Emberverse: The Golden Princess

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

Only the Dutch and Singapore would be more screwed.

And, of course, Stirling mentioned Singapore early on as being one of the few Asian places that survived the Change, because they were 'organised' enough to all move out of the city together (which has stereotypical connotations all of its own) And move out where, precisely? Southern Malaysia - presumably full of starving refugees from Kuala Lumpur and Johor Bahru? Or did they sail to Indonesia, which given its population density would be even worse-off?

Actually, did this question get answered in the new book?

 

[R. E. Lee]

And, of course, Stirling mentioned Singapore early on as being one of the few Asian places that survived the Change, because they were 'organised' enough to all move out of the city together (which has stereotypical connotations all of its own) And move out where, precisely? Southern Malaysia - presumably full of starving refugees from Kuala Lumpur and Johor Bahru? Or did they sail to Indonesia, which given its population density would be even worse-off?

Actually, did this question get answered in the new book?

The implication is that they seized the best farmland and just killed any Malays who resisted/were there, leaving those that didn't resist to starve. Genocide, basically.

That in and of itself isn't totally out of the realm of possibility, if they were organized--Portland showed that an organized and well armed group could rout exponentially bigger unorganized masses. The biggest problem is them getting organized that fast. On his Yahoo group he said he figured that an astronomically unlikely survival had to happen at least once in the world, and he figured Singapore was as good as any place to put it.

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

The implication is that they seized the best farmland and just killed any Malays who resisted/were there, leaving those that didn't resist to starve. Genocide, basically.

That in and of itself isn't totally out of the realm of possibility, if they were organized--Portland showed that an organized and well armed group could rout exponentially bigger unorganized masses. The biggest problem is them getting organized that fast. On his Yahoo group he said he figured that an astronomically unlikely survival had to happen at least once in the world, and he figured Singapore was as good as any place to put it.

Fair enough, I suppose. Would have been cooler, though, if he'd had a restored Sultanate of Johor or Aceh as his unlikely survival. Or a new Ayutthaya...

 

[Faeelin]

Hey at least the Irish come off better than the Welsh.

Stirling has suggested that the Celts are incapable of organizing an effective government, so this is not surprising.

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

Stirling has suggested that the Celts are incapable of organizing an effective government, so this is not surprising.

And yet, he has his most Mary Sue-ish of characters base themselves on a pastiche of Celtic stereotypes...

I should point out, I don't have a problem with a neo-pagan group springing up in the post-Change world - it's no wackier than Caesar's Legion in Fallout. What I do have a problem with is that the Mackenzies can literally do no wrong, and that against enemies who should steamroll right over them they come out laughing every time. Also, they're an unholy mix of Brigadoon and the Quiet Man...

 

[EnglishCanuck]

And yet, he has his most Mary Sue-ish of characters base themselves on a pastiche of Celtic stereotypes...

I should point out, I don't have a problem with a neo-pagan group springing up in the post-Change world - it's no wackier than Caesar's Legion in Fallout. What I do have a problem with is that the Mackenzies can literally do no wrong, and that against enemies who should steamroll right over them they come out laughing every time. Also, they're an unholy mix of Brigadoon and the Quiet Man...

The fact that the Mackenzies are using longbows and many of their bowmen are women is particularly aggravating, I had to suspend my disbelief for most of the battles because of that. Seriously, by the Protectors War the Mackenzie bowmen should have more trouble, Arminger's legions could easily have soaked up the bow related casualties (these aren't the warbows of the Hundred Years War, huge difference) and really the only reason the Protectorate should have been out generaled is because most of Armingers nobles are former gangsters who have no clue how to conduct any type of war beyond smashing things.

But the good guys just get advantage after advantage after advantage...really grates on any sense of suspense the story could offer.

This new novel is just as guilty, and it has the opportunity to present that but...I'm skeptical Stirling can deliver. Especially that outside a few isolated scene there was no sense of urgency or suspense to the plot whatsoever. It really should have been combined with the next book just to make it more interesting.

 

[Warr]

And yet, he has his most Mary Sue-ish of characters base themselves on a pastiche of Celtic stereotypes...

I should point out, I don't have a problem with a neo-pagan group springing up in the post-Change world - it's no wackier than Caesar's Legion in Fallout. What I do have a problem with is that the Mackenzies can literally do no wrong, and that against enemies who should steamroll right over them they come out laughing every time. Also, they're an unholy mix of Brigadoon and the Quiet Man...

Yeah, the MacKenzies are pretty Mary Sue-ish, but this is not specifically because of 'Celt Wank' on his part. They are patische Celts, not real Celts, they're Americans who flung to all these Celtic stereotypes because their leaders were strongly intune with their Scottish heritage or whatever. "Spontaneously started wearing Kilts" and so forth.

Really, they and the others all suffer from a mess of what seems to me of 'Stirling wanting to recreate Medieval Britain culture wise in his eventual rising Kingdom of Oregon'.

He makes sure Neo-Celts happen. He makes sure Neo-Nordish folk happen (The Armingers). He makes sure that Neo-Normans happen (PPA, duh.). He makes sure taht there's a viking like raider group, in the Haida. He makes sure there's an Anglo-Saxon like (or enough of a bland standin) group in the CORA folks and so forth.

Why? Because he wants it to eventually mesh into a Second Britain in 'Montival'. At least as far as I'm concerned, as the 'Neo-Celts' in the MacKenzie lands are all pastiches and cliches like they thought that was the real culture. There's also an amusing lack of cattle for Neo-Celts, when they'd have a lot of herds if they oculd get them.

I mean if you look at it then look at the other states he creates in White-as-Lilly America, aka non-Deathzone...? Yeah. Idaho gets to be 'Neo-Roman' because it wants to not give up the USoA as a possible body of creation.

Then he lazes out the Neo-Sioux, just I imagine to have his huns attacking America's equivalent of Europe, and also to get the gold star of 'not being racist'. Which is why you see a small smattering of ethnic folk but only a smattering. Also why you see some lesbians but I cannot think of a single referenced homosexual male in any of the books (unless it's a villain, I wouldn't know)... at least to me.

Then the most norse ethnic area in the States becomes Neo-Norse/Neo-Vikings. The Iowans and so forth meanwhile become Neo-Germans/Psuedo-Neo HRE esque in that they have a similar culture and trade with each other and help each other.

I gotta say to me ALL of his big characters are Mary Sue-ish, because they HAVE To be to survive. The only one I didn't think Mary Sue-ish is Ingolf, and even he MIGHT be later.

Also, I didn't mean to sidetrack the thread or anything. Just pointing out you can't say because he lets his Neo-Celts survive untouched that he doesn't F over the actual Celts in Britain to make Neo-british empire happen in the books.

 

[RadioFreedeath]

The bearkiller doctor is a homosexual male I believe. He is painted in a pretty positive light from what we see of him.

 

[Meatshield]

The Baron of Forest Grove (basically the male version of Tiphaine, and the father-by-turkey-baster of Delia/Tiphaine's biological/legal children) is a semi-openly homosexual.

 

[Malta]

Tiphanie is SUUUPER homosexual and goes through a interesting portyal as Villain Assassin to Good Kidnapper to Head of the Montival Armed Forces Kickass

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

Snip

Point. To a certain extent, you could say that even as he changes everything, he keeps things the same or reverts them - America and Britain are major powers, Japan's full of samurai apparently, the Mongols are doing their Mongol thing again. The only real difference is Hinduraj, by the sounds of it. In other words, different names, but nothing so radically different and awesome as the Great Irish Empire or a Zulu trade confederation.

Also, one of my best friends is basically Tiphaine except shorter. And without access to medieval weapons (though she has several books on sword-making).

 

[Warr]

The Baron of Forest Grove (basically the male version of Tiphaine, and the father-by-turkey-baster of Delia/Tiphaine's biological/legal children) is a semi-openly homosexual.

Huh. I didn't know that. I thought Tiphaine and Delia's kids via the father-by-turkey-baster method were fathered by one of her peasants at her request, or something along those lines. That's how I read it in Sunrise Lands but yeah apparently I'm wrong. My bad. That's 2 Homosexual males, one semi-villain.

Tiphanie is SUUUPER homosexual and goes through a interesting portyal as Villain Assassin to Good Kidnapper to Head of the Montival Armed Forces Kickass

She's also a female homosexual. I said homosexual male, as I couldn't think of really very many.

Point. To a certain extent, you could say that even as he changes everything, he keeps things the same or reverts them - America and Britain are major powers, Japan's full of samurai apparently, the Mongols are doing their Mongol thing again. The only real difference is Hinduraj, by the sounds of it. In other words, different names, but nothing so radically different and awesome as the Great Irish Empire or a Zulu trade confederation.

Also, one of my best friends is basically Tiphaine except shorter. And without access to medieval weapons (though she has several books on sword-making).

Yeah, basically you could say that. Heck, I kind of have it in my head that if we ever see any Republic of Pecos folks in an indepth way they're going to be kind of Neo-Spaniards in a sense.

 

[Meatshield]

Yeah, one of my major disappointments was with the Norrheimers and Japanese. Both of them are wayyyy too close to the historical model (900 AD Vikings, and Edo Period Feudal Japan)....in ways that don't make a lot of sense.

The Norrheimers are pretty much exactly at the precise Period material culture. I.e. they fell back (technologically) to a point that, coincidentally, exactly matched that of their historical model culture. We have to assume that the tech backslide was involuntary (the other option, that Erik the Strong basically intentionally hamstringed his own people just to get that Authentic Viking Village aesthetic....is too dumb to consider). Ergo, them dropping back to the exact historical material culture (rather than pasting their model culture onto whatever technological/material culture they could hang onto)....is a bit hard on the SOD.


Likewise the Japanese. I would expect a post-Change Japan to resemble a kluge of anachronisms pasted onto a "Japanese History" that owed more to Kurosawa and Anime than a historical textbook, mixed with imported western ideas. The authentic 1600's Japan reproduction that we have been shown so far is more faithful to the Period than the PPA ever was (with Norman "frowning on" anything he didn't feel was Period enough)....but without any of the concessions the PPA immediately made to practicality (i.e. useful/comfortable technological innovations that made their lives better).


The PPA is basically nothing like Period Norman society (save a thin layer on the surface), and benefits from all sorts of things the Normans never had (many of which didn't exist until the 19th/20th centuries)....and this was a society built by a sociopathic and homicidal Period Nazi who went all out for his favored aesthetic.
A society that isn't run by that kind of madman shouldn't have any great resemblance to a specific historical period. Everything should default to a kluge of "pre-Change capabilities we could hold onto, or rebuild using post-Change limitations" and "stuff from history that we think helps".
Iowa is a good example of this (aside from the aforementioned implications that Iowa is somehow inferior to Montival, despite appearances), as it is a giant kitbash that grew organically from the hideous mélange of practices thrown into use to keep everyone alive during the Change Year.

The vast majority of post-Change militaries should look like someone put half a dozen random Osprey books in a blender. The civil culture for most of the nation-states that landed on their feet (i.e. didn't collapse into neo-Bronze Age tribal groups) should look pretty much like the 19th Century...with maybe a thick layer of "Our Chosen Culture" painted on.

 

[Meatshield]

The fact that the Mackenzies are using longbows and many of their bowmen are women is particularly aggravating, I had to suspend my disbelief for most of the battles because of that. Seriously, by the Protectors War the Mackenzie bowmen should have more trouble, Arminger's legions could easily have soaked up the bow related casualties (these aren't the warbows of the Hundred Years War, huge difference) and really the only reason the Protectorate should have been out generaled is because most of Armingers nobles are former gangsters who have no clue how to conduct any type of war beyond smashing things.

But the good guys just get advantage after advantage after advantage...really grates on any sense of suspense the story could offer.

This new novel is just as guilty, and it has the opportunity to present that but...I'm skeptical Stirling can deliver. Especially that outside a few isolated scene there was no sense of urgency or suspense to the plot whatsoever. It really should have been combined with the next book just to make it more interesting.

One thing that drove me nuts is that Stirling repeatedly goes out of his way to have characters mention that the McKenzies cannot afford to take casualties. Their main Levy is a massive chunk of the active adult members of the population, and ALL of their militarily-capable adults. One disaster on the battlefield, and the McKenzies are basically off the gameboard for a generation (assuming nobody follows them home to finish the whole tribe off for good).

....and it never happens. Given the foreshadowing, I was certain the McKenzies were to be used to illustrate a point about tribal economics and logistics. But no. They just sail through with all of the historical English Longbow victories (which were basically predicated on their enemies assaulting into prepared positions, and being stupid) and none of the historical English Longbow losses (archers attacked before getting dug in, or the cavalry rides over them, or they get lured out of position, or surprised on the march). It's all Agincourt and Crecy...and none of Patay, Formigny, or Gerberoy.

 

[EnglishCanuck]

One thing that drove me nuts is that Stirling repeatedly goes out of his way to have characters mention that the McKenzies cannot afford to take casualties. Their main Levy is a massive chunk of the active adult members of the population, and ALL of their militarily-capable adults. One disaster on the battlefield, and the McKenzies are basically off the gameboard for a generation (assuming nobody follows them home to finish the whole tribe off for good).

....and it never happens. Given the foreshadowing, I was certain the McKenzies were to be used to illustrate a point about tribal economics and logistics. But no. They just sail through with all of the historical English Longbow victories (which were basically predicated on their enemies assaulting into prepared positions, and being stupid) and none of the historical English Longbow losses (archers attacked before getting dug in, or the cavalry rides over them, or they get lured out of position, or surprised on the march). It's all Agincourt and Crecy...and none of Patay, Formigny, or Gerberoy.

See it's a writing convention I've become fairly fed up with. Arbitrarily raising the stakes despite them never actually being in any real danger. If one McKenzie force had been defeated, bloodied, wiped out, ect then I would have actually felt like "Oh Crap! What will happen next!?" Instead I kept accurately predicting when they will defeat the next PPA attack.

Honestly had they been in peril at any point rather than people inarticulately shitting themselves over the idea of fighting longbows (which since these aren't warbows the PPA crossbows should actually have even range with them, making this far less one sided) and have a battle where the McKenzies were even slightly inconvenienced I'd have been impressed. Even the big fight between the Bear Killers and the PPA had more stress to it since I felt like "Hey there's a chance Mike might lose this one! Or at least take some serious losses!"

Every fight the McKenzies are in is just...ugh. That and the 'longbows as a super weapon' is really annoying since some of the uses they employ it for are just outlandishly impractical.

 

[EnglishCanuck]

Yeah, one of my major disappointments was with the Norrheimers and Japanese. Both of them are wayyyy too close to the historical model (900 AD Vikings, and Edo Period Feudal Japan)....in ways that don't make a lot of sense.

The Norrheimers are pretty much exactly at the precise Period material culture. I.e. they fell back (technologically) to a point that, coincidentally, exactly matched that of their historical model culture. We have to assume that the tech backslide was involuntary (the other option, that Erik the Strong basically intentionally hamstringed his own people just to get that Authentic Viking Village aesthetic....is too dumb to consider). Ergo, them dropping back to the exact historical material culture (rather than pasting their model culture onto whatever technological/material culture they could hang onto)....is a bit hard on the SOD.

Well the Norrheimers I get the feeling that they had this sort of Renaissance Fair idea of what Vikings looked like and couple that in with ideas plucked from idealistic tales and representations in media they tried to model it on that, but they really only knew how to do that kind of modeling. The people they took along with them had some ideas of how to do things, but somewhat disastrously aped the Viking model of the survivors and kept falling back technologically.

(Point in case I remember a conversation somewhere where some members of the Norrheimer group wanted to recreate a longhouse to exact specifications, and had to be bluntly called idiots for not thinking of the smoke inhalation issue. So it might have been sheer desperation and the want to try and forget the 'old life' to make it less painful)

Likewise the Japanese. I would expect a post-Change Japan to resemble a kluge of anachronisms pasted onto a "Japanese History" that owed more to Kurosawa and Anime than a historical textbook, mixed with imported western ideas. The authentic 1600's Japan reproduction that we have been shown so far is more faithful to the Period than the PPA ever was (with Norman "frowning on" anything he didn't feel was Period enough)....but without any of the concessions the PPA immediately made to practicality (i.e. useful/comfortable technological innovations that made their lives better).

The Japanese I felt was mildly more realistic since the items they would have access to would mostly be the WWII ideas of samurai and the Edo period literature (which is where so much of our modern conception of what a samurai is comes from) so them taking their cues from there, as well as instituting the Imperial Institution as more than it was historically (ie puppets of the Shogun) is a decent representation of what trying to recreate a Japanese state would be like.

Mind you I'm hoping as time goes on they begin to give credence to the idea of the ashigaru foot soldier versus the elite war bands of samurai (which considering their evolution from Imperial Family, to authority of the land holders, to village militia, would be logical) but since Stirling seems to be going for the 'romantic' view of samurai, I'm tragically doubting it.

The vast majority of post-Change militaries should look like someone put half a dozen random Osprey books in a blender. The civil culture for most of the nation-states that landed on their feet (i.e. didn't collapse into neo-Bronze Age tribal groups) should look pretty much like the 19th Century...with maybe a thick layer of "Our Chosen Culture" painted on.

Yeah, the plainsmen with their light cavalry style made sense (though dammit if they shouldn't have been using either scaled down falchions or bloody scaled up sabers!) and then the more 'settled' peoples of the Iowa area having what should have been more Renaissance style armies (with medium cavalry types) would make sense to me. Though I would expect the more tyrannical post-Change governments to understand the utility of fortified dwellings as checks against refugee unrest pretty quickly and then plan out accordingly...

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

One thing I didn't get was actually having to go to other countries to find other cultures. Like there's this one bit where Juniper is wistfully thinking of all the cultures/races that got decimated and might be extinct. OK...except the United States is probably the most ethnically diverse nation on the planet. See, I think Stirling had a real opportunity that he ignored or deliberately passed over: rather than just mixed groups basing themselves on Osprey book/Wicca/Asatru/Tolkien/utter lunatic, he should have had different ethnic groups banding together. Like...Korean refugees from LA creating a kingdom that they call New Baedal, or stuff like that. Because it's human nature in time of crisis to band together with other people like you - and I think the Change would qualify as a crisis

Which isn't to say that there shouldn't be mixed groups too. Obviously there should, given how well America assimilates cultural minorities - and as a product of the modern world, I think inclusivity is good. But there should also be groups who choose to identify themselves with one cultural and ethnic background...or, since they've been living in America, a highly distorted version of that cultural and ethnic background. Actually, a recreation of Edo-period Japan would have made more sense with Japanese-American survivors than actual Japanese...

 

[Thoresby]

Stirling says that as the rural US is much whiter than urban areas a lot of the ethnic minorities* die along with the major cities, except where something unusual happens (PPA) and that makes sense. The thing is where are all the Mexicans/Central Americans, the US agricultural sector is heavily dependent on migrant labour and if you think about it a group of Guatemalan strawberry pickers would actually have better than average survival chances. They'd likely be starting off in a rural area, they'd have agricultural skills, they'd in a group on Change Day 1, they'd all be in decent physical condition etc. I'd certainly rate their survival chance over a bunch of suburban Wiccans.


*with the notable exception of Native Americans.

 

[Faeelin]

Stirling says that as the rural US is much whiter than urban areas a lot of the ethnic minorities* die along with the major cities, except where something unusual happens (PPA) and that makes sense. The thing is where are all the Mexicans/Central Americans, the US agricultural sector is heavily dependent on migrant labour and if you think about it a group of Guatemalan strawberry pickers would actually have better than average survival chances.

They aren't part of the new, better humanity that rises from the ashes, if you get my drift.

 

[Meatshield]

Stirling says that as the rural US is much whiter than urban areas a lot of the ethnic minorities* die along with the major cities, except where something unusual happens (PPA) and that makes sense. The thing is where are all the Mexicans/Central Americans, the US agricultural sector is heavily dependent on migrant labour and if you think about it a group of Guatemalan strawberry pickers would actually have better than average survival chances. They'd likely be starting off in a rural area, they'd have agricultural skills, they'd in a group on Change Day 1, they'd all be in decent physical condition etc. I'd certainly rate their survival chance over a bunch of suburban Wiccans.


*with the notable exception of Native Americans.

Location, location, location. Even more than skillset or toughness or ruthlessness.....location heavily controls whether you survive the Change or not. A lot of the agricultural work that leans on migrant labor happens to be in regions that just won't do well when the lights go out (Southern California and the Central Valley, for instance). Or in regions (especially out East) that are in the "Plume of Death" of major urban areas.

Another factor is luck. Some areas that would otherwise pull through (due to local food production, organization, geographic barriers to refugees, etc) probably went under due to simple bad luck (a wildfire, outbreak of disease, squirrels eating the corn, etc) or infighting.

Note that Stirling seems to have experienced some Buyer's Remorse over the clean sweep he gave most of the planet....and, in the last couple of books (beginning with the Norrheimers), a lot of areas that were originally thought absolutely empty of civilization have turned out to hold significant civilized populations (Maine, Japan, the "Barony" north of San Francisco, Central/South America, etc). AIUI, he's even mentioned (on his message board) pockets of Germans and French who survived up in the Alps.

They aren't part of the new, better humanity that rises from the ashes, if you get my drift.

Not really. That's one charge you really can't make against Stirling.