Emberverse: The Golden Princess

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

Actually seeing as the Norrheimers are based on real people (the seeress is a real person who lives in the Bay Area) and knowing some of the folks involved in that scene if there ever WAS a world-ending catastrophe like the Change there's a few groups and individuals, more fringeish types, that probably would do that solely to get the authentic Viking feel.

I mean if you've got psycho Norman pulling his fallback to feudalism I fail to see how Norrheim couldn't be a repeat of something similar with the worst stuff happening so far in the past that it's largely been glossed over by the time Rudi shows up.

Really? I knew he had people he consulted on Wicca, Asatru, etc., but I didn't know he actually tuckerised them (with the exception of Heather Alexand...I mean Juniper Mckenzie).

There's a couple of ways of looking at it. On the one hand, I suppose period psycho types would be the only ones mad enough to try to forge something new in the aftermath of the Change, so they'd get their states off the ground...but on the other hand, it's harder to see them lasting. Like, suppose I decided to create a neo-Roman Republic, right down to the Legion composition, armaments, and the Senate/two Consuls model. OK, I'd probably get enough people desperate enough to survive that they'd listen to me simply because I was peddling something new (this is an AH version of me who's charismatic and actually able to fight, btw ), but my Legions would probably get destroyed by the first people we met who'd practiced mounted archery. Or even if it survived, because I'd been so insistent on recreating the Roman Republic's politial system, it'd be prone to being taken over by a dictator... Point being, a society that deliberately hamstrings itself by rigid copying of a historical model, yeah they'd thrive during the initial breakdown, but I don't see them lasting as long as Norrheim did.

 

[EnglishCanuck]

Really? I knew he had people he consulted on Wicca, Asatru, etc., but I didn't know he actually tuckerised them (with the exception of Heather Alexand...I mean Juniper Mckenzie).

There's a couple of ways of looking at it. On the one hand, I suppose period psycho types would be the only ones mad enough to try to forge something new in the aftermath of the Change, so they'd get their states off the ground...but on the other hand, it's harder to see them lasting. Like, suppose I decided to create a neo-Roman Republic, right down to the Legion composition, armaments, and the Senate/two Consuls model. OK, I'd probably get enough people desperate enough to survive that they'd listen to me simply because I was peddling something new (this is an AH version of me who's charismatic and actually able to fight, btw ), but my Legions would probably get destroyed by the first people we met who'd practiced mounted archery. Or even if it survived, because I'd been so insistent on recreating the Roman Republic's politial system, it'd be prone to being taken over by a dictator... Point being, a society that deliberately hamstrings itself by rigid copying of a historical model, yeah they'd thrive during the initial breakdown, but I don't see them lasting as long as Norrheim did.

In fairness the Norrheimers probably had a winnowing period of the period Nazi crazies who came along or who adopted things too enthusiastically (I know I mentioned somewhere in here about some of them trying to be 100% period accurate in one characters internal monologue recollections).

They do tend to stick to the Viking motif pretty literally though. Kind of makes me chuckle on the inside picturing them running into the PEI survivors and pioneers and trying to take land from them by force in 50 or so years and they still haven't evolved beyond the shield wall tactics

 

[Meatshield]

In fairness the Norrheimers probably had a winnowing period of the period Nazi crazies who came along or who adopted things too enthusiastically (I know I mentioned somewhere in here about some of them trying to be 100% period accurate in one characters internal monologue recollections). The material culture of the community will have a huge impact, too (small towns/cities are unlikely to generate horse archers, while ranching/herding communities are not going to field pike blocks).

They do tend to stick to the Viking motif pretty literally though. Kind of makes me chuckle on the inside picturing them running into the PEI survivors and pioneers and trying to take land from them by force in 50 or so years and they still haven't evolved beyond the shield wall tactics

Speaking strictly about the military aspect:


The immediate post-Change (i.e. April 1998 - 2000 or so) security/defense/militia* of any sizable community (really small communities are likely to be just "adults with hunting weapons") is indeed likely to be some horrifically un-optimized pastiche of some historical model, with great dependency on the educational/recreational/intellectual backgrounds of the Founding leaders (or their immediate subordinates**).

So, yeah, expect to see slavish (and often completely upside down, due to lack of understanding or Hollywood influence) clones of <Viking Shield Wall, Roman Principate Century, Norman Foot Knights, Greek Hoplite Phalanx, etc>....but with ahistorical equipment (due to lack of fabrication capability or expertise...or better materials somehow being available), and very clumsy execution.

So the notional "Roman Legion Century" might be equipped with spears (the planners not being aware of the pila and its specifics), some form of sword (short or long), brigandine armor (possibly the easiest and quickest form of armor to fabricate on any scale), and some weird pattern of helmet that they could slap together on the fly. Its "tactics" being limited to marching straight up to an enemy and jabbing until they win.



Now, this is likely to undergo a serious re-boot (in those communities which survive and prosper), a couple of years after the Change, once the logistical situation (read: not starving, having a surplus of food, and the division of labor required to devote time to military issues) has changed. At that point, they've (the people who were office managers, farmers, and pizza deliverymen, not just soldiers and sheriffs and mayors) actually got some experience in military affairs (even if it's just beating off raids and patrolling), and can sit down to apply their knowledge of their particular situation while staring at every Osprey book and military manual they've been able to lay their hands on.
That's when you see properly optimized (and appropriate to the community's situation) military structures. IOW, Roman cohorts (with the troops wearing half/three quarter plate armor like 1500's pikemen) supported by archers and cavalry, with pike units in reserve.....rather than just a slavish clone of a Roman legion with all the limitations of the original (which do not apply to post-Change forces).



*- even communities founded/dominated by intact pre-Change military commands are going to be defended primarily by militia for a long time, there not being a deep enough resource/labor pool to support a nonproductive military class.

**- Go back and re-read DtF, and note how little Juniper and Havel actually contributed to their community's military orientation. Chuck Barstow and Sam Aylward more or less design the McKenzie military structure and practice, with no input from Juniper (other than a sensible "Sounds good!"). Of all people, Will Hutton is most responsible for the Bearkiller military scheme (Havel set up the social order, with the A-List and Strategic Hamlet stuff), with Pamela a close second.


BTW, think about how long it would take (man-hours per) to produce the combat gear (weapons, armor, shield, etc) for just one guy. Even the most basic/easily-fabricated gear. Now multiply that time by a dozen, a hundred, five hundred, a thousand? Even with economies of scale and assembly-line production....you're talking being able to equip a single guy every day or so (for small/mid-sized communities).

 

[Redcat]

Two things pop to mind:


First, any return to the Nantucket-verse would require him to basically jump forward a few generations, since the finale of the trilogy sort of left the RON without a peer competitor (everyone remotely worth talking about is either beaten down, or a Nantucket ally). There won't be any real tension possible until the rest of the world begins catching up with Nantucket, unless you want stories that are basically "White hunters in Africa" genre novels.

Agreed. Though mind you, that interpretation basically means that the RON will last forever, which kind of sucks... I mean, all empires (which is what Nantucket is) eventually fall. Nantucket can't be an exception... It'll have to be displaced by Babylon or someone eventually.

In terms of an actual opponent, there's Walker's daughter who was taking her convoy of supplies and tools to rebuild in the Fergana Valley. Though yes, her new nation would likely take a couple generations to become anything near a threat since they'd be building from the ground up rather than co-opting an existing civilization like the Acheans.

Personally I'd like to see a follow on series set a couple generations on like that, and for the conflicts to be less black and white instead of the original trilogy's Shiny New United States vs Real Life Mordor. There's no way Nantucket wouldn't be cast as the protagonists of course, but I'd like to be able to look at the antagonist and think "ok, I don't agree with them but I see why they're doing what they're doing." Althea Walker's Carthage to Nantucket's Roman Republic, maneuvering for influence and auctoritas in a generations-long struggle.

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

In terms of an actual opponent, there's Walker's daughter who was taking her convoy of supplies and tools to rebuild in the Fergana Valley. Though yes, her new nation would likely take a couple generations to become anything near a threat since they'd be building from the ground up rather than co-opting an existing civilization like the Acheans.

Personally I'd like to see a follow on series set a couple generations on like that, and for the conflicts to be less black and white instead of the original trilogy's Shiny New United States vs Real Life Mordor. There's no way Nantucket wouldn't be cast as the protagonists of course, but I'd like to be able to look at the antagonist and think "ok, I don't agree with them but I see why they're doing what they're doing." Althea Walker's Carthage to Nantucket's Roman Republic, maneuvering for influence and auctoritas in a generations-long struggle.

I'd definitely enjoy reading that. Hopefully, he'll get on with something like that after he's finished Lord of the Skyscrapers

To a certain extent, a more grey approach would have made for a better series from the get-go. Like, instead of the obviously evil lunatic leaving, and everyone else rallying around Shiny Happy New United States... Have a larger population ISOTed, then have it so that multiple groups leave, each with their own different idea of what the brave new society should look like. Like, have the equivalent of the Nantucketers hang on to try to keep the centre together, but then others all descending on the down-timers to win them over. Sort of like Game of Thrones, except instead of the Houses it's multiple different up-time groups, each with their different agendas and different philosophies...

Hmmmmm....

 

[EnglishCanuck]

Anyone else looking forward to learning more about the Australian political mess up?

Any speculation on who the 'Kingdom of Zeds' in the Indonesian islands are?

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

Anyone else looking forward to learning more about the Australian political mess up?

Any speculation on who the 'Kingdom of Zeds' in the Indonesian islands are?

Not knowing enough about Indonesia, I couldn't say. Capricornia's... Interesting so far. And it's cool to see a Change-made monarch who seems serious about keeping at least some form of democracy alive.

 

[Redcat]

Anyone else looking forward to learning more about the Australian political mess up?

Any speculation on who the 'Kingdom of Zeds' in the Indonesian islands are?

I think Zeds are the Australian term for the "Eaters" so those are probably islands of cannibals.

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

Oh no... I can't believe I'm this slow...

I just realised who King Birmo is... I mean, I should have guessed right away, given that Harry Turtledove turns up in the Drakaverse and in the Nantucket series. The shame of it...

But I shall be ready. When Eric Firestone turns up in Virginia, leading a small town of survivors, I shall immediately know who it is...

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

Actually, this raises a question... How many famous people weathered the Change?

I mean, we know that Charles ruled England; Harrison Ford set up a Bar and Grill in Buddhist territory; John Birmingham rules part of Australia; the Unabomber ran the CUT...and now, apparently, Kim Jong-Il was behind the legions of Hell getting a toehold in Korea. Who else?

I'd like to think that Till Lindemann managed to set up some kind of insane neo-Ostrogoth by way of Goethe kingdom somewhere in Germany. Somewhere called Rammland, whose army makes liberal use of flamethrowers...

 

[schooner]

Actually, this raises a question... How many famous people weathered the Change?

I mean, we know that Charles ruled England; Harrison Ford set up a Bar and Grill in Buddhist territory; John Birmingham rules part of Australia; the Unabomber ran the CUT...and now, apparently, Kim Jong-Il was behind the legions of Hell getting a toehold in Korea. Who else?

I'd like to think that Till Lindemann managed to set up some kind of insane neo-Ostrogoth by way of Goethe kingdom somewhere in Germany. Somewhere called Rammland, whose army makes liberal use of flamethrowers...

For actors, Daniel Day Lewis had a good bit of wilderness survival training (man takes his roles very seriously), so I could picture him surviving. And Samuel L. Jackson is just too much of a badass to get put down by some pissant bunch of Eaters.

 

[Malta]

Actually, this raises a question... How many famous people weathered the Change?

I mean, we know that Charles ruled England; Harrison Ford set up a Bar and Grill in Buddhist territory; John Birmingham rules part of Australia; the Unabomber ran the CUT...and now, apparently, Kim Jong-Il was behind the legions of Hell getting a toehold in Korea. Who else?

I'd like to think that Till Lindemann managed to set up some kind of insane neo-Ostrogoth by way of Goethe kingdom somewhere in Germany. Somewhere called Rammland, whose army makes liberal use of flamethrowers...

Wait. What? Where did the Ford thing come from?

Though largely it depends where they were at the time of the Change, in LA, in an air plane or such. Like Russel Means could have been a leading figure of the Lakota Seven Councils

 

[thekingsguard]

Really? I knew he had people he consulted on Wicca, Asatru, etc., but I didn't know he actually tuckerised them (with the exception of Heather Alexand...I mean Juniper Mckenzie).

Wait, Juniper MacKenzie is an expy of Heather Alexander?

In terms of an actual opponent, there's Walker's daughter who was taking her convoy of supplies and tools to rebuild in the Fergana Valley. Though yes, her new nation would likely take a couple generations to become anything near a threat since they'd be building from the ground up rather than co-opting an existing civilization like the Acheans.

Personally I'd like to see a follow on series set a couple generations on like that, and for the conflicts to be less black and white instead of the original trilogy's Shiny New United States vs Real Life Mordor. There's no way Nantucket wouldn't be cast as the protagonists of course, but I'd like to be able to look at the antagonist and think "ok, I don't agree with them but I see why they're doing what they're doing." Althea Walker's Carthage to Nantucket's Roman Republic, maneuvering for influence and auctoritas in a generations-long struggle.

The sad thing is, William Walker could have been a much more interesting villain had Stelring not gone black and white, and gradually turned Nantucket into ever blander good guys.

I mean, be honest - if you were in a situation like they were, the temptation to basically become a king by your own hand, reforging an empire into your graven image, influencing the world for centuries to come - that's a big temptation, and had Walker been played out as someone who just caved to the temptation to play god, rather than the Mark 1 prototype of Norman Arminger, he could have made an interesting, perhaps sympathetic villain.

 

[EnglishCanuck]

I think Zeds are the Australian term for the "Eaters" so those are probably islands of cannibals.

Well he's calling it a "Zed kingdom" which to me implies some level of organization beyond the usual tribal/pirate/bandit lifestyle most other Easters have adopted. That they'd actually be a threat to Capricornia is another thing entirely (IE naval capabilities).

Maybe potential allies for the Darkest Korea?

Actually, this raises a question... How many famous people weathered the Change?

I mean, we know that Charles ruled England; Harrison Ford set up a Bar and Grill in Buddhist territory; John Birmingham rules part of Australia; the Unabomber ran the CUT...and now, apparently, Kim Jong-Il was behind the legions of Hell getting a toehold in Korea. Who else?

Do we actually have any confirmation on that? I'm just curious since it was what I had assumed, but it would be fabulous if Stirling just coughed up that fact already.

Also Lizzy II survived the first bit of the Change, William is currently king of Great Britain.

As for famous people I would like to see survive...well I want to imagine Robert Jordan sipping whiskey from a fortified homestead surrounded by other survivors in the Carolinas while still working on the Wheel of Time series, Brandon Sanderson as an enthusiastic Mormon clerk whose constantly being admonished by his superiors for 'writing stories rather than genealogies' in New Deseret, while Jim Butcher is hunting game somewhere in Richland

 

[Constantinople]

Harrison Ford is in the Change series?

 

[LHB]

Really? I knew he had people he consulted on Wicca, Asatru, etc., but I didn't know he actually tuckerised them (with the exception of Heather Alexand...I mean Juniper Mckenzie).

I personally know the person he based his Norrheimer seeress off of. She's a real person though the actual seidhwork in the book is HIGHLY exaggerated.

 

[LHB]

Am I the only one who finds the whole blood and soil thing of every character a bit much. I swear literally every character has some internal monologue about the land the people the people are the land. Ok we get they live in a world were farmers are the majority again but if you grew up in this world would be really think about how important the land all the time you wouldn't it would just be instinct. It's like if you wrote a book about America and had ever character commit on the greatness of democracy and they all had internal monologues about the subject .

Another reason I take issue with the "Mighty Whitey" tendency on the books. Blood and Soil+Mighty Whitey=My eyebrows are flying off my head over here.

Especially when you've got the author getting banned from this site for advocating genocide.

 

[Redcat]

Harrison Ford is in the Change series?

In The Scourge of God, Rudi & Co. stop in Wyoming at "Ford's Cowboy Bar and Grill." The one-scene description of the owner puts him at around the correct age (considering the novel is set slightly in the future) and general appearance as Harrison Ford, who IRL does actually have a ranch in Wyoming. The fan theory is that in-universe, Ford was caught at his ranch during the Change and managed to carve out a comfortable, humble life for himself afterwards by building the tavern.

This is all rampant speculation with absolutely no confirmation, of course, but there's nothing that explicitly refutes it either and it's just a fun little fan theory that may or may not be what Stirling intended.

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

Do we actually have any confirmation on that? I'm just curious since it was what I had assumed, but it would be fabulous if Stirling just coughed up that fact already.

As for famous people I would like to see survive...well I want to imagine Robert Jordan sipping whiskey from a fortified homestead surrounded by other survivors in the Carolinas while still working on the Wheel of Time series, Brandon Sanderson as an enthusiastic Mormon clerk whose constantly being admonished by his superiors for 'writing stories rather than genealogies' in New Deseret, while Jim Butcher is hunting game somewhere in Richland

Well, Empress Reiko referred to 'the man who was their ruler then, who had escaped Pyongyang and hidden with his closest followers in a mountain fortress...' So I'd guess that's who Stirling meant.

I like those. I like them a lot. And then, in another few decades, the Dúnedain come across Jordan's homestead and his work, and there's a schism between the Tolkienites and the New Aes Sedai

As a wider thing, does anyone else think that some of Stirling's other independent work (not his T2 series, obviously) is linked to the Emberverse? I just got thinking about it when I was re-reading The High King (or Tears of the Sun?) and when Martin Thurston gets possessed, there's a remark that the Evil Force doesn't need to bargain for souls, they 'give themselves'. Which is very similar to a remark that Count Ignatieff made in the Peshawar Lancers, where he said basically the exact same thing about Malik Nous/Chernobog. OK, a small thing, but...we never really get an answer as to why the Precogs appeared in Russia after the Fall. Between that and the sheer weirdness of Satanism becoming the main religion in the Russian Empire... Maybe the Antagonist part of the Mind caused the Peacock Angel cult to appear in the Lancerverse, the way they turned the CUT from a fringe group into the Big Bad in the Emberverse.

And I still think that outside influence is the only way no-one noticed the Draka threat until it was too late...

 

[Kaiphranos]

Wait, Juniper MacKenzie is an expy of Heather Alexander?



The sad thing is, William Walker could have been a much more interesting villain had Stelring not gone black and white, and gradually turned Nantucket into ever blander good guys.

I mean, be honest - if you were in a situation like they were, the temptation to basically become a king by your own hand, reforging an empire into your graven image, influencing the world for centuries to come - that's a big temptation, and had Walker been played out as someone who just caved to the temptation to play god, rather than the Mark 1 prototype of Norman Arminger, he could have made an interesting, perhaps sympathetic villain.

Not to get too off-topic, but Isketerol (the guy who becomes king of Tartessos) and McAndrews, the guy who runs off to Egypt, provide some grayer villains/opponents of the Nantucketers. Walker and his clique are there to represent the worst parts of the 20th century.