Fear Not the Revolution, Habibi: A Middle East Timeline

Status
Not open for further replies.
Gee, I wonder which side each of these guys is on...? :rolleyes:

More seriously, once you filter the obvious bias, this is a rather interesting update. Frankly, Allon looks like he's taking a pretty typical repressionist tack, with bread and batons, so to speak. Economic development to make people content, police/military repression to make them unwilling to speak up. It will probably work pretty well for a while, at least; it has in China. Of course, Israel is a lot less (potentially) self-supporting than China...
 
Last edited:
Gee, I wonder which side each of these guys is on...? :roll eyes:

More seriously, once you filter the obvious bias, this is a rather interesting update. Frankly, Allon looks like he's taking a pretty typical repressionist tack, with bread and batons, so to speak. Economic development to make people content, police/military repression to make them unwilling to speak up. It will probably work pretty well for a while, at least; it has in China. Of course, Israel is a lot less (potentially) self-supporting than China...

Indeed, although once again Milman shows through as the less... controlled one of the two.

As for the China comparison, the repression is much lighter than even the modern PRC. Repression is pretty targeted towards the media and political activists, and if you stay within the lines, even 'loyal' political opposition is allowed. You won't be successful, but you will get a spot in the Knesset and potentially a chance at a ministerial portfolio if you are particularly successful. The centrist liberal factions, particularly if Tekumah wants to tack right politically, will be potential allies. Basically, as long as you don't challenge the regime's legitimacy or ask too many questions, you're all right.

Allon and his clique may not even think they are running a dictatorship; rather, they, military men and defenders of Israel, are protecting the nation from rabble-rousers who want to destroy everything good about Israel. When democracy is threatened, even the founders of the state thought that extraordinary measures might need to be taken... :rolleyes:
 
I recognize only Allan, Rabin, and Parez. I wonder what foreign relations will be like with Isreael under a junta-like government.
 
I recognize only Allon, Rabin, and Perez. I wonder what foreign relations will be like with Israel under a junta-like government.

Not that much different; the United States has gotten over itself, and there are much more repressive governments out there. Israel's claim to be the 'only democracy in the Middle East' may be a bit more shaky that it already was, but not too much will change from being a soft dictatorship.

Israeli foreign policy could change a whole plethora of other reasons though :p

Allon Israel sounds like vanilla version of Suharto's Indonesia.

Minus the genocide and with a semi-functioning parliament, yes.
 
Last edited:
Given Baror's comments that Allon's policies will be undermined by later governments mean simply the end of his economic and foreign policies or will it mean the end of the Special Period. Also the Two Seas Canal sounds crazy ambitious. I wonder what the Palestinians and the Egyptian think of the project.
 
I assume both of them are telling a piece of the truth, once the more... opinionated rhetoric is filtered.

It's interesting (and heartening) to see two Arab ministers: in OTL, there were non-Jewish deputy ministers during this period, but Mapai still thought of its Arab affiliates as clients rather than partners and never appointed one to a full portfolio. And of course, even that ended with the Likud victory, not to return until the 1990s. Allon seems to be changing the traditional Mapai attitude, especially since one of the Arab ministers isn't stuck in a minority affairs slot and might have actual power over development in the Galilee.

I'd like to see where this leads, and whether Arabs will start to feel a real stake in the state as they did in OTL during (and only during) Rabin's second term. And I wish that part of TTL were OTL, although that should go without saying.
 
New Order's "progressivism" is up for debate, I'd say. If you mean forced draft industrialization and containing religious radicals then yes, I guess. And Suharto regime committed many military repressions against civilians, especially in restive areas. But the regime still had live and let live attitude towards anyone they don't consider as being too inquiring, and still put on a show of regular elections, limited popular consultations and occasionally coopting oppositions into the government.
 
I wanna know what is the situation of the Israel Broadcasting Authority in this scenario.

If I had to guess, probably strictly controlled. I expect a lot of classical music, and "Israeli folk music". Without Yom Kippur, we're probably not going to see quite the same amount of hippy-type influences we saw OTL in the same time period, and even if we did, somehow I doubt that we're going to see this Galatz allowing the Nahal Band to play "Shir laShalom" very much.
 
Sorry for the delays! Been busy for the last while.

Given Baror's comments that Allon's policies will be undermined by later governments mean simply the end of his economic and foreign policies or will it mean the end of the Special Period. Also the Two Seas Canal sounds crazy ambitious. I wonder what the Palestinians and the Egyptian think of the project.

It will mean the end of both. I'm surprised no one has asked the obvious question: where exactly is Israel getting the money for all of this new spending? Taxes can do some of the job, but they are also borrowing significant amounts of money, mostly denominated in U.S. currency, with some preferential loan terms from the Humphrey administration, which wants to rebuild their relationship

What does it say about me that this Israel sounds like a pretty cool place to live?

It's cool unless you are a rightist, then it's not so nice. Also, if you're Arab, it's still not great.

I assume both of them are telling a piece of the truth, once the more... opinionated rhetoric is filtered.

It's interesting (and heartening) to see two Arab ministers: in OTL, there were non-Jewish deputy ministers during this period, but Mapai still thought of its Arab affiliates as clients rather than partners and never appointed one to a full portfolio. And of course, even that ended with the Likud victory, not to return until the 1990s. Allon seems to be changing the traditional Mapai attitude, especially since one of the Arab ministers isn't stuck in a minority affairs slot and might have actual power over development in the Galilee.

I'd like to see where this leads, and whether Arabs will start to feel a real stake in the state as they did in OTL during (and only during) Rabin's second term. And I wish that part of TTL were OTL, although that should go without saying.

I hate to burst your bubble, but their attitude has not changed all that much. Allon and Rabin are very progressive on the Arab issue (quite like Rabin in the 90s) but most of the Mapai establishment still has the previous view. Zabr Muadi is Druze, and his appointment as Minister of Regional Affairs is a sop to the Galilee and Golan Druze, which are being cultivated by Allon as staunch allies of the regime. Allon may have some influence over the political discourse though, and the Special Period will invigorate opposition to the arbitrary power of the state across Israeli society.

New Order's "progressivism" is up for debate, I'd say. If you mean forced draft industrialization and containing religious radicals then yes, I guess. And Suharto regime committed many military repressions against civilians, especially in restive areas. But the regime still had live and let live attitude towards anyone they don't consider as being too inquiring, and still put on a show of regular elections, limited popular consultations and occasionally coopting oppositions into the government.

Interesting. I'll do some more reading on that period to try to get some ideas about Israel.

I wanna know what is the situation of the Israel Broadcasting Authority in this scenario.

If I had to guess, probably strictly controlled. I expect a lot of classical music, and "Israeli folk music". Without Yom Kippur, we're probably not going to see quite the same amount of hippy-type influences we saw OTL in the same time period, and even if we did, somehow I doubt that we're going to see this Galatz allowing the Nahal Band to play "Shir laShalom" very much.

How about the popularity of Mizrahi music? Will it be affected?

Basically. The IBA still broadcasts popular music sometimes, but is overwhelmingly focused towards 'traditional' Israeli music and the preferences of the Ashkenazi ruling elite. The regime is not repressive enough that countercultural artists are going to be affected much directly, so underground clubs will be the core of Israel's counterculture and such for a while. Especially with leftist control of the establishment and the co-option of some radical left figures into the regime, the Israeli youth counterculture might take on more of a libertarian or perhaps even a religious cast.

Mizrahi music will not be affected much, although as Allon is trying to cultivate Mizrahi communities as a voting bloc, it may see more mainstream popularity earlier on.

Update tonight, hopefully, on the Soviet perspective of the issues, then on to a series of narrative updates covering 1973 (unlike OTL, a fairly uneventful year in the Middle East :p)
 
I'm surprised no one has asked the obvious question: where exactly is Israel getting the money for all of this new spending? Taxes can do some of the job, but they are also borrowing significant amounts of money, mostly denominated in U.S. currency, with some preferential loan terms from the Humphrey administration, which wants to rebuild their relationship

Totalitarian states never have trouble funding their elaborate works, in the short. In the longer-term, it often results in a magnificent collapse as foreign investors realize there's zero chance of payment, and all the wealth stolen from "enemies of the nation" gets spent out. I actually expected something like this leading to an economic crisis that ends the Special Period.

It's cool unless you are a rightist, then it's not so nice. Also, if you're Arab, it's still not great.

Thankfully, I'm neither. I even voted Labour last elections!


I hate to burst your bubble, but their attitude has not changed all that much. Allon and Rabin are very progressive on the Arab issue (quite like Rabin in the 90s) but most of the Mapai establishment still has the previous view. Zabr Muadi is Druze, and his appointment as Minister of Regional Affairs is a sop to the Galilee and Golan Druze, which are being cultivated by Allon as staunch allies of the regime. Allon may have some influence over the political discourse though, and the Special Period will invigorate opposition to the arbitrary power of the state across Israeli society.

Even OTL, Mapai was always fairly conservative for a bunch of liberals. An interesting way to play it might be Mapai very openly stressing their connection to Arab equality in order to obfuscate the clear favoritism to Ashkenazi Jews in the medium-term. "We can't be racist, look at all of these brown people!"

Basically. The IBA still broadcasts popular music sometimes, but is overwhelmingly focused towards 'traditional' Israeli music and the preferences of the Ashkenazi ruling elite. The regime is not repressive enough that countercultural artists are going to be affected much directly, so underground clubs will be the core of Israel's counterculture and such for a while. Especially with leftist control of the establishment and the co-option of some radical left figures into the regime, the Israeli youth counterculture might take on more of a libertarian or perhaps even a religious cast.

Mizrahi music will not be affected much, although as Allon is trying to cultivate Mizrahi communities as a voting bloc, it may see more mainstream popularity earlier on.

One thing that's interesting is that so much of Israel music in the mid-70s is gently anti-war songs written and performed by military bands. It's difficult for me to imagine the music scene evolving without these influences. But somehow I feel like Punk might get huge: it's got a great subversive counter-culture type vibe, but is usually ultimately not political enough to be problematic.
 
Totalitarian states never have trouble funding their elaborate works, in the short. In the longer-term, it often results in a magnificent collapse as foreign investors realize there's zero chance of payment, and all the wealth stolen from "enemies of the nation" gets spent out. I actually expected something like this leading to an economic crisis that ends the Special Period.

Definitely, especially with the eventual interest rate shock that the Americans are going to have to implement to crush stagflation. If Israel has plenty of American dollar-denominated debt, it's going to create a crisis that may necessitate serious economic reforms and some... scaling back of national ambitions. Or, they might just get bailed out by the United States. We'll see.

Thankfully, I'm neither. I even voted Labour last elections!

Did you? ;)

If I was eligible to vote in Israeli elections (and I could if I made aliyah), I'd probably vote Meretz or HaTnuah. Labour is totally respectable though. You'd probably find ATL's modern Israeli political ecosystem to be very interesting, and probably more enjoyable than today's.

Even OTL, Mapai was always fairly conservative for a bunch of liberals. An interesting way to play it might be Mapai very openly stressing their connection to Arab equality in order to obfuscate the clear favoritism to Ashkenazi Jews in the medium-term. "We can't be racist, look at all of these brown people!"

Definitely some of that going on. Allonism's focus on Arab internal and external 'partners' is more like a patron-client relationship than a fraternal one. Arabs, Bedouin, Mizrahim and others are going to get respect and a seat at the table, as long as they know who's supposed to sit at the head.

One thing that's interesting is that so much of Israel music in the mid-70s is gently anti-war songs written and performed by military bands. It's difficult for me to imagine the music scene evolving without these influences. But somehow I feel like Punk might get huge: it's got a great subversive counter-culture type vibe, but is usually ultimately not political enough to be problematic.

Punk is definitely going to make an appearance, as will metal. Unfortunately, the attraction of punk and metal for hardcore right-wingers (in this case, radical Revisionists) will be there too. There will be a scene somewhere down the line with a *Kachist death-metal band.
 
AUEFucp.jpg

“Soviet policy towards the Middle East saw two significant shifts over the course of a few years, first after the Six-Day War and later after the Purim War. Beforehand, the USSR had sought to expand its influence through alliances with bourgeois nationalist regimes, aiming to undermine American power and encourage the development of anti-colonial nationalism and economic development as a precursor to later proletarian socialist revolution. This manifested itself in close alliances with Arab regimes in Egypt and Syria and hostility towards the state of Israel, which, despite its socialist ruling party and tradition of progressivism, had firmly aligned itself with the Western camp. Afterwards, Soviet policy focused on support, up to and including extensive economic and military ties, for politically ‘reliable’ regimes, along with overturning pro-Western regimes when opportunities presented themselves. In some ways, this can be seen as a return to Stalin’s ‘two-camps’ philosophy…

The Six-Day War had demonstrated a number of serious issues for Soviet policymakers: the instability of Moscow’s clients and the lack of substantial Soviet control over their decision making; the instability of the area itself and the risks of war including (and especially) escalation and superpower confrontation. There were also the issues of the economic burden that supplying and resupplying the Arab regimes, and that, given the right incentives, Soviet allies might break their allegiances and realign with the West. The war had dealt a blow to the Soviets’ reputation, both in the weakness in their supplied arms and tactics, as well as their unwillingness to come to the direct aid of an allied Third World client in a moment of crisis. Further, it led to a renewed American interest in the Middle East and peacemaking in the Arab-Israeli conflict.

Many in the Kremlin noted these negative elements of Soviet involvement in the Middle East and recommended withdrawal, or at least reassessment. The demotion of individuals believed to be proponents of a more aggressive policy in the region suggests such a rethinking. Yet, conversely, the Soviets may have sought to derive very significant benefits from this temporary humiliation of the Arab states. Aside from a direct political role ¬vis-à-vis the Americans in the Arab-Israeli conflict, the Soviets could now expand their regional presence by exploiting the Arabs’ need for rebuilding and reequipping their armed forces. Air and naval bases, sought before the war, could be obtained with more favourable conditions. Consolidating the Soviets’ Mediterranean presence enabled Moscow to maintain and strengthen its naval challenge to Western dominance of the Mediterranean and to intervene in local crises more quickly. This presence, which might also psychologically (if not militarily) affect vulnerable NATO states such as Turkey and Greece, could also assist the USSR in its efforts to radicalize the Arab world and possibly, chip away at Western influence in the oil-producing states…

This modified form of intervention, despite the concerns related to it, became Soviet policy. One week after the end of the conflict, Brezhnev sent President Podgornyi to Egypt to negotiate terms for substantial Soviet assistance. Throughout 1967-70, Soviet efforts were focused on rebuilding the Egyptian and Syrian militaries with advisors and arms. Soviet advisors cultivated sympathizers among the bureaucracy and officer corps in order to consolidate future Soviet influence.

Yet, the USSR placed limits on its support. Militarily, it turned down Nasser’s request for a formal mutual-defence pact, which would have necessitated Soviet responsibility for the air defence of Egypt. Politically, it undertook efforts to build an Arab consensus in favour of a negotiated solution for the Arab-Israeli conflict that would include some recognition of Israeli territorial gains since the Israeli War of Independence. Communicated through policy and signaling, Moscow conveyed the message that Soviet military aid did not mean that the Soviets granted the Arab states carte-blanche to exercise the military option, nor did they believe that the military option against Israel was a viable or desirable one…

The Palestinian liberation war in East Palestine violated the strategic sensibilities of Soviet planners, who were initially anxious at what seemed to be an extremely risky gamble on the part of their Syrian client. Communiqués and intelligence reports suggest that the Soviets placed diplomatic pressure on Prime Minister Jadid to halt the invasion, with suggestions that U.S intervention might draw them into a direct superpower conflict. Soviet panic reached its height on April 5, with the downing of American fighter-bombers by Syrian anti-aircraft guns…

Zv88ViH.jpg

The Israeli invasion of Syria, beginning on April 14, refocused the Soviets’ mind. To the surprise of the Kremlin, the Americans appeared ineffectual through the early stages of the crisis. The Soviets thus mistakenly saw the Israeli invasion, which soon threatened Damascus, as an American response performed by their regional client rather than an independent action by a panicked Jewish state. Soviet pronouncements became increasingly dire and the Soviets began an emergency airlift of supplies to the Syrian military. These supply runs, protected by Soviet fighter jets, allowed the Syrian military to quickly regroup and prepare to relieve Damascus. Soviet air cover was even used to protect the movement of the 4th and 10th divisions south; while their fighters never directly engaged with IAF planes, they interfered with their ability to launch strikes on Syrian ground movements.

Yet, as the Soviet leadership realized the growing split between the Israelis and Americans, they pushed their Syrian ally towards the negotiating table. After a month and a half of sustained conflict and an Israeli withdrawal from the outskirts of Damascus to a defensive line along the Nahar al-Awaj, a temporary ceasefire was signed on June 1. Following the signing of the Sarajevo Agreement later that month, Soviet aid shifted from military equipment to humanitarian and economic support, with food, medicine, clothing, construction equipment and supplies and some industrial machinery making its way to Syrian and Palestinian ports and airports. While this aid did not come without conditions, it was a clear sign that the USSR valued its client states in the region…

The war cemented the shift in Soviet Middle East policy begin with Egypt’s firm break with the Nasserist left earlier that year. Brezhnev and other Soviet leaders saw bourgeois nationalists as, at best, unreliable and prone to defection from the socialist cause and, at worst, more damaging in the long term to Soviet interests than its obvious enemies. Instead, the USSR would focus its efforts on building up revolutionary states as a regional ‘vanguard’, meant to support and inspire revolution in their neighbours and defend Soviet interests. While these interests were largely second-order compared to Europe and Northeast Asia, Syrian, (and to a lesser extent) Iraqi and Palestinian sovereignty was guaranteed by Soviet protection. Ba’athism, despite its doctrinal similarities to fascism, was supported by the CPSU’s ideologues as an appropriate ‘Arab variation on revolutionary socialism’…

Claudia Cohen. Soviet Foreign Policy in the Middle East: From World War II to the Modern Day: Cambridge: Cambridge University Press (1990). Print
 
Last edited:
Interesting shift in Soviet policy... especially when one considers that OTL's non-Baathist 'revolutionary' state, Libya, is still ruled by a king...
 
It looks like the Soviets have decided to double down on their support of Ba'athism with the quicker Egyptian shift towards the US. How have they reacted to the coup in Morocco, I feel they might try to draw the Medbouh government to the Soviet camp.
 
Top
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top