German HSF Sortie March 1918 ~ V.III ~

[HMS Warspite]

Wehll the 15" barrels will not be needed..... Yet..... Dunno.....

Anywho,

If all the secondaries need replacing that is cool. I forgot the 5.9" were cruiser and destroyer guns as well. I was thinking WW2 & 8"! lol

The new turrets..... Pity they can't be taken from the Nassau Class but they were the same turrets as the Von der Tann. No doubt parts could be approprated but not whole turrets.

So 2-ish months for new turrets. Barrels can be swapped in as required. Secondarys swapped in as required.

Armor is custom to a class so that may take time. Propellor shaft..... mmm Pull one out of the Mackensteins or other 2 Bayerns? Possible I suppose. I doubt that BCs would be THAT much different between classes on the actual propellor shaft. The propellor is fine so are the engines. It is just a swap out there really.

Would three months be satisfactory to get those four ships 100% fully operational again? Mid to end of June for the last one?

Damagerepair depends on the extend of the damage. Propulsiondamage is far more difficult to fix, than damage on the outer parts of both hull and fittings, such as armament. A damaged shaft is only to be repaired, when the entire hull is opened, as is the damage or replacing of engines and boilers. With the presence of deckarmor, opening a ships hull is quite complex and done only when absolutley needed.

Most damage to the OTL Juttland battleships of the Hochsee Flotte was rather supervisual and limmited to mainly the outer layers of the ship, while propulsion was not basically affected. (appart from Lützow, which is why she was scuttled as she could not get fast enough to get clear of the action.) So most of the damage was repaired quite quickly, also because the docks at Wilhelmshaven were quite advanced and realy good equipped for the job. (at that time at least.) Portsmouth in the UK too was equaly up to this job, but most other dockyards were less advanced, so depending on where a ship went made a lot of difference.

 

[JedidiahStott]

The question would have to be asked , why repair them?

Realpolitik, the fleet's served it's purpose.

Sending it out in the first place was the right decision. It cost nothing, and the only risk was to morale if it was badly defeated.

In the event, it has been a great success.

But - the likelihood of being able to repeat such a success is very very small.

And at this point in the *war Germany needs to be looking for a negotiated peace - a way to get itself out of the shit. In TTL that might be possible - success at sea, success on land, Russia out of the war, those things can be bankrolled into credibility around the table. An approach to Britain might not be rebuffed. France of course would be problematic . But such matters can be resolved.

That is best served by reinforcing the success on land. The fleet, even if fully prepared can add little to that.

And, by the time the fleet can be seaworthy again, either the war's over , or Germany is staring down the barrel of total defeat , and the fleet is irrelevant.

If I were the Kaiser , I'd need a lot of convincing to put resources into anything more than cosmetic repairs (make the fleet LOOK OK, it's not going to go to sea anyway).

 

[Eternity]

The question would have to be asked , why repair them?

The HSF would want the fleet fully operational. Keep in mind that at the current TL time, the Army is doing fairly well. As such, the HSF ~ and everybody else ~ Would look post-war. Bit optimestic perhaps, but post-war the fleet would need to be operational.

But - the likelihood of being able to repeat such a success is very very small.

That would depend on the sortie. For example: If the whole fleet could sail undetected again and attack a Norway convoy.....? Success is relative to the operational brief at the end of the day.

And at this point in the *war Germany needs to be looking for a negotiated peace - a way to get itself out of the shit. In TTL that might be possible - success at sea, success on land, Russia out of the war, those things can be bankrolled into credibility around the table. An approach to Britain might not be rebuffed. France of course would be problematic . But such matters can be resolved.

And will be!

And, by the time the fleet can be seaworthy again, either the war's over , or Germany is staring down the barrel of total defeat , and the fleet is irrelevant.

True, the BCs I hope won't be operational by the end of the war ITTL. From a military point of view, the fleet would be irevellant, but from a political and economic view that may be different. An intact fleet after a successful land offensive is a powerful tool for argument.

If I were the Kaiser , I'd need a lot of convincing to put resources into anything more than cosmetic repairs (make the fleet LOOK OK, it's not going to go to sea anyway).

You forget how Wilhelm felt about the HSF. It was his **PERSONAL** fleet in his eyes. As such it is desirable for him to repair it. If the spares are readily available, then the fleet would start work as soon as they could. Things like whole new turrets would take the time and after war's end may be stopped. Until then however, they would be started I believe.



Knowing something about modern ship building/repair (It's my job after all!!) I can tell you that modern warship shafts can be un-bolted from the gearbox and pulled out the back. The new one is just pushed in and bolted on and away you go.

To be honest, I can't imagine things being THAT different in 1918. the Derfflinger's engines and propellors are ok and it is just one damaged shaft. As such, it should be a "pull out, repair shell, push new shaft in" type job. Time here would be making a new shaft if they can't take one off a Mackenstein. Unless I hear to the contary here, ITTL a Mackenstein shaft won't fit a Derfflinger.

 

[Eternity]

March 26th 1918

[SIZE=-1]As the Germans busied themselves with the task of repairing their damaged ships and stripping the SMS Von der Tann prior to scrapping her, Admiral Scheer took up his post at the Admiralstab replacing Admiral Holtzendorff who was retiring. Admiral Scheer's first task was to look into what lessons could be learnt from the sortie. The first and most obvious was that the British had attacked the fleet with aircraft and while their ships had put up AA fire, it had been ineffective. It appeared from the reports that while minimal damage had been done by the aircraft, it should be assumed that the British will design better aircraft that are capable of carrying bigger bombs, and that these bombs will be re-designed to be better at damaging ships. As such, German ships should carry more AA and it should be more effective. Ways of protecting ships should a bomb hit will also need to be looked into for future warships.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]His first tasks were therefore to order officers to look into what guns would be suitable to be carried on warships that would be appropriate for engaging aircraft whilst at sea. Long range high-angle and rapid-firing guns appeared best for this. In addition, attempts should be made to stop aircraft attacking ships at sea to begin with, and for any scout to be disposed of as quickly as possible so that it cannot report the position of German ships. As such, he ordered the appropriate departments to look into designing or converting suitable ships to carry aircraft at sea. Fighters to shoot down enemy bombers and scouts, and scouts with which to locate the enemy should be carried. For this he gave orders to look into the formation of a naval air squadron to man the aircraft that would be posted to these new ships.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]In Britain, the damage to their ships was being investigated now that they were all back in port. HMS Renown was put straight into dry-dock for her inspection. As her back was broken and given that to repair her would be expensive, the decision had to be made as to whether or not to rebuild the ship. Rear-Admiral Henry Oliver had put forward the proposal that all current Battlecruisers either be scrapped or rebuilt as Fast Battleships, and that all new construction fall into this category. Due to his proposal, the four Admiral Class Battlecruisers under construction were once again put on hold for redesigns or scrapping.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]As it is, the decision was made to repair HMS Renown as it would be quicker than building a new ship, and as she required extensive work she would be re-built as a Fast Battleship prototype, as would HMS Tiger. It was estimated that the rebuilds would take approximately 48 weeks for HMS Renown and 40 weeks for HMS Tiger. HMS Repulse and HMS Lion would be repaired and returned to the fleet, but if the conversions of HMS Renown and HMS Tiger proved successful, then these two ships would be re-built as well.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]HMS Repulse and HMS Lion did not have severe damage and could both be put right within 3 weeks inspections found, as could HMS New Zealand. All three ships would require dry-docking to repair underwater damage received during the battle. Both HMS Courageous and HMS Glorious had already been put into dry-dock, and work on them had been started. They would be repaired within a week the dockyards said, but one thing regarding their construction was clear. They were too lightly built to continue to serve with the Battlecruiser Squadrons, so once repairs were completed they would be relegated to convoy escort duties while considerations to their future were underway.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]The main causes for Royal Navy concern were two-fold. Firstly, the HMS Inflexible. She had been proved to be severely lacking in armor so should she be rebuilt? She had extensive under-water damage from three torpedo hits and her engines were also damaged. She was too old to be considered for rebuilding into a Fast Battleship, and it was impractical to do so. What was to be her fate? Repair and sell after the war or scrap now? As it happens, the second cause of concern for the Royal Navy saved her from the scrap-yard. There were only going to be 3 Battlecruisers in Royal Naval service after repairs were carried out, and before HMS Renown and HMS Tiger returned to the fleet. As such, HMS Inflexible was to be repaired and sold or scrapped after either the war ended or after HMS Repulse and HMS Lion exited their refits ~ If new ships were available before this, but the country was still at war, then she would be relegated to either training or convoy escort duties until war's end.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]At the end of the day, in the absence of available ships, the Royal Navy had to repair all of their ships no matter how badly they were damaged. As it is, the repair and rebuild estimates for HMS Renown and HMS Tiger provided woefully inaccurate with the complete rebuilds taking over 18 months each (Work on the ships slowed down considerably after the end of the war). A few years later, HMS Lion and HMS Repulse also received those same substantial rebuilds to rectify their known armor defects. When they emerged from their rebuilds, all four ships were re-classified by the Royal Navy as 'Fast Battleships' to reflect their new designs.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]In the Admiralty, the attempts of the aircraft to attack the retiring German fleet was also cause for discussion. Although they had done no damage, they had proved that it was possible to use aircraft to scout for enemy ships and attack them while at sea. A committee was formed to investigate the possibility of creating a Naval Air Force which would use the carriers under construction or conversion, and for new aircraft to be designed that were suitable for naval operation. In addition, ships would carry additional AA guns in case the Germans attempted to attack the Royal Navy with aircraft whilst at sea.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Elsewhere in England, and over the next several days and weeks, the Red Cross were hard at work visiting captured survivors on both sides of the conflict and managed to contact the appropriate authorities on each side of the battle and pass on the captured survivor lists to the appropriate people and the after action reports were modified accordingly and eventually read with the correct numbers of dead, missing and captured.[/SIZE]


March 27th 1918

[SIZE=-1]Minesweepers and minelayers in the English Channel have been busy since the 21st, and declared the Dover-Calais mine barrier secure again and the shipping routes for Dover-Calais free from mines and safe to travel. The Admiralty send a small squadron of destroyers over, escorting several merchant ships in ballast. All ships arrive in Calais safely and a troop convoy is immediately ordered over to support the collapsing Western front in France. Approaching Calais harbor, one of the troop transports ran into a submarine laid mine. Fortunately the ship sank slowly and within easy reach of shore and not many lives are lost, but convoys are again stopped on the Dover-Calais route as it was swept again and shipping revert to the longer but safer Southampton-Cherbourg and Southampton-Le Havre routes. The same day, five merchant ships sailing alone in the Eastern English Channel are reported to be attacked by submarines. One is damaged and turns back to England as it is closer than France, and two are sunk. The other two are believed to be false alarms.[/SIZE]

Continued in Post #80 on Page 4​

-----------------------------------------------

My logic behind the Tiger and Renown refits are these:
1) The RN would need a prototype for a 'Fast Battleship'. As Renown has a broken back and Tiger has wrecked upperworks, both need substancial work. As such, and given they will be in dock having that work for a long time, they are ideal candidates for prototyping.
2) As with HMS Belfast in 1939/40, it was cheaper and quicker to repair her than build a new cruiser to replace her. Same logic with these two.


See Post #80 for reference to below

The CVs listed are historic ones of the RN. I will also have Inflexable converted & renamed in the 1920's when the new Hoods arrive. She should be a good conversion as:
1) Fast.
2) Stripped of guns will be faster & lighter.
3) Got 6" armor. Ideal for CV.
4) Obsolite as BC.

I am having the 3 Light BCs put on hold for conversions so that trials can be conducted on the other four. Basically, they will end up OTL but no lower flying off deck.

Inflexable will be re-named and name will go to a G-3. Don't worry, I have worked out how they will be paid for & will cover that at the approprate time!! You may argue then if need be.

Oh and does anybody know how to work Springsharp? That warship calculator program? I am trying to sort out my K-2 Hood rebuild to see if it works but have never used the program before.


I think I can get her seaworthy at 50,000 tons on a K-2 hull size with 8x15" guns + K-2 secondaries (No. TT) & picking the thickest design armor thicknesses of both designs, but I am modifing a Queen Elizabeth hull! Need help! haha

I can post the report details if anybody is intrested.

 

[HMS Warspite]

Given the Post War thinking, or directly after the battle, the desission to even propse to repair a severly damaged CTL when the war was basically over, is a bit strange. If it was in the beginmning of a war, it made sense.

So I can follow the rebuilding of HMS Tiger, as she was hit hard, but basically in a sound condition still, at least in terms of hullintegritty. HMS Renown would propably need two to three years rebuilding, which is far too long to be economically logical, also given the fact the war was basically over and she was not needed that bad anymore. Scrapping her was more logical, while her place in the Fleet was to go to a replacement of the G-3 class, as this was a far more capable ship anyway. (perhaps even Repulse and Lion could be replaced by additional G-3 class battlecruisers, as HMS Repulse was big enough to be reconstructed as an aircraft carrier too, simmilar to the three smaller Fisher Battlecruisers. So HMS Eagle could be dropped as she was too small and too slow actually to become a good Fleet Carrier anyway. She could be rebuild again as the battleship she originally was to be, before the point of no return was reached and then sold to Chilli as planned. Possibly better still, as this brought in cash for newer constructions and so on.)

As fighting ships, the Renown and Repulse had one disadvantage over other battlecruisers, namely their smaller six gun armament, compared to the more normal eight or more on contemporary designs. Replacing them in the battlefleet for more capable ships, while their large hulls were of good use as aircraft carriers was a win - win scenario. With HMS Renown already a CTL, HMS Repulse would be the weakest link in the postwar fleet, as she was below standard in armament and protection. No rebuilding could fix this, as a fourth turret was not possible and armorprotection could only be increased partially, at the expense of a drop in speed. The other battlecruisers, HMS Lion and HMS Tiger were the second most powerfull, but HMS Lion was already a bit too worn out, by heavy service and in layout too inflexible, thus not very likely to be accepted to be rebuild, while only HMS Tiger, given her more modern layout was good for reconstruction as a fast battleship/battlecruiser.

The Hood Class could be postponed even more, eventually canceled in favour of themore advanced G-3 design. The K-2 and simmilar classes would be canceled in favour of the simmilar more advanced N-3 and simmilar designs.

The post Great War Royal Navy battlefleet would be reduced in total size, as all older Dreadnoughts adn battlecruisers from before the war, except the "holy" Iron Duke Class, would be deleted for service in the battleline. Some ships would be retained for other services, but not as fighting vessels.
The New FLeet would center around the core of the five Royal Sovereign and five Queen Elisabeth class Dreadnoughts, while the five Iron Duke's would be forming an additional Battlesquadron, until replaced in the mid 30's or so. The new G-3 and N-3 type would form the new core, after their construction was completed somewhere in the late 20's, reducing the 15 inch Fleet to secondary stations and Fleets, such as the Mediteranean Fleet. The Queen Elisabeth Class was also likely to be modernised more extensively than the Royal Sovereign's, given their greater fighting value.
The severaly reduced battlecruiser force would be reduced to nil eventually, after the completion of the last G-3, when the differences between fast battleship and true battlecruiser would be so great, that the type would become obsolete anyway. The Iron Duke class was likely to be patched up, until a new generation in the 30's and 40's would be created.

Aircraft Carriers would be used at first to get experience with the type and then possibly replacing the battlecruiser in its role of scout for the fleet, while also having the punch to deliver a strike on their own. For this, the Carriers needed to be swift and lightly protected by armor, as there still was a theoretical threath of enemy cruisers of the opposing force scouting units. So all had to have a speed of over 30 knots and needed p[rotection from the new fast light cruisers, scheduled to become the new Fleet Cruiser. (In the OTL, this was originally planned to be a 6 inch cruiser, but the Washington Naval Treaty shifted attention to the less desireable 8 inch type.)
The rebuilding of the three light batltecruisers and possibly Repule as well, woudl give the Royal Navy a core of Four Fast Fleetcarriers, all capable of operating a reasonable airgroup. HMS Hermes would be built as well to experiment mainly, while HMS Argus was to become a Trainignship for aviators. HMS Eagle was to be canceled as mentioned above. Further the development of the Fleet Carrier would more or less follow the OTL line, most likely. The removed 15 inch (and 18 inch) guns would be propably stored as reseves, or mounted on either monitors or as coastal batteries.

 

[Eternity]

Given the Post War thinking, or directly after the battle, the desission to even propse to repair a severly damaged CTL when the war was basically over, is a bit strange. If it was in the beginmning of a war, it made sense.

Perhaps, I have thought of that and need to modify my post a bit to make things more..... flexable..... regarding HMS Renown's fate. Consider the timeframe of this decision however. The RN has just lost 3 BCs & 1 BB. G3 & N3 not even started planning. Any new ship from the day of her going into dock will take 3-4 years to build. If the war was going well, then yes, you are correct. As it is, the HSF has just inflicted a material defeat on the GF and the Western front in France is collapsing under a German assault.

As such, I believe the RN would want her back as the war is very fluid and up for grabs right now. As it is, HMS Renown's guns are all ok and the forward half of the ship is intact. It is basically the stern engine rooms that are destroyed & the keel below them.

Should war end soon then the decision will have to be made whether to scrap or continue repair, yes I do agree there.

perhaps even Repulse and Lion could be replaced by additional G-3 class battlecruisers, as HMS Repulse was big enough to be reconstructed as an aircraft carrier too, simmilar to the three smaller Fisher Battlecruisers.

**cough cough** Sell sell.....

So HMS Eagle could be dropped as she was too small and too slow actually to become a good Fleet Carrier anyway. She could be rebuild again as the battleship she originally was to be, before the point of no return was reached and then sold to Chilli as planned. Possibly better still, as this brought in cash for newer constructions and so on.

As it stands ITTL her construction into a CV will be sped up but she will not be ready for ages yet. I was basically planning to use her as a testbed for the 3 Large CAs & BCs conversions and then have her as an aircraft transport, or sell her as by this time the RN will have a virtual monopoly on CVs so selling a crap one makes some sense!

OTL HMS Eagle was considered for re-conversion but a test ship for an islanded flight deck carrier was required..... HMS Eagle. HMS Hermes won't be ready until 1923 OTL but Eagle could be ready in 1919.....

As fighting ships, the Renown and Repulse had one disadvantage over other battlecruisers, namely their smaller six gun armament, compared to the more normal eight or more on contemporary designs.

Yep, but contempary designs had 12" or 13.5". These ships may have only had 6 barrels, but they were 15" and as such, the largest BC calibre in the RN. With the new G3s though, they would be very obsolite. I would have thought the RN would keep them until the new ships come online and then decide.

Replacing them in the battlefleet for more capable ships, while their large hulls were of good use as aircraft carriers was a win - win scenario.

In time, in time.....

Yeah, Hood is being posponed and I am playing with springsharp. I really like the Admirals so really want to keep at least one of them (Maybe Hood to a more advanced design, rest scrapped?)

I must say though, I was reading that the RN may not have scrapped much of it's post WWI fleet if there was no Washington Treaty. Mothballed, yes, but not scrapped. Older ships could not stand in a battle line, but as was proved in WW2, even old and slow ships can be put to good use by being floating batteries covering landings, or as convoy escorts as a smaller ship would not attack a convoy with them in.

As I am only planning May at the moment though, I still have time to write my new decisions into the story.

Still need to figure out how the RN gets a Bayern Class BB..... hummmmm

 

[HMS Warspite]

For the last part, replace Bayern for one of the two incomplete halfsisters, Würtemberg or Sachsen, who could be used simmilar to the Bayern in the OTL, or the USS Washington and IJN Tosa. Another option is to use the incomplete hull of HMS Hood, or one of her sisters.

 

[Eternity]

Well, which ship the RN gets to experiment with really depends on what naval treaty Germany will sign. As in, what is her limit in terms of ships and tonnage.

I know what Grimm Reaper will suggest here and am still thinking of my options. I think that if France balances Germany army wise..... GB can balance her navy wise..... Something like the 1936 Anglo-German Naval Agreement may be best.....

35% (Or the like) Gross RN tonnage in every catagory except subs which are banned. Within the catagories (BB, Fast BB, CA, DD, CV etc) the HSF can build as they wish but say limit guns to 15". If the RN is going to 18" (N3) this gives them a major advantage in combat, further limiting the HSF.

 

[JedidiahStott]

You forget how Wilhelm felt about the HSF. It was his **PERSONAL** fleet in his eyes. As such it is desirable for him to repair it. If the spares are readily available, then the fleet would start work as soon as they could. Things like whole new turrets would take the time and after war's end may be stopped. Until then however, they would be started I believe.

Rather, I tend to forget how abysmally stupid Wilhelm was. However, he did have some rather more intelligent advisers.

Who might point out , that the peace negotiations were not going to be easy, no matter how well the Army was doing. And that the idea of challenging GB for naval supremacy hadn't worked, at all. And that if GB perceived that challenge still open, those negotiations would become immensely harder.

Whereas, if the Reich were to make a magnanimous gesture, recognising British naval hegemony (in return for a reciprocal recognition of German military hegemony), said gesture being to offer to scrap the HSF, despite it being a splendid fighting force, etc, then those negotiations become a LOT easier. Sucks to be France of course.

Of course if the fleet is to be a bargaining counter, spending money on it would be illogical.

What would Bismarck have done, we ask?

 

[HMS Warspite]

Well, which ship the RN gets to experiment with really depends on what naval treaty Germany will sign. As in, what is her limit in terms of ships and tonnage.

I know what Grimm Reaper will suggest here and am still thinking of my options. I think that if France balances Germany army wise..... GB can balance her navy wise..... Something like the 1936 Anglo-German Naval Agreement may be best.....

35% (Or the like) Gross RN tonnage in every catagory except subs which are banned. Within the catagories (BB, Fast BB, CA, DD, CV etc) the HSF can build as they wish but say limit guns to 15". If the RN is going to 18" (N3) this gives them a major advantage in combat, further limiting the HSF.

I think, this treaty may be considered as a loss of the war by the Germans, which was not accaptable. The limmitations are not fair enough, given the scenario.

More likely the British and Germans would consider a more evenly matched treaty based on equality, where the Germans would be allowed to retain a fleet about half the size of the British, and no other exclusions, since the Germans would not accept a prohibitation of the submarine, since the other naval powers did not stop building them. (A Dictate was possible only, when Gemrany was made a looser in the Great War, which is not the case in this scenario.)

It meant, the British would go to 18 inch, so the Germans could do as well. (In reality it would not be likely, since the Germans had other things to conectrate on first.) Likely the Germans would scale down a bit in shipbuilding, but not stop entirely, more to economical reasons, than anything else. Its fleet would be containing mainly prewar built BB's and BC's, with a lote of heavy service and damagerepairs, so only the newest ones of the Bayern Class would be possibly fit for postwar service, perhaps with the new Mackensen Class as well. The older Nassau and Oldenburg Classes would face a simmilar fate of he British first generation Dreadnoughts, being outclassed by newer ones, so of little value in a future fleet. The Kaisars and Königs were good, but a bit too worn out by warservice. They would be retained at first, simmilar to the British 13.5 inch Dreadnoughts, as a stopgab for later new construction.

It seems reasonable the Germans would not lay down any new Dreadnought in the twenties, but restart building them in the thirties, given the priorities of the period immidiately after the Great War ended. This was not a disadvantage but a chance, as the Germans could build newer more modern ships then, while the competition was stuck with mainly older refitted vessels.

 

[Eternity]

Very true, very true.

I am trying to figure out the peace negociations now! Based upon the ones I suggested for the re-write.

I have a tiny problem that I would appreciate help with solving though. France would want The Treaty of Versailles ~ To destroy Germany, and she puts those points forward. Other allies are furious over this as Germany had proposed reasonable and fair points that they agreed to.

After negociations, France still wants harsh points. How do I have them change their minds without continuing the war?

Thanks

 

[HMS Warspite]

Very true, very true.

I am trying to figure out the peace negociations now! Based upon the ones I suggested for the re-write.

I have a tiny problem that I would appreciate help with solving though. France would want The Treaty of Versailles ~ To destroy Germany, and she puts those points forward. Other allies are furious over this as Germany had proposed reasonable and fair points that they agreed to.

After negociations, France still wants harsh points. How do I have them change their minds without continuing the war?

Thanks

France might have wanted a humiliating treaty for the Germans, but was not in the possition to demand it, since both its most powerfull allies, UK and USA were unwilling to do so, given their own interests in Germany (mainly trade and ballance of Power issues.) France was to back down, wether it liked it or not. Parts of France were still occupied shortly before the Armistrice, according to the scenario, so what would France be thinking, with german troops at the gates of Paris, already occupying the industrial North East of the state?

Perhaps a bit of presure on the French from both the UK and perhaps the USA could do a lot of work for you, in formulating a treaty. France still had colonial territory, which was not very much liked by both the UK and USA, so was France up to concessions, or not. If France rejected the treaty, the former Allies could make more stronger demands on their unwilling ally, rather than focussing on Germany. This was not at all in the interest of France.

 

[Eternity]

Thanks. France is now told by American and England that they should back of and go on to drop some strong hints..... France backs down! lol


I mentioned that I was messing with Panzerschliff 'D' as a possible future HSF ship. This is what springsharp threw at me regarding my work. She is meant to be something of an insanely heavy cruiser ~ A commerce raider or convoy escort in essence. I took the basic Panserschliff 'D' design and tweaked it.

Comments on the ship please!
Laid down 1928

Displacement: 17,116 t light; 18,015 t standard; 20,000 t normal; 21,588 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(211.71 m / 207.00 m) x 25.60 m x (7.67 / 8.12 m)

Armament:
6 - 11.00" / 279 mm 45.0 cal guns - 661.40lbs / 300.01kg shells, 150 per gun (Same as Graff Spee 1934)
8 - 5.90" / 150 mm 28.0 cal guns - 99.87lbs / 45.30kg shells, 150 per gun (Same as Scharnhorst 1938)
10 - 4.10" / 104 mm 33.0 cal guns - 32.08lbs / 14.55kg shells, 500 per gun
8 - 21.0" / 533 mm, 23.58 ft / 7.19 m torpedoes - 1.544 t each, 12.354 t total (As per Graf Spee 1934 but midships)

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 450.00 ft / 137.16 m 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 450.00 ft / 137.16 m 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Main Belt covers 102 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 500.00 ft / 152.40 m 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Armoured deck - multiple decks: 3.50" / 89 mm

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 96,968 shp / 72,338 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 15.00 kts
Complement:
840 - 1,093

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16,608 lbs / 7,533 Kg = 25.0 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 4.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
Metacentric height 5.4 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 15.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.13
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a round stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.488 / 0.497
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.09 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.06 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 92.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 141.7 %
Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

I like that last line. Makes it easier to shoot at things!

I used the below picture as a basis of the layout and she would look like it. No doubt experience would mean a new bow like Scharnhorst to make her a drier ship forward.

That piccy is from here: http://www.phpbbplanet.com/warshipp...postorder=asc&start=30&mforum=warshipprojects I did not make it or anything ~ But I plan to..... A radio controlled model that is! haha

 

[MerryPrankster]

This is an interesting TL.

Now what?

 

[HMS Warspite]

Interesting design, but quite simmilar to the "Improved Panzerschiff" mentioned in Breyer's works. He mentioned a new "Panzer Schiff" as: "Kreuzer P", of some 20,000 tons and with a seaspeed of 35 knots, combined with the same fightingcapacity of the original Panzerschiff Deutschland.

I was actually more thinking on a bigger true capital ship, which Germany could construct, as it was not bound to limmiting treaties, such as the OTL Washington Naval Treaty, or a Versailles. Germany wanted to intimidate teh Royal Navy, with technically superior ships. A more normal sized battleship, with excelent protection, good speed and perhaps a little smaller than contemporary, big gun. A sort of H-Class with some 70,000+ tons and eight 16 inch, or 16.5 inch (406, or 420 mm) would be great, being intimidating and still accaptable to build, comaprable to simmilar sized ships of the USSR and Japan, but with a slightly lesser main armament. The British would be able to tackle this design in the far fture, but needed to rebuild their entire infrastructure of yards and drydocks. Germany already had very large docks and yards for this purpose.

Directly after the Battle of Jutland in th OTL, the Germans designed a follow up for the Bayern class of around 42,000 tons with eight 16.5 inch guns, but never realy considered it to be build. How it was to look like is unknown, but given her caracteristics, she might very well be simmilar to Bayern, as it was intended to be a slow 22 knot traditional battleship, suplemented by faster battlecruisers of the Erzats Spee class, or improved Mackensen.

PS, I am also using Springsharp for this and have some designs like the ones mentioned.

 

[Eternity]

This is an interesting TL.

Now what?

Thanks. Now I am going to finish kicking the crap out of Italy in Empire: Total War.

Oh wait..... Wrong forum!

I am writing April/May/June together as they are basically the run up to peace and the peace treaty and need to be considered together.

I'm not too happy with the reason for Germany seeking peace so may go back and re-write all that.....

Hopefully get it sort of sorted out over the weekend though.

 

[Phoenix]

Interesting.

About radio signals, etc.

The Germans never believed that the British had cracked their code until after WW2, they happily continued using wireless to signal each other. They believed that the reason the British sortied for Jutland was a spy in the harbour.

Ammunition:

The Greenboy ammunition will have been issued to the fleet, and the 13.5" and 15" shells will now work properly, and not break up all the time. Damage to the German ships would be correspondingly heavier.

Torpedoes:

British Fleet orders for receiving torpedo attacks was to turn towards the enemy, unlike at Jutland.
Torpedoes were useless at Jutland, and would be useless here. Hit rate was approximately less than 1%. One ship in each battleline was hit by a torpedo during the main battle.

 

[Eternity]

About radio signals, etc.

The Germans never believed that the British had cracked their code until after WW2, they happily continued using wireless to signal each other. They believed that the reason the British sortied for Jutland was a spy in the harbour.

Really? I never knew that but fair enough. This has been discussed in the previous topic to be honest and the change is put down to a 'What if.....' question from an officer, so codes are changed 'Just in case'.

Ammunition:

The Greenboy ammunition will have been issued to the fleet, and the 13.5" and 15" shells will now work properly, and not break up all the time. Damage to the German ships would be correspondingly heavier.

British ships have the 'Green-Boy' Shells ITTL. The reason more damage is not done is because of the hit/miss ratio. To give an example of this. In 1941 when HMS Rodney and HMS King George V went up against the DKM Bismarck, they fired something like 2800 14" & 16" shells. Modern estimates put the ammount of hits scored on the Bismarck at 400 shells.
Given that:
a) The Bismarck was virtually stationary.
b) The Rodney and KGV engaged at 1-2 miles.
c) The Rodney and KGV were using more accurate computers and had radar.

This shows that naval shooting is very much a hit and miss affair in WW2, even when engaging a virtually stationary target. Yes there are fluke hits however. The point is, out of 2800 shells fired if only 400 hit then this is an average of 1 hit and 7 misses in 8 shells fired.

In my story, the ratio is worse than this (14 years earlier, and ships manouvuring after all) so very few hits are scored. Those hits that are scored do more damage however.

Torpedoes:

British Fleet orders for receiving torpedo attacks was to turn towards the enemy, unlike at Jutland.

Torpedoes were useless at Jutland, and would be useless here. Hit rate was approximately less than 1%. One ship in each battleline was hit by a torpedo during the main battle.

I did not know that the British would turn toward torpedoes in 1918. 'Ends on' obviously minimised the chance of a torpedo hit (Smaller target). I had them turn away because:
a) Jutland
b) Proximity to German ships
c) Torpedoes launched at 1000 yards. Turning away gives more time to complete a turn. If you turn towards, you decrease the time before hit and therefore run the risk that you have not completed your turn, thus allowing more torpedoes to hit you.

 

[Eternity]

April is Re-written. See post #81 on Page 5​

 

[rast]

Hm, German soldiers knew that they were fed crap and clothed in 'Ersatz', while the Entente had all luxuries desired. That was no secret. There were trench raids even during 'normal times' to bring that knowledge home.
So, discovering more luxuries would hardly have been a surprise.

Nobody would be shot for stealing food, stealing food was normal. Everybody did it whenever the opportunity arose.

An officer alone never could have a soldier shot for such an offense. A regular court martial was needed, involving at least three officers.
If a Major gone wild would have tried, the most probable outcome was that he would have been shot in the back by his men - or suffered another accident. 'Disposing' of unpopular superiors was not unknown in the German Army.