Stalin can also play the long game very well. For example, look at his support for Chiang against Mao.
Feel the Bearn - A Timeline of France's Only Carrier in WWII and Beyond
- Thread starter Seafort
- Start date
This. Support the Frogs nicely and you get tons more than what you'd get occupying them. In terms of cultural influence, both internal and external, a French ally would be extremely beneficial for the USSR, becoming a stabilizing element reinforcing the Soviet influence all around the world, especially if the decolonization can be done under a Soviet leadership. This would mean "brother countries" all across Africa and Asia, possibly under explicit Soviet protection. Furthermore, Soviet leadership is inevitably going to see this ally as economical testing grounds where a mixed socialist-capitalist economy can be established without being a direct threat to their internal power. Way too much to win with a cooperative population that is legitimately thankful for the support than with a resentful one under expensive de facto occupation: after all, if there is a real level of independence, you don't get blamed for the local failures while you can still reap the benefits of the successes.
McPherson
Banned
Hmm. There is the Algeria problem, but I do not see the Soviet-French socialist congruence ATL being too outre' in possibility as described above. The problem, I see, is again, de Gaulle. HE might have an ego and an opinion that France can spurn everybody. RTL I believe he was right and so acted. As an American I find him to be remarkable. He sort of equated France with his own personal "honeur" and "that honeur" could and did move mountains.
It's not a WMD. On the surface, it's totally innocuous. But the "package" may change history.
Give the guy credit, he played a weak hand very very well an he served his country's best interests.
My problem with DeGaulle getting in bed with the Soviets is that it goes against his basic personality. Ignore, for the moment, that he was anticommunist. Le Grand Charles was not so stupid as to think that once he got in bed with Stalin that he would able to get out, or who would be on top. An alliance with the USSR, especially a close one, is going to energize and enable the French communist party and DeGaulle will have to watch his back as there might be a coup (think Czechoslovakia) and for sure they will have more representation from free elections.
You don’t mean... Corsican overripe cheese, sent to London raw? You monster!
This assumes that Stalin would want to make an alliance with France. IMO, he won't. As I noted before, Stalin is expecting the capitalists to have WW3 with each-other. No way does he want to be part of that. But I can totally see him being willing to stir the pot.
fasquardon
Rang a bell. He was one of those who deserved a cute, little, white jacket, and a small rubber cell.
However, considering Stalin's patience and paranoia, don't you think that he would just sit back and watch, goading them from the sidelines and metaphorically eating popcorn?
If the democracies duke it out with each other, they can't turn on him, after all.
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McPherson
Banned
Perhaps... but then again, the Russians thought Stalin was a danger to them, too.
I, for one, still need a lot more convincing that they offed him when he was obviously losing his own marbles, but it is intriguing. It sure would explain why Beria had to go, PDQ.
Not only that, but there are problems with compartmentation, the stern design, the shaft alleys, etc.
The USN's monitors were not exactly Ships of Theseus as they were mud.kissers.
No. ASB all the way. Roosevelt hated de Gaulle so much that it is lucky that the two men could meet in the same room at all.
This is far more likely.
Truman was a power politician. If it had his state's name on it, she was sliding down the weighs first.
Let me write again; Roosevelt hated de Gaulle. And anyway, if there was going to be a "conversion", it would be more likely that the Americans would steal Normandie and turn her into a flattop.
The timing doesn't work. Normandie capsized in January 1942. The Free French requested the Bearn refit over a year later.
McPherson
Banned
General characteristics
Tonnage: ……………………………………….79,280 GRT;83,423 GRT
Displacement: ……………………………….68,500 tons (est.)[3]
Length:………………………………………….. 981.33 ft (299.1 m) pp/1,029 ft (313.6 m) o/a
Beam:…………………………………………….117.9 ft (35.9 m); 119 ft 5 in (36.4 m) (flight deck)
Height:……………………………………………184 ft (56.1 m)
Draft:………………………………………………..37 ft (11.3 m)
Depth:………………………………………………57.6 ft (17.6 m)
Decks (after hanger installed):………….8
Installed power:………………………………..Four turbo-electric, total 160,000 hp (200,000 hp max).[4]
Propulsion:……………………………………….Four 3 bladed on launch - later 4 bladed
Speed:………………………………………………Designed speed 29 knots (54 km/h; 33 mph), max speed recorded 32.2 knots (59.6 km/h; 37.1 mph)
Capacity: ………………………………………….(troops) ;4,972, admiral and staff 120, 900 air division
Crew:……………………………………………….1,345
Proposed armor scheme.
…………………………………………………………torpedo bulge 2/3 hull length
…………………………………………………………2 inch STS steel plate over central hanger overhead and machinery spaces.
Armament………………………………………..up to 16 x 5/25 AAA guns, sponsoned dual mounts.
………………………………………………………….either 15 x 4 quad 1.1 inch or 16 x twin 40 mm Borfors.
………………………………………………………….as many 20 mm Oerlikons as practical.
Air complement (2 elevator feed circuit hanger = 22,500 cubic meters, 4 compartments)
………………………………………………………….. 24 fighters
……………………………………………………………36 dive bombers
....................................................18 torpedo planes
…………………………………………………………..78 planes +16 spares triced in storage.
=======================================================
Sometime in 1943, in SWPOA Arthur Carpender is yakking it up with Thomas Kinkaid after that admiral screws up at Santa Cruz and reduces the USN to borrowing a British flattop to make ends meet. Yup, the USN is down to one "damaged" carrier in theater and operations are stalled for the next foreseeable nine months.
Along comes the USS Laugh-it-up, and both admirals look at her with jaundiced practiced eyes.
Carpender: Hey, Tommy, that sure is one hunk of French fried porte-avions manure, the Brooklyn Navy Yard churned out.
Kinkaid: It has one great virtue, Arthur.
Carpender: What's that?
Kinkaid: It's here, it's free because we stole it, fair and square from Vichy, and we can use it without political strings from our "friends". And it works. Good engines, decent hull, stable launch platform. Which means we're operational again.
Carpender: You mean that?
Kinkaid: Course I do. The trouble with you, Art, and why you will never make CNO, is that you never see the bright side. Get a bag of potatoes? Make an se ge gan se uggle (フランスの揚げ空母).
Carpender: I didn't think about that part.
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That is true. Then again, that is internal politics, not foreign politics.
Chapter 2 - A Deal With The Devil
June 4, 1945 (11:05 AM EST)
The British had found the Bearn. A force of 58 British aircraft began their descent on the French carrier. But they were not alone. All available aircraft had been dispatched by Captain Auboyneau, even torpedo planes. The last had taken off only two minutes before the first British bomber appeared in the sky. The battle was joined in the sky as the French fought to save their ship.
Many miles away a lone Cessna JRC-1 headed west. It had taken off 15 minutes earlier, flying in the opposite direction from the massing French air defense. The British made no notice of the lone aircraft as it left the raging battle behind.
The British had found the Bearn. A force of 58 British aircraft began their descent on the French carrier. But they were not alone. All available aircraft had been dispatched by Captain Auboyneau, even torpedo planes. The last had taken off only two minutes before the first British bomber appeared in the sky. The battle was joined in the sky as the French fought to save their ship.
Many miles away a lone Cessna JRC-1 headed west. It had taken off 15 minutes earlier, flying in the opposite direction from the massing French air defense. The British made no notice of the lone aircraft as it left the raging battle behind.
Chapter 2 - A Deal With The Devil
June 4, 1945 (11:22 AM EST)
Transcript of conversation between President Harry Truman and Prime Minister Winston Churchill, published in "Showdown 1945: The Levant Crisis" (2014) by Max Hastings
"Mr. Prime Minister, this has to end. This has to end now."
"End? Mr. President, it has only begun. It is the requisite duty of the British people to see that the rogue elements of General De Gaulle are brought down."
"Damn it, you bombed Paris! Do you understand what you have done? Thousands of soldiers from both of our nations have died in defense of that nation! You are serving to nullify everything that we have fought and bled for!"
"Preposterous, Mr. President. We seek to save France. We fought and bled to stop Hitler, and now we fight to make certain that another does not arise in his place."
"De Gaulle may be many things, but he is no Hitler. The United States demands that you cease this action against France immediately."
[break of 15 seconds]
"Do you hear me Winston?"
"Of course, Mr. President. My answer remains unchanged. De Gaulle acted first, and the British Empire will facilitate his removal."
June 4, 1945 (11:25 AM EST)
Transcript of communication between Prime Minister Winston Churchill and First Lord Brendan Bracken:
"It is done, Prime Minister. We have engaged and sunk the Bearn."
Transcript of conversation between President Harry Truman and Prime Minister Winston Churchill, published in "Showdown 1945: The Levant Crisis" (2014) by Max Hastings
"Mr. Prime Minister, this has to end. This has to end now."
"End? Mr. President, it has only begun. It is the requisite duty of the British people to see that the rogue elements of General De Gaulle are brought down."
"Damn it, you bombed Paris! Do you understand what you have done? Thousands of soldiers from both of our nations have died in defense of that nation! You are serving to nullify everything that we have fought and bled for!"
"Preposterous, Mr. President. We seek to save France. We fought and bled to stop Hitler, and now we fight to make certain that another does not arise in his place."
"De Gaulle may be many things, but he is no Hitler. The United States demands that you cease this action against France immediately."
[break of 15 seconds]
"Do you hear me Winston?"
"Of course, Mr. President. My answer remains unchanged. De Gaulle acted first, and the British Empire will facilitate his removal."
June 4, 1945 (11:25 AM EST)
Transcript of communication between Prime Minister Winston Churchill and First Lord Brendan Bracken:
"It is done, Prime Minister. We have engaged and sunk the Bearn."
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