Germany Mass Produces Armored Cars?

[GlobalHumanism]

Historians often talk about the relative speed at which the German mechanized forces were able to advance, penetrate and subsequently encircle and pincer enemy forces from all sides.

They also discuss how the bulk of the regular infantry was the opposite, moving slow and steady from the rear.

So what if the German command, wishing to mechanize these forces as well, decides to cut production elsewhere (U-Boat maybe?) and put towards mass producing light and/or heavy armored cars?

From an infantry speed and effectiveness stand point in blitzkrieg, what effect would more 6 or 8 wheeled armored cars have on Operation Barbarossa and/or Case Blue, Fall Gelb, etc?

 

[Faeelin]

They run out of oil and the Allies win.

 

[Undeadmuffin]

They run out of oil and the Allies win.

Exactly, maybe it would have a small effect at the beginning but more the war is lasting and more of these would be immobilized as the oil would be required for the much more important panzer.

 

[GlobalHumanism]

Exactly, maybe it would have a small effect at the beginning but more the war is lasting and more of these would be immobilized and destroyed by their own crew.

Well that's the question isnt?

Could it have literally and figuratively "sped up" the war enough to avoid this?

 

[Richter von Manthofen]

Panzerspähwagen are no effective way to Transport infantry,,,

But in reality the (marching) Speed of Infantry is not relevant for the Speed you can push back the enemy.

Tabnks And APCs (and other fast Transport) are needed for breakthrough combat - GErmany could Need some more, but not for the bulk of the army.

What is way more important is the Transport volume you are able to lift for supplying your army. So the GErman Army might have needed more trucks and maybe more half-tracked Transport.

Overextending supply lines is usually more dangerous than slow Progress at the frontline.

 

[Ato]

Germany lacked trucks not AFVs.

Even worse than lacking trucks, what trucks Germany did have were of such diverse manufacture that the logistics of keeping the logistics force itself running were crippling in of themselves.

IIRC the Whermacht commenced operation Babarossa with over 1000 different types of trucks in inventory, and that only got worse as they added captured Soviet stock.

 

[Simon]

Could it have literally and figuratively "sped up" the war enough to avoid this?

Not really, for all the blitzkrieg was effective past a certain point it outran its logistical tail and had to pause to allow it to catch up and re-supply/carry out maintenance. The classic example is Russia - the armoured units are able to run rampant surrounding encircling large numbers of Soviet troops but then have to stop to allow the foot-slogging infantry and horse-drawn carts to catch up, then another lunge and pause, and so on with each advance extending and stretching Germany's supply lines. Considering how supply was the Wehrmacht's Achilles heel I'd suggest that they would have been better off building more lorries, of a standardised design, than these. It also brings up the question of if they're building the Panzerspähwagen, or more lorries, then what isn't being built in their place since there are only a finite amount of resources?

Edit: Gah, Ato beats me to it whilst I was typing.

 

[Driftless]

They would have been better served by more of the 4x4 Opel Blitz

However, the 4x2 wheel arrangement of the early Opel trucks left cross-country performance something to be desired. For the discerning military customer, there emerged a 4x4x form which included all-wheel drive performance (now adding the front axle to the mix) guaranteed provide for better off-road traction and speed. The wheelbase of the original truck design was also further shortened by nearly six engines to provide for better road grip. The 4x4 versions were further categorized in the German inventory under the blanket "Typ A" assignment to signify their 4x4 nature. Additionally, these particular vehicle forms were also known as "Allrad" vehicles for the same reason.

The Germans apparently produced about 130,000 units for the military through 1944. By comparisson, the US produced over 500,000 of the GMC "Deuce & a Half" 6x6 truck and another 200,000 of the Studebaker equivalent.

 

[nbcman]

They run out of oil and the Allies win.

+1 to this. Plus rubber and many other resources which were in short supply for the Germans. That is why I answered a huge effect which would be to degrade the ability for the Nazis to succeed in their early war plans.

 

[GlobalHumanism]

+1 to this. Plus rubber and many other resources which were in short supply for the Germans. That is why I answered a huge effect which would be to degrade the ability for the Nazis to succeed in their early war plans.

Wasn't oil use to fuel the seafaring U-Boats?

If production was diverted from those, so too could the oil reserved for naval usage...?

 

[Simon]

The Germans apparently produced about 130,000 units for the military through 1944. By comparison, the US produced over 500,000 of the GMC "Deuce & a Half" 6x6 truck and another 200,000 of the Studebaker equivalent.

Canada produced around 500,000 Canadian Military Pattern lorries, the UK manufactured a fair number themselves but of an annoying large variety.

 

[Cronos988]

I highly doubt Nazi Germany had the automotive industry to produce many more vehicles. If they could have motorized more of their infantry, they would have.

 

[Driftless]

Canada produced around 500,000 Canadian Military Pattern lorries, the UK manufactured a fair number themselves but of an annoying large variety.

But at least more of the running gear underneath was common with the CMP's (axles, differentials, springs, transmissions, transfer cases, etc)

 

[Simon]

But at least more of the running gear underneath was common with the CMP's (axles, differentials, springs, transmissions, transfer cases, etc.).

Oh yeah the CMPs were fairly standardised I was referring to merely the British lorries when talking about the large variety of models. I mean seriously, to quote myself from another thread

... they were using three different types of 0.75-ton lorry, three different types 1.5-ton vehicle, six different types of 3-tonners, I forget how many 6-ton but thankfully just one 10-ton lorry.

They made a stab at standardisation when mechanising in the inter-war years but then lost shed-loads of equipment during the retreat from France so had to go with what the various factories were set up to produce, plus the manufacturers were somewhat resistant to the idea of producing other company's vehicle. In an ideal world they would of had one vehicle for each of the five weight classes and as many common parts between them as possible, but as has been observed before it's not a perfect world.

 

[KACKO]

They would have been better served by more of the 4x4 Opel Blitz



The Germans apparently produced about 130,000 units for the military through 1944. By comparisson, the US produced over 500,000 of the GMC "Deuce & a Half" 6x6 truck and another 200,000 of the Studebaker equivalent.

Soviets alone manufactured during war some 150 - 170 000 trucks plus numbers of tractors and artillery movers.

 

[Simon]

The Germans apparently produced about 130,000 units for the military through 1944.

Just a thought but does that include the occupied nations as well or just domestic German production? I know that they pressured the French into handing over a large number of their lorries in North Africa and from Metropolitan France so I'm guessing they did likewise with other countries as well, plus Czechoslovakia had a rather large industrial production capability as well.

 

[KACKO]

Just a thought but does that include the occupied nations as well or just domestic German production? I know that they pressured the French into handing over a large number of their lorries in North Africa and from Metropolitan France so I'm guessing they did likewise with other countries as well, plus Czechoslovakia had a rather large industrial production capability as well.

However i believe Czechoslovak truck production was not so big.

 

[Driftless]

Just a thought but does that include the occupied nations as well or just domestic German production? I know that they pressured the French into handing over a large number of their lorries in North Africa and from Metropolitan France so I'm guessing they did likewise with other countries as well, plus Czechoslovakia had a rather large industrial production capability as well.

I beleive the 130k is just German made Opel's - and most of those were 4x2 drive, not 4x4's.

I quote this info from another forum regarding confiscated/impressed French trucks

by David Lehmann » 25 Nov 2007, 01:07

Hello,

I am not skilled in mechanics at all, but I am not sure one can generalize about French trucks being generally badly designed or not reliable etc. There are so many different companies, models, versions, modifications. Some might be worse than others, that's sure. And indeed I guess Russian mud and winter were hard for all kind of vehicles. There were also standard light/medium/heavy trucks beside all-terrain trucks like the Laffly series and halfracks.

Many French trucks (Laffly, Citroën, Panhard, Peugeot, Renault, Unic, Matford, Willeme, etc.) or halftracks (Citroën-Kégresse, Unic, Somua) were impressed (booties) in German service.

Then the occupied French industry produced also extra vehicles for the Germans:

- Berliet:
Various Berliet trucks were used by the German army (DGRA, GDC, GDM, VDCA etc.) and about 30 Berliet tank carriers were used by the Wehrmacht. During 1943-1944 e.g. 1,262 extra trucks (5t) were produced for the German army.

- Bernard:
A few Bernard trucks (fuel tank trucks etc.) were used by the German army.

- Citroën:
Many booty cars, trucks and halftracks (Citroën Kégresse P14, P17, P19) were captured and used by the Germans. The Citroën-Kégresse P19 = Ci380(f) can for example be found in the Schnelle Brigade West. Many other vehicles were produced for the Germans between 1941 and 1944 like for example:
- 3,700 type 23 trucks
- 6,000 type 32U trucks
- 15,300 type 45 trucks (the majority of the trucks of Schnelle Brigade West)

(snip)
- Ford:
At the beginning of WW2, the French Ford factories located at Poissy and Asnières were controlled by the Laffly company. They transformed 1,000 Ford trucks in halftracked trucks (Maultier) and produced spare parts for the Ford trucks captured in Europe.
(snip)

- Hotchkiss:
During the occupation, Hotchkiss produced spare parts, engines and several chassis for the Germans from 1940 to 1944 . Some Laffly vehicles (R15R, S20TL, W15T etc.) and several Hotchkiss personal cars (PKW Typ680, 686 and 686 PNA) were also produced for the Germans.

- Isobloc:
Numerous buses had been produced for the French army. Several W843M medical buses were used by the Germans. They could carry 30 lying wounded soldiers or a whole mobile chirurgical antenna.

- Laffly:
Many Laffly V15R, S15R, S20TL, W15T etc. were captured and used by the Germans.
A small number of armored SPW based on the W15T were produced for the Schnelle Brigade West.
(snip)

- Latil:
Many Latil trucks and utility vehicles had been captured by the Wehrmacht. Some of the heavier trucks (Latil TAR H2) were again produced for the German forces.

(snip)

- Matford (in Strasbourg, Alsace):
Matford was born from the fusion between Ford and the French Mathis company. A few trucks were produced but mainly spare parts for the French booty Matford trucks like the Matford F917.

- Panhard & Levassor:
About 2,000 Panhard trucks were delivered to the Germans army and about 1,000 couples of tracks for the SdKfz-7 have been produced.
(snip)
- Renault:
For Renault, most of the archives have disappeared during the allied bombings of 1944 but in François Vauvillier's book "l'automobile sous l'uniforme" it is indicated that about 28,000 Renault trucks had been produced for the Germans during the occupation (AHS, AHN, AHR, AGC, ADK, ADH etc.). The Renault factories were administrated by Prinz Von Urach (who will later be the press attaché of Daimler-Benz after WW2).
About 23,000 Renault AHS trucks were used by the Germans (captured and produced). From 1941 to 1944 4,000 Renault AHN and 2,000 Renault AHR had been produced for the German army. In 1943, 704 AGC3 were delivered. Renault produced also spare parts for the SdKfz-7 and SdKfz-11.

- Saurer:
Several trucks were still produced for the Germans, especially the Saurer type 3CT which was liked. For example between 1943 and 1944 some 1,800 3CT trucks were delivered to the Germans.

(snip)

- Willeme:
A few Willeme type DU10 (10t) heavy trucks were used by the German army.

Beside the booty vehicles, the main companies (Renault, Peugeot, Citroën, Panhard, Berliet and Saurer ...) produced about 90,000 new trucks for the German army between 1941 and 1944.

That is an enormous number of vehicles involved, but the spare parts logistics may have seriously impacted their utility.

*edit* BTW, I'm not the David Lehman that is quoted. I've seen his information elsewhere and he seems to be very knowledgeable about French WW2 military

 

[Caspian]

Wasn't oil use to fuel the seafaring U-Boats?

If production was diverted from those, so too could the oil reserved for naval usage...?

Just as important as oil is the production capacity for specific items. Industrial capacity is not totally fungible - you can't convert equipment used to manufacture submarine hulls into equipment used to make truck chassis or engines very easily.

 

[nbcman]

Wasn't oil use to fuel the seafaring U-Boats?

If production was diverted from those, so too could the oil reserved for naval usage...?

Assuming an average storage capacity of 100 tons of diesel per U-boat and a total of 45 operational u-boats at the start of WW2, that would yield about 5.1 million liters of diesel or 4500 tons if all of the operational u-boats were drained dry. Compare that to the 330,000 tons of fuel (including diesel) consumed per month during Barbarossa. Halting u-boat operations would not give much additional fuel.