated/assimilated into the Kashubian nationality, with German support.

I seriously doubt it. Poles have a long history of resisting any "de-polonization" attempts. Also, with rest of Poland still independent, they would have had a basis and centre of Polish culture very close, helping them to preserve their language, culture and sense of nationality. Not to mention the hate to Germans as "ancient oppressors" of Poles. For Poles from Pomerania, Great Poland and Silesia it would have been like another partition.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
The war is unavoidable only if Germany starts it. And it wouldn't have been easy - Poles would have fought with everything they had. I'm also not sure about France remaining neutral - big, strong and aggressive Germany is not what France wanted to see..

That's given that it would Germany who would start it, but I doubt the Poles could win on any scale, but I only think Germany is going to start the war if France is willing to stay neutral, and that become more and more likely up through the 30ties

As far as territorial changes in case of Polish defeat goes, I agree about Pomerania (or West Prussia, although we Poles don't like that name), but I doubt about Posen (Poznań). Poles were decisive majority there, so keeping that territory under control would have been very hard. .

I don't think German would take less, and while it would give some problems, I doubt it's something Germany can't take.


Also, I don't believe in massive exodus of Poles from all those territories - unless it is forced. .

Germany is likely going to deport all post 1918 Polish emigrants, beside that Polish governmentalofficial, lawyers etc are going leave voluntary, simply because they would lack work, beside that a lot people would leave because a growing unemployment thanks to the population which has already left (the ones who is going to leave would be mostly urban, the rural population is going to stay)*, beside that a lot of Polish nationalist is going leave.

I seriously doubt it. Poles have a long history of resisting any "de-polonization" attempts. Also, with rest of Poland still independent, they would have had a basis and centre of Polish culture very close, helping them to preserve their language, culture and sense of nationality. Not to mention the hate to Germans as "ancient oppressors" of Poles. For Poles from Pomerania, Great Poland and Silesia it would have been like another partition.

So I don't see it protect them, a primary difference were that the Poles in this has a alternative a Polish state a few kilometers away and many of them has little nostaligy toward Posen and West Prussia, while the rural Polish population is going to stay**, the urban population will not. Beside the whole assimilation into the Kashubian nationality in West Prussia is quite likely, because of the close religeous and linguistic relationship with the Poles, and the favorit treatment of Kashubians. I think you overestimated the stubborness of people on the ground.
At last I wouldn't be surprised if around 5-10% of the population changed nationality on the spot (to German), a lot of "Polish"*** parents in the former German areas tried to get their children in German minority schools.

*Most of this is a duplication of the process which happen to Polish German 1918-1922.

**Just as the German rural population did after WWI.

***Or at least parents, which the Polish government defined as Polish.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Incidentally, the numbers favor Poland in the Corridor. Herm.

If you're talking about demography, they favored the Polish strongly*, but in the end if Danzig/Gdansk is counted in Poles would at best be a plurality, with Kashubians as the balance between German and Poles.

*But less strongly than the official demography show, a lot of Polish speakers was pro-German.
 
Originally posted by Valdemar II
I don't think German would take less, and while it would give some problems, I doubt it's something Germany can't take.
In Poznań/Posen region (Great Poland) it would have probably resulted with birth of Polish equivalent of IRA.

Germany is likely going to deport all post 1918 Polish emigrants, beside that Polish governmentalofficial, lawyers etc are going leave voluntary, simply because they would lack work, beside that a lot people would leave because a growing unemployment thanks to the population which has already left (the ones who is going to leave would be mostly urban, the rural population is going to stay)*, beside that a lot of Polish nationalist is going leave.

That is a very big deportation. Poland was buiding Gdynia at that time and it required many thousends of people from whole country, with families, etc. Germany would have looked really bad doing it. As far as Polish nationalists goes, I think they would have stayed to mess as much as possible with Germany - again, Polish equivalent of IRA.

So I don't see it protect them, a primary difference were that the Poles in this has a alternative a Polish state a few kilometers away and many of them has little nostaligy toward Posen and West Prussia, while the rural Polish population is going to stay**, the urban population will not. Beside the whole assimilation into the Kashubian nationality in West Prussia is quite likely, because of the close religeous and linguistic relationship with the Poles, and the favorit treatment of Kashubians. I think you overestimated the stubborness of people on the ground.
At last I wouldn't be surprised if around 5-10% of the population changed nationality on the spot (to German), a lot of "Polish"*** parents in the former German areas tried to get their children in German minority schools.
Excuse me? Posen region, also known as Great Poland, is a birthplace of Polish state! If any region can be called "always Polish" that is precisely there. Trust me, almost no Pole would have left Great Poland, unless forced to do it. As far as Pomerania/West Prussia goes, it might be a little different. And I still do not think you are right about assimilation of Poles into Kashubians. Besides, Kashubians don't have to be more pro-German than Poles.
Personally, I believe Germany could win war against Poland and take Pomerania and Silesia. I have my doubts about Great Poland (AFAIK even Stresemann didn't propose the return of that territory to Germany). However, it would mean no peace between Poland and Germany. Ever. You can bet there would be terrorist activity against German for many years later. I doubt if Stresemann would have wanted to fight very bloody war (German army wouldn't be so strong as IOTL) to gain some territories that would later become a bleeing wound in German side.
There is another thing I wonder, perhaps you could tell me. What was Stresemann position concernig Sudetenland?
 

Valdemar II

Banned
There is another thing I wonder, perhaps you could tell me. What was Stresemann position concernig Sudetenland?


I'm not entire sure but everything I have read point to the fact, that it was only Hitler who truely cared about it.

It make sense when you think about it, it hadn't been part of the Second Empire, the Germans was relative well treated and a important factor in Czechoslovakian politics and Germany lacked a large Czechoslovakian German dispora*.

So as long as Prague treat its German minority well Germany is unlikely to try anything funny.

*Compared to West Poland where atleast 600000 German citizens had been born, and had left after WWI, and a lot of the German elite had lost property.
 
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