Emberverse: The Golden Princess

One thing I didn't get was actually having to go to other countries to find other cultures. Like there's this one bit where Juniper is wistfully thinking of all the cultures/races that got decimated and might be extinct. OK...except the United States is probably the most ethnically diverse nation on the planet. See, I think Stirling had a real opportunity that he ignored or deliberately passed over: rather than just mixed groups basing themselves on Osprey book/Wicca/Asatru/Tolkien/utter lunatic, he should have had different ethnic groups banding together. Like...Korean refugees from LA creating a kingdom that they call New Baedal, or stuff like that. Because it's human nature in time of crisis to band together with other people like you - and I think the Change would qualify as a crisis :p

Which isn't to say that there shouldn't be mixed groups too. Obviously there should, given how well America assimilates cultural minorities - and as a product of the modern world, I think inclusivity is good. But there should also be groups who choose to identify themselves with one cultural and ethnic background...or, since they've been living in America, a highly distorted version of that cultural and ethnic background. Actually, a recreation of Edo-period Japan would have made more sense with Japanese-American survivors than actual Japanese...


There were almost never (in Oregon, specifically) enough people from one coherent background to assert that background into the mix that formed the proto-groups that went onto form the post-Change Oregon states. The folks who made it to, say, Larsdalen, were just too randomized to have an impact on the new culture (i.e. they became Bearkillers, just like Mike and Eric....not "Ninja/Pirate/Knight Bearkillers").

The two exceptions to this are the McKenzies (the core group essentially having Wicca as their defining factor, and not much else except Juniper's fake Oirish culture) and the PPA (which, beneath Norman's imposed aesthetic, is a mélange of SCA culture and Organized Crime culture).

You don't see any Samurai-themed Bearkillers because there were not a whole lot of Samurai/Asian-culture loving people joining up with the Outfit, which already had a fairly solid self-image as Polish-Mongol-Marines.

Ditto with CORA, which formed basically out of rural Oregonians (and whoever they let join them).

The non-core members of these proto-cultures (i.e. the folks who "joined" after the core fused into a coherent organization) were largely refugees from the urban areas and the inhabitants of the region the core group moved into (the Bearkillers moved into the Lardsalen region and took it over, imposing their corporate culture on everyone else, etc). Sure, if there had been a coherent group of a few dozen Koreans or a Kendo tournament in the location they moved into...that would likely have flavored things a bit.

OTOH, we see exactly what you are talking about in the form of the PPA* and the Buddhist State out in Wyoming (where a Buddhist conference was taking place when the Change hit, and the large number of Buddhists fused with the surrounding culture).






*-it's mentioned that in the Eastern end of the PPA territory, all the Baronies are quite different from the "classic" PPA model (due to the pre-Change local culture being much different from that of Portland, and Norman having to "recognize" local strongmen, rather than replace them with his Gangland buddies) . Due to ranching being big, instead of row crop agriculture, the knights and men-at-arms are mounted archers (and the nobility is a lot closer to the commoners, socially).
 
Stirling makes vague references to several communities that survived around Eugene which he has left largely alone for fans to interpret. The only communities named or mentioned I believe are the Mclintocks, Jewish Kibbutz, and BD's Kyklos.

Is it just me or do people miss out that Juniper was very much against adopting the overall Faux Scottish culture and ha to be dragged into it like Mike was for Lord Bear. the main instigator was Dennie or maybe it wa Chuck.

Stirling says that as the rural US is much whiter than urban areas a lot of the ethnic minorities* die along with the major cities, except where something unusual happens (PPA) and that makes sense. The thing is where are all the Mexicans/Central Americans, the US agricultural sector is heavily dependent on migrant labour and if you think about it a group of Guatemalan strawberry pickers would actually have better than average survival chances. They'd likely be starting off in a rural area, they'd have agricultural skills, they'd in a group on Change Day 1, they'd all be in decent physical condition etc. I'd certainly rate their survival chance over a bunch of suburban Wiccans.


*with the notable exception of Native Americans.

I think we see a lot of them surviving in the Boise area.

My own Sidefic has and will feature the Basque and Centeal American immigrants prominently.
 
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Good points. And yeah, rural areas are always going to be less cosmopolitan than cities (and the cities would die). I guess I just thought, America being America, you could have at least some coherent ethnic groups forming communities/nations. Like, in one of the cities, someone who's charismatic and smart enough to see the writing on the wall would get his/her particular group together and lead an exodus into the countryside...

One thing I'd really enjoy seeing is the Commonwealth of New Poland, complete with Grand Hetman and winged lancers... I may have to add that to my list of future projects...
 
The Norrheimers are pretty much exactly at the precise Period material culture. I.e. they fell back (technologically) to a point that, coincidentally, exactly matched that of their historical model culture. We have to assume that the tech backslide was involuntary (the other option, that Erik the Strong basically intentionally hamstringed his own people just to get that Authentic Viking Village aesthetic....is too dumb to consider). Ergo, them dropping back to the exact historical material culture (rather than pasting their model culture onto whatever technological/material culture they could hang onto)....is a bit hard on the SOD.

Odin does work among them. Option three is that this is how he liked it. The Pagan faction among the gods seems much more open to direct intervention.
 
Odin does work among them. Option three is that this is how he liked it. The Pagan faction among the gods seems much more open to direct intervention.

I always found that mildly odd really, for all their openness to direct intervention they only seem to be intervening to help one specific group, usually in very direct ways, despite the CUT Others pretty much intervening all over the place.

In retrospect their plan to send one guy across the continent to get a magic sword that doesn't really do much except be awesome doesn't seem incredibly helpful. In fact I'd say it seems downright silly, especially since the CUT have nothing to oppose it with in turn, making the need for the quest mildly questionable.

On that note, did anyone else find Sethaz to be a bit of a lame duck villain?
 
IIRC, the main effect of the Sword (other than giving the High King what amount to cheat code powers) is to somehow nerf the CUT/"Evil" Powers ability to intervene. It's (very briefly) mentioned that, once Rudi got ahold of the Sword, people would be less vulnerable to CUT voodoo than they previously were.
 
One thing I'd really enjoy seeing is the Commonwealth of New Poland, complete with Grand Hetman and winged lancers... I may have to add that to my list of future projects...

I seem to recall hints somewhere that there's plenty of that going on in actual (Emberverse) Poland...
 

Faeelin

Banned
I seem to recall hints somewhere that there's plenty of that going on in actual (Emberverse) Poland...

Dosen't this mean humanity's failing at the goal of the Great Mind, BTW?

"You must learn and evolve as people to deal with technology."

"Too late, our technology controls our morality level! Blood for the blood god!"
 
Dosen't this mean humanity's failing at the goal of the Great Mind, BTW?

"You must learn and evolve as people to deal with technology."

"Too late, our technology controls our morality level! Blood for the blood god!"

Well, arguably a lot of (what we could expect to be) high-intensity conflict has been defused/derailed by the fact that nuclear weapons make it too expensive/suicidal...and, where nukes aren't involved, Superpowers/Great Powers are able to intervene and stop wars that threaten their interests.

IOW, take away nukes and Superpowers, and you'll see a very sharp but also very natural rise in conflict.

Add to that the loss of firearms and cannon, and we see the general loss of centralized monopoly of violence. That results in more, and smaller, factions being able to wage war.

I'd expect the third/fourth generation after the Change (i.e. CY 50-75) to feature quite a large number of wars and local conflicts, as rebounding populations (and infrastructure) allow the natural spheres of influence to assert themselves (i.e. medium-sized wealthy/strong nations/tribes start gobbling up their weaker/smaller neighbors).
A consolidation phase (read: Warring States Period) is inevitable, once you have produced sufficient post-Change babies to form armies and start repopulation of empty-but-valuable areas.


Stirling seems to have figured that out, right off the bat. One of the effects of the High Kingdom of Montival coming into existence is that the McKenzies, Mt. Angel, and Bearkillers won't be absorbed/overrun/conquered by Corvallis, the PPA, or Boise. All of whom are much larger, better organized, and far better placed to expand and absorb.
Absent the High Kingdom keeping everyone nice, there'd inevitably be some kind of conflict (economic, or criminal, probably), and Corvallis would conquer the McKenzies. Or the PPA would overrun Larsdalen.

That's one of the reasons I didn't really like the idea of the High Kingdom. It handily lets the smaller members dodge historical inevitabilities. It also shows that Stirling sort of worked backwards from Montival to the original survivor groups, such that they each specialize in some sort of very specific military capability...so that, a Generation hence, Montival will naturally and organically be able to field a very well-sorted Combined Arms force.

It's way too much like the original survivor leaders were able to look at the Outline for the entire series. When the characters start acting like they know as much as the Author does....stuff starts to break down.
 
Mind you, the Great Mind/Powers That Be seem to also have been trying to save humanity from post-humanism - that got hinted at in Rudi's vision where he sees the Swindapa/Juniper/Marian...thing. In that case, they've succeeded beautifully if only because cybernetics and genetic engineering have gone the way of the dodo.

I'd agree with Meatshield, though I'd change 'original survivor leaders' to 'Sandra bloody Arminger' (Her being the one who talks the PPA's main leadership into signing up to the new High Kingdom). Don't get me wrong - it's cool to have a Lord Vetinari-type character, but it came entirely out of left field. She's barely in the first book, appears briefly in the second to mention that she's glad her husband gave up his S&M fantasies with the staff...and then she's suddenly a scheming cross between Machiavelli and Eleanor of Aquitaine. Some development would have been nice, is all I'm saying.

At this point, I'm kind of burning to know what's happening back in Bronze Age Nantucket - is the Island still conquering the world or have Achaea, Tartessos, Babylon and the Hittites finally gone 'Hey, if we club together we could totally take these people'?
 
It's kind of a shame Stirling wasn't more familiar with modern fantasy products. After all, we had one crowd base themselves on Tolkien. Templars of Sigmar would have been fun. Or...as Faeelin says, 'Blood for the Blood God!'

And yes, I know GW would never have licensed that. Well, not without vast sums of money, anyway. But I can dream...
 
On that subject, I occasionally get the feeling that the "gods" of the emberverse are not the same beings as the mythological beings, but playing dressup. And that the faith of the supplicants is more like an operating system to tap into/communicate with the ASBs.
 
On that subject, I occasionally get the feeling that the "gods" of the emberverse are not the same beings as the mythological beings, but playing dressup. And that the faith of the supplicants is more like an operating system to tap into/communicate with the ASBs.

Yeah - like we couldn't actually comprehend what they really are, so we see them as what we imagine our gods/saints/angels/Numenoreans to be like. And the more spiritual of us are able to tap their power and unleash it, but still through the lens of that faith.

Mind you, though, that wouldn't explain why Rudi saw the Maiden and Crone as Swindapa and Marian Alston, since he'd never actually met them so wouldn't have any frame of reference. Though I saw it suggested elsewhere that they were actually part of the Mind, somehow, and that they'd deliberately sent Nantucket back to that specific era so their earthly selves could meet and fall in love.

Which begs the question: what is the Mind? Aliens or a gestalt composed of humans who've evolved to a Vorlon-like stage?
 
I like to imagine that somewhere in the world Khorne is getting his proper devotion.

Maybe in Nottingham...in a fortress made of the ruined shell of Games Workshop's corporate headquarters... And the shades of Paul Sawyer and Andy Hoare and others haunt the hallways, and whisper 'If only we hadn't come up with such compelling backstory and such a catchy battlecry...'
 
Yeah - like we couldn't actually comprehend what they really are, so we see them as what we imagine our gods/saints/angels/Numenoreans to be like. And the more spiritual of us are able to tap their power and unleash it, but still through the lens of that faith.

Mind you, though, that wouldn't explain why Rudi saw the Maiden and Crone as Swindapa and Marian Alston, since he'd never actually met them so wouldn't have any frame of reference. Though I saw it suggested elsewhere that they were actually part of the Mind, somehow, and that they'd deliberately sent Nantucket back to that specific era so their earthly selves could meet and fall in love.

Which begs the question: what is the Mind? Aliens or a gestalt composed of humans who've evolved to a Vorlon-like stage?


Reading between the lines (and from comments by Stirling), the Mind is the gestalt entity formed by (at least) the human-descended civilization* of a previous Universe. In that Universe, Dawkins was right, and there was no God/Afterlife/etc. The Mind (once it had evolved from us) found that kind of lame and unexciting.

So they rebooted the Universe. In the nu-Verse, there are gods** and an afterlife.

At some point after this, the Mind gets into an existentialist argument with Itself. Events in human evolution in the nu-Verse are not going well. In order for Mind to evolve in the nu-Verse (which is possibly vital to the existing Mind continuing to exist), Humanity has to survive, without going extinct or becoming Cthulhu. The odds aren't good, so the Mind decides to take action.

At this point, the narrative is (deliberately?) unclear, but due to the "argument" (which appears to boil down to Order vs Entropy....but not really?), only the most crude intervention is allowed. The Change/Event (Nantucket being dropped backwards through time, and possibly laterally as well...and the Change nerfing human technology on the Earth left behind). It's implied that the "Good" Powers (the thing(s) talking to Rudi at Nantucket) wanted to do something(s) even more intrusive than the Change, but were veto'd by the "Bad" Powers (the thing(s) behind the CUT and Koreans).

The "Good" Powers state, twice, that just because they are on Rudi's side, from his POV, shouldn't be taken to imply that they are actually "Good". IOW, the CUT, despite their horrible ways of doing things, might actually have an equal claim to be the Good Guys (or not). Since the Everyone/CUT war is only a proxy fight for the two camps of the Powers, and the argument behind it is so far beyond human comprehension...there's no way to know who is actually the "good guys" in the Big Picture.

We do know that the extermination of 96% of the human population, and the deprivation of most of our high technology, was the doing of the "Good" Powers. Which says a lot about them.



*-it's unclear, but the ISOT-Nantucket civilization may have been the source of the Mind (or at least part of it), as Marion/Swindapa/Juniper says that the Island was dropped back through time so that it could reach across and initiate the Change. Since every other mention has the Mind imposing the Change....it's possible that Nantucket-Earth and the Mind are the same thing (or Nantucket-Earth is part of the Mind), in a sort of closed timeloop.

**-The individual "Gods" (Athena, Triple Goddess, Odin, Mary, etc) might simply be the Mind (or components thereof) playing dress up. Or they might be independent creations (sort of like Bodhisattvas) that are organic to the new post-Change reality.
 

Dammit there always seems to be a more interesting story going on in the background of this series :p

On a more serious note, I always found the Mind to be somewhat ambiguous. The 'Bad Guys' vision seemed to be almost as horrible as what the 'Good Guys' intended (except that they seemed to basically turn humanity into a post-human species which destroyed the world, albeit kept their free will, if the Mind's visions can be trusted).

My own estimation is that the Mind (in order to preserve itself) smashed humanity back into the pre-industrial age because they were prevented from intruding into humanities free-will by the 'Bad Guys' who wanted to have free will run it's course (and in their opinion end in a survival of the fittest Draka style world). While neither side is 'good' per say each sides eventual goal have pretty horrific consequences for us little humans.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Dammit there always seems to be a more interesting story going on in the background of this series :p

On a more serious note, I always found the Mind to be somewhat ambiguous. The 'Bad Guys' vision seemed to be almost as horrible as what the 'Good Guys' intended (except that they seemed to basically turn humanity into a post-human species which destroyed the world, albeit kept their free will, if the Mind's visions can be trusted).

Which book is that in?
 

Lateknight

Banned
I would be nice for some character to acknowledge that the fact that the "gods" killed billions for reasons unknown is kinda messed up. Nobody seems all that disturbed by that fact, they just go along with it.
 
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