Historia Mundi

It's ... interesting, killing Caesar and the others (Cicero, Pompey) and with the Roman expansion into Arabia. I take it Arabia Felix is left for a later time?

What happened to Crassus and I assume Octavian is not here thanks to butterflies?

Is Titus Antonius (family of Marcus?) your own invention or a an OTL marginal character you promoted to the forefront here?

The timeline is certainly original and like your other two I'll follow it with interest.
 
Archdevil said:
It's ... interesting, killing Caesar and the others (Cicero, Pompey) and with the Roman expansion into Arabia. I take it Arabia Felix is left for a later time?
Perhaps.

Archdevil said:
What happened to Crassus and I assume Octavian is not here thanks to butterflies?
Crassus just kinda faded into the woodwork, probably dead by this point. I imagine once Titus Antonius took over, he went along with it.

Archdevil said:
Is Titus Antonius (family of Marcus?) your own invention or a an OTL marginal character you promoted to the forefront here?
Fictional. Most of Marc Antony's relatives were also named Marc Antony, so I didn't want to use the same name. But yeah, pretty much everyone's gonna be fictional now. Caesar was one of the last people to be born before the POD. I fudged the Emperor of China being born after the POD, figuring that it'll take awhile for the butterflies to get that far.

Archdevil said:
The timeline is certainly original and like your other two I'll follow it with interest.
Thank you. :)
 
Ok, so, when this dictatorship falls, I'm going to have a sort of constitutional convention to reform the republic. Any suggestions on how to make the roman republic better? A few ideas I have:

1) Abolish the office of dictator completely. With Rome as large as it is, there's no need for it.
2) Limit the provincial governors, keep military and civil commands seperate. Something like the national guard might be available to the civil authorities, for defence, but nothing large.
3) Fudge the government into a 3 branch government ala the US. It might not be too hard. The Senate could be the judicial branch (sounds funny, but thats not too far from what they were in OTL). The various assemblies would be the legislative branch. As for the Executive branch, we could go with the Consuls, but I'm not sure. We'd have to seperate them from the Senate.
4) Expand the assemblies. I'm thinking of creating a new assembly, the Colonial Assembly, for citizens living outside the City. So, heavily Romanized areas of the Republic (the rest of Italy, for example) would be organized into Agri Coloniae (Colonial Territories, colonial in the Roman sense, a settlement of Romans outside of Rome) which would sent representatives to Rome. This would be a kind of goal for the provinces to reach. If they play ball enough, they might eventually be admitted as a Colonial Territory.

Thoughts? Suggestions? I really want input. If you have anything to say at all, please say it.
 
Last edited:

Hendryk

Banned
DominusNovus said:
Ooh, I'm having fun with this. I've finished up what happens in Rome during this period. Fun times. Caesar seems destined to die on the ides of March, 44 BC, no matter what. Crazy guy.
He may not have lived much longer anyway. Wasn't his health rather poor at that point?

DominusNovus said:
Something occured to me. With the Chinese having major contacts with the Roman Republic, what might they think of that form of government?
They certainly would have been surprised by the strange concept of several people sharing power, and actually debating policy. Did not the Master say:

"When good government prevails in the empire, ceremonies, music, and punitive military expeditions proceed from the son of Heaven. When bad government prevails in the empire, ceremonies, music, and punitive military expeditions proceed from the princes. When these things proceed from the princes, as a rule, the cases will be few in which they do not lose their power in ten generations. When they proceed from the great officers of the princes, as a rule, the case will be few in which they do not lose their power in five generations. When the subsidiary ministers of the great officers hold in their grasp the orders of the state, as a rule the cases will be few in which they do not lose their power in three generations. When right principles prevail in the kingdom, government will not be in the hands of the great officers. When right principles prevail in the kingdom, there will be no discussions among the common people." (Analects, 16:2)
 
The format of the TL is kind of strange - although not really of the usual TL's that are bonking around but more or less adjusted to your personality. It's good - I do like how you went with OTL's trend and bumped Caeser off. I suppose the Republic of Rome will last a wee bit longer than OTL, given it's strong historical legacy. I'm curious on if Marius's Reforms have kicked in yet. Is the usual format of Roman military based the hestatii-secondary-tritary ideal?

Good work BTW
 
G.Bone said:
The format of the TL is kind of strange - although not really of the usual TL's that are bonking around but more or less adjusted to your personality.
Not sure what you mean here? :confused:

G.Bone said:
It's good - I do like how you went with OTL's trend and bumped Caeser off. I suppose the Republic of Rome will last a wee bit longer than OTL, given it's strong historical legacy.
Yeah, I figured Caesar needed to be bumped off so that we could have a strong dictator thats not so nice. Caesar in this timeline will be remembered for his unwavering support of the Republican institutions. Which is a good thing, since I'll be naming a month after him whenever someone gets around to reforming the Roman calendar. There won't be an August though, it'll stay Sextilis or get named after someone else.

Yeah, it'll last longer.

G.Bone said:
I'm curious on if Marius's Reforms have kicked in yet. Is the usual format of Roman military based the hestatii-secondary-tritary ideal?
Marius' reforms went into effect slightly before the timeline began.

G.Bone said:
Good work BTW
Thank ya.
 
Hendryk said:
He may not have lived much longer anyway. Wasn't his health rather poor at that point?
Could be. He was 56 at the time. How much of his health was due to his genetics (the same as OTL), or his life experiences (tad different), I don't know. But, being dead saves us that problem.

Hendryk said:
They certainly would have been surprised by the strange concept of several people sharing power, and actually debating policy. Did not the Master say:

"When good government prevails in the empire, ceremonies, music, and punitive military expeditions proceed from the son of Heaven. When bad government prevails in the empire, ceremonies, music, and punitive military expeditions proceed from the princes. When these things proceed from the princes, as a rule, the cases will be few in which they do not lose their power in ten generations. When they proceed from the great officers of the princes, as a rule, the case will be few in which they do not lose their power in five generations. When the subsidiary ministers of the great officers hold in their grasp the orders of the state, as a rule the cases will be few in which they do not lose their power in three generations. When right principles prevail in the kingdom, government will not be in the hands of the great officers. When right principles prevail in the kingdom, there will be no discussions among the common people." (Analects, 16:2)

And to quote you from a PM:
Hendryk said:
they'd be fairly puzzled by the notion that power doesn't rest in the hands of a single ruler, and would likely consider it a decadent form of the pre-existing monarchy, eventually bound to either fall into anarchy or be taken over by a new, heavenly appointed sovereign. Which they might not call "emperor" as the one single emperor in the world, to which all other rulers theoretically owe fealty, is their own; but that'd be a complex philosophical issue for them: would a place so distant from the Center of the world still fall under the rule of the Emperor, or can there be two coequal rulers in the world, one for the Middle Kingdom and the other for the Far West?
The Republic is currently under the rule of one man, though the Senate is still doing the day to day running of things. So, this would seem to support the Chinese view.

On the other hand, the Republic existed, uncorrupted, since 509 BC, while the Han Dynasty has only existed since 206 BC, not all that long after China was initially unified.
 
It's a year by year basis with only two sentences on what happened within that period. That is what I meant.
 
G.Bone said:
It's a year by year basis with only two sentences on what happened within that period. That is what I meant.
Ah. Well, most actual chronologies are brief mentions of what happened at a point in time, sacrificing depth for length. Thats what I'm going for here. I've got the footnotes to go into detail when I think its needed. Which reminds me that if anyone thinks there's anything that deserves to be footnoted, I'm all for adding them in.

But, I'm hoping to get this timeline as far as possible, and with the original Roman Timeline, I felt like I was going into too much detail.
 

Keenir

Banned
DominusNovus said:
Ok, so, when this dictatorship falls, I'm going to have a sort of constitutional convention to reform the republic. Any suggestions on how to make the roman republic better? A few ideas I have:

1) Abolish the office of dictator completely. With Rome as large as it is, there's no need for it.

...until a new enemy (a Hannibal-type, perhaps) arises, requiring a single, concentrated response from Rome.

(c'mon, you know somebody in Rome's going to make that argument)


DominusNovus said:
4) Expand the assemblies. I'm thinking of creating a new assembly, the Colonial Assembly, for citizens living outside the City. So, heavily Romanized areas of the Republic (the rest of Italy, for example) would be organized into Agri Coloniae (Colonial Territories, colonial in the Roman sense, a settlement of Romans outside of Rome) which would sent representatives to Rome. This would be a kind of goal for the provinces to reach. If they play ball enough, they might eventually be admitted as a Colonial Territory.

wouldn't this be kind of a step down for the provinces? after all, aren't their goals to be full Romans? (ie, full citizenship after their military service)


or is this instead of whatever leads to the citizenship-for-service idea in Rome? *curious*
 
Keenir said:
...until a new enemy (a Hannibal-type, perhaps) arises, requiring a single, concentrated response from Rome.

(c'mon, you know somebody in Rome's going to make that argument)
Well, they might figure that with the entirety of the mediterranean basin under their control, they don't have to worry about any threats to Rome itself.

And then, you have the fact that, though there were two dictators appointed over the course of the second Punic War, Scipio defeated Hannibal without a dictatorship, simply a consulship. So there's evidence that you don't need a dictator to defeat the big threat. And, besides, the two guys to get the dictatorship against Hannibal weren't exactly stellar in their performance (though Fabius's delaying strategy was actually the best strategy, but not very sexy).

Keenir said:
wouldn't this be kind of a step down for the provinces? after all, aren't their goals to be full Romans? (ie, full citizenship after their military service)


or is this instead of whatever leads to the citizenship-for-service idea in Rome? *curious*
The provinces are subject territories ruled by Rome. A Roman colony is a settlement of Roman citizens with full rights as such. I'm expanding the concept of those colonies to a regional scale, and expanding the rights of the territory, by allowing them voting rights regarding the Republic itself.
 
originally posted by Dominus Novus
Ok, so, when this dictatorship falls, I'm going to have a sort of constitutional convention to reform the republic. Any suggestions on how to make the roman republic better? A few ideas I have:

1) Abolish the office of dictator completely. With Rome as large as it is, there's no need for it.
2) Limit the provincial governors, keep military and civil commands seperate. Something like the national guard might be available to the civil authorities, for defence, but nothing large.
3) Fudge the government into a 3 branch government ala the US. It might not be too hard. The Senate could be the judicial branch (sounds funny, but thats not too far from what they were in OTL). The various assemblies would be the legislative branch. As for the Executive branch, we could go with the Consuls, but I'm not sure. We'd have to seperate them from the Senate.
4) Expand the assemblies. I'm thinking of creating a new assembly, the Colonial Assembly, for citizens living outside the City. So, heavily Romanized areas of the Republic (the rest of Italy, for example) would be organized into Agri Coloniae (Colonial Territories, colonial in the Roman sense, a settlement of Romans outside of Rome) which would sent representatives to Rome. This would be a kind of goal for the provinces to reach. If they play ball enough, they might eventually be admitted as a Colonial Territory.

Thoughts? Suggestions? I really want input. If you have anything to say at all, please say it.

First of all sorry for my English, I am from Spain and unfortunately my level is not very good.

Hmm... It sounds very radical reforms for a society so conservative like Roman Republic.

a suggestion of a more moderate reform could be the same that emperors like Claudius and others begin: to expand the Senate to high classes of the provinces (I remember the discourse of emperor Claudius in favour to admit galic senators) and put the mechanisms to make it effective in a short term, this could give more support to Republic in the provinces without putting too much fear in conservative souls.

A question with Dacia conquered, the new limes of the republic is the Dniester in this part of Europe? In the future Roman Republic will have as limes the Elba?

With the early conquest of Dacia the conquests of Galia and Germania to make the limes to arrive to the Elba could be very interesting for the armies of the Republic
__________________
 
Iñaki said:
First of all sorry for my English, I am from Spain and unfortunately my level is not very good.

Hmm... It sounds very radical reforms for a society so conservative like Roman Republic.

a suggestion of a more moderate reform could be the same that emperors like Claudius and others begin: to expand the Senate to high classes of the provinces (I remember the discourse of emperor Claudius in favour to admit galic senators) and put the mechanisms to make it effective in a short term, this could give more support to Republic in the provinces without putting too much fear in conservative souls.
Well, I figure these reforms will be in the wake of the oppressive rule of Dictators, so the usurpers will be able to get away with quite a bit of radical reforms. In OTL, Sulla was able to completely strip the assemblies of their legislative powers during his dictatorship (but these were restored afterward). But I don't necessarily plan on implementing them all, just brainstorming. Though I am pretty set on the Colonial one, as I want to give the outlying regions more control.

As for admiting provincials into the Senate, all well and good (Caesar himself did so, IIRC), but how do you get that without a dictator/emperor? And it still wouldn't give them all that much power. Meanwhile, a permanent assembly for them, in Rome, would. We could make it the weakest assembly if we have to, of course.

Which reminds me of another idea, that a law must pass all (or most) of the assemblies. In OTL, a law was usually just presented to whatever assembly they wanted (usually the Plebian Council, since it was the most imformal and easy to reach). Perhaps with the reforms, a law would be required to pass through several assemblies.

Iñaki said:
A question with Dacia conquered, the new limes of the republic is the Dniester in this part of Europe? In the future Roman Republic will have as limes the Elba?

With the early conquest of Dacia the conquests of Galia and Germania to make the limes to arrive to the Elba could be very interesting for the armies of the Republic
I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you suggesting that the Elbe will be a border for Rome, with the Germans and Gauls on the west? If so, I thought of this, too. Would be pretty interesting on a map. Helps that the tribes in Modern poland were usually allied to Rome. But I think it'd be hard to pull off.

Oh, and welcome to the board!
 
Well respect to the limes I was thinking in the more conventional approach of having Galia and Germania conquered as roman provinces. a limes with the frontiers in the river Elba, Carpathian Mountains and the river Dniester.

But it would be too interesting (like you say) having the Gauls and Germans independents as for example vassal kingdoms and having the Elba as a frontier to this independents although vassal states.

Te idea of the Colonial Assembly is very interesting but it can be too cause of problems: if the members of Colonial Assembly considers that for example the Senate is too much Italocentric and that Colonial Assembly is not having sufficient power it could open the gates to secession and provincial rebellions.
 
Iñaki said:
Well respect to the limes I was thinking in the more conventional approach of having Galia and Germania conquered as roman provinces. a limes with the frontiers in the river Elba, Carpathian Mountains and the river Dniester.
Ah. In that case, almost definately. I tend to like to have the shortest possible European border for Rome. The best from my point of view is the Dniester-Vistula. The Dniester-Oder would work nicely, as well.

Te idea of the Colonial Assembly is very interesting but it can be too cause of problems: if the members of Colonial Assembly considers that for example the Senate is too much Italocentric and that Colonial Assembly is not having sufficient power it could open the gates to secession and provincial rebellions.[/QUOTE]
Well, there were plenty of rebellions in OTL. Especially during the 3rd century. Also, only really good provinces would be allowed to become colonial territories. And representation in the government at all would give them reason not to rebel.
 
Well the chance of the triumph of the reforms that you considers depend if there is a person, a roman state man, after this dictartoship falls that has the oratoria skill of Cicero and the sense of loyalty to the republic of Cincinnatus, it could be a person that unadverted at the beginning rises from the Populares faction a person very different that Caesar and Pompeius, with a true love to the republic (yes it sounds very idealistic but it could be possible:) ) like Cincinnatus an the wisdom of Ciceron, a man that defeats Titus Antonius and with the support of the people and a true respect to the Senate convinces this and the romans to make the necessary reforms that you suggests.
 
Iñaki said:
Well the chance of the triumph of the reforms that you considers depend if there is a person, a roman state man, after this dictartoship falls that has the oratoria skill of Cicero and the sense of loyalty to the republic of Cincinnatus, it could be a person that unadverted at the beginning rises from the Populares faction a person very different that Caesar and Pompeius, with a true love to the republic (yes it sounds very idealistic but it could be possible:) ) like Cincinnatus an the wisdom of Ciceron, a man that defeats Titus Antonius and with the support of the people and a true respect to the Senate convinces this and the romans to make the necessary reforms that you suggests.
I'm looking up what I'm naming the guy right now. :cool:
 
726 AUC
- Cast Iron technology first appears in Parthia.

727 AUC
- Titus Antonius captures Berenice VI in battle near Heliopolis, ending the independence of Aegyptus.

728 AUC
- Alarmed by the recent Roman conquests, Zariadres of Armenia and Pacorus of Parthia agree to attack Titus Antonius in support of the Pouplare rebels in Dacia, now led by the idealistic young general, Marcus Octavius Aquilinus.
- Zhao Di steps down as Emperor of Seres, to allow his grandson to reign as Xuan Di. [34]

729 AUC
- Titus Antonius leads a preemptive attack on the Parthians, defeating them near Carrhae.
- An Armenian army ambushes Titus Antonius' force outside of Tigranacerta. Though the Roman force evades the trap sillfully, Titus Antonius dies from infection in a wound received during the battle. [35]
- Titus Antonius' lieutenant, Marcus Aemilius Macer takes over command of the army and demands that the Senate declare him dictator. The Senate, however, declares Quintus Claudius Pulcher as dictator.

730 AUC (24 BC)
- Macer's army engages and defeats a Senatorial army outside of Leptis Magna.
- The Legions stationed in Thracia declare for Octavius and the Populares.
- The Satavahana Empire conquers the Kanva.
- The Pyu city state of Sri Ksetra unites its neighboring cities, forming the Pyu Kingdom. [36]

731 AUC
- Macer's army captures Rome. Pulcher and the Senate flee for Hispania. A rump Senate declares Macer to be dictator.
- The Populares under Octavius capture the northern parts of Anatolia, securing their supply lines with Armenia and Parthia.
- A Nubian army invades Roman Egypt. [37]

732 AUC
- Octavius defeats an army sent by Macer, taking Macedonia and Greece in the process.
- Macer defeats a Senatorial army in Gallia Narbonensis, taking the region from their control.
- One of Macer's armies defeats the Nubian invaders outside of Elaphantine, but is unable to pursue them back to Nubia.

733 AUC
- Pulcher formally steps down as dictator, though he remains in command of the Senatorial armies, and allies the Senatorial faction with Octavius. [38]

734 AUC
- The Populares defeat Macer near Brundisium, allowing them to take Rome. [39]
- Caratacas I succeeds Vercingetorix I as the High King of the Gallic Confederation.

735 AUC
- Octavius defeats Macer outside of Aquileia. Macer is brought back to Rome for trial, where he is sentenced to exile. The Roman Civil War, some 29 years old, ends.
- Octavius calls for a convention to reform the republic and codify the Roman Constitution and legal code. [40]
- Menander III succeeds Demetrius IV as the Indo-Greek King.

736 AUC
- Tigranes III succeeds Zariadres I as King of Armenia.

737 AUC
- The newly reformed and codified Roman Constitution is put into effect.[41]
- Xuan Di commissions new naval expeditions to outlying regions. [42]

738 AUC
- The independence of many of the territories conquered by Titus Antonius is restored, though they remain as client states. Judea and Cyprus, however, remain under direct Roman control.

739 AUC
- Noricum, an old ally of Rome, is annexed into the Republic.
- The Roman calendar is reformed. [43]

740 AUC (14 BC)
- The Roman Republic enters an alliance with the Gallic Confederation.
- Serean ports are established on Luzon.

741 AUC
- The new codification of Roman Law, the Corpus Juris Civilis, is passed.
- Gotarzes II succeeds Pacorus I as King of Parthia.

742 AUC
- A punitive expedition against the Nubians is dispatched by the Roman Senate.
- The Lex Octavia is passed, granting additional rights to heavily Romanized provinces. [44]
- Phraates IV succeeds Gotarzes II as King of Parthia.

743 AUC
- A Roman expedition against the Sarmatian tribes in Pannonia is dispatched, under the command of Octavius.
- Caratacas I extends the Gallic Confederation to the Rhine.
- Artaxias II succeeds Tigranes III as king of Armenia.

744 AUC
- Phraates IV of Parthia is assassinated. A civil war begins between two claimants, Vologases and Artabanus.
- The Kingdom of Jawa Dwipa, in Sumatra and Java becomes a vassal of Seres.

745 AUC
- The Romans sack Napata and Meroe and exact tribute from the Nubians.
- The Satavahanas invade the Indo-Greek Kingdom.

746 AUC
- The Marcomanni tribe of Boiohaemum establishes a kingdom under Maroboduus and allies with neighboring tribes against possible Roman agression.

747 AUC
- The Pannonian campaign concludes, with the entirety of the Danube river secured for the Roman Republic.
- Vercingetorix II succeeds Caratacas I as High King of the Gallic Confederation.

748 AUC
- Several Indo Greek nobles rebel against Menander and form independent states.

749 AUC
- Menander accepts peace with the Satavahanas, losing much territory in the south.

750 AUC (4 BC)
- Liuqiu is conquered by Seres. [45]

*****

[34] Xuan Di is in his early teens at the time of his succession and was a favorite of his grandfather, who continued to advise him while he still lived. Zhao Di had wanted to observe how his successor would rule, to ensure that he would rule well. Zhao Di, 68 at the time, would live for another 13 years.
[35] After this battle, Octavius asks that the Parthians and Armenians not invade Roman territory, to keep from damaging support for his cause. Instead, they send supplies and financial aid.
[36] The Pyu lived in Northern Burma, though they never united in our history, though Sri Ksetra was the most powerful city. Seems they were just too good Buddhists to go to war with anyone. So, Sri Ksetra probably united the city states diplomatically.
[37] This happened in our history as well.
[38] This act is largely symbolic as the Senatorial forces have been greatly depleted, but it adds legitimacy to the Populare cause. The Senate offers to appoint Octavius as dictator, but he asks for a consulship instead.
[39] Octavius does not bring his army to Rome itself, but only enters it with his supporters and those members of the legitimate Senate able to reach the city.
[40] This convention is dominated by the Populares, though it included several opposition statesmen.
[41] While the specific reforms of the constitution are many, the basic thrust of it was to equalize the classes of Rome. The number of voting tribes was increased and more equitably spread about Italia. The powers of the Senate and Centuriate Assembly, both long dominated by the elites, were greatly decreased. The office of Dictator and any similar position was completely abolished, while the office of Consul was slightly strengthened, and the term extended to two years, with the elections of the two consuls staggered. To guard against ambitious governors, the legions are taken from their command, while they are given auxiliary garrison troops for defense purposes. Further reforms were attempted, such as the creation of a new assembly, but these attempts failed.
[42] These expeditions follow the routes of the earlier expeditions to India, as well as exploring the outlying islands. The settlements established earlier are also greatly expanded, particularly the colony on the Isthmus of Kra.
[43] This reform is similar to the Gregorian Calendar of our history (just to avoid the messiness of the Julian Calendar being off). Quintilis is renamed in honor of Julius Caesar, though Sextilis retained its traditional name.
[44] The Lex Octavia establishes Agri Coloniae (Colonial Territories). Essentially, these were large regional colonies, rather than just cities and their environs. These territories were allowed to elect most of their own officials, though Rome still held a large sway over the rule of the territory. This law was a compromise measure, as Octavius had originally wanted to give the Agri Coloniae their own assembly in the Republic.
[45] Taiwan.
 
Comments? Thoughts? I demand them like a volcano demands virgins.

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