Effects of a German Venezuela on the Spanish American wars of independence (Specially grand Colombia)

[zarathustra]

Hello!
I've been reading about the independence of Latin America recently, and something that consistently comes up is the significant role that Venezuela (what later became Venezuela) played in the downfall of Gran Colombia. I'm still trying to understand the specifics of how Venezuela's differences and influence were pivotal. I would appreciate more insights on the differences between the divisions of New Granada and the main ideological parties. My point, however, relates to how the history of Gran Colombia(New Granada) might have unfolded if there had been a German colony in the area. This idea of a German colony has been previously discussed, but the scenario I'm considering involves a significant portion of what would become Venezuela(I imagine east Venezuela and Guyana) being part of this German state (whose name I'm yet to create)
Would this eventually smaller Gran Colombia be more stable? And how would this German Colony work, especially demographically speaking(I don't really know how the Germans would deal with slavery and stuff)?

 

[Nivek]

Hello!
I've been reading about the independence of Latin America recently, and something that consistently comes up is the significant role that Venezuela (what later became Venezuela) played in the downfall of Gran Colombia. I'm still trying to understand the specifics of how Venezuela's differences and influence were pivotal. I would appreciate more insights on the differences between the divisions of New Granada and the main ideological parties. My point, however, relates to how the history of Gran Colombia(New Granada) might have unfolded if there had been a German colony in the area. This idea of a German colony has been previously discussed, but the scenario I'm considering involves a significant portion of what would become Venezuela(I imagine east Venezuela and Guyana) being part of this German state (whose name I'm yet to create)
Would this eventually smaller Gran Colombia be more stable? And how would this German Colony work, especially demographically speaking(I don't really know how the Germans would deal with slavery and stuff)?

Dude butterflies, Miranda among others are butterflied away plus a german colony in Venezuela(that was far west you think https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klein-Venedig
) is also a safe have for some revolutionaries and might even accelerated things too

 

[zarathustra]

Dude butterflies, Miranda among others are butterflied away plus a german colony in Venezuela(that was far west you think https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klein-Venedig
) is also a safe have for some revolutionaries and might even accelerated things too

lol true. Don`t ask me why I thought it was in guyana. How was Spain relation with the Germans?(I know Spain approved the colony and everything, but what was the deal)

 

[Nivek]

lol true. Don`t ask me why I thought it was in guyana. How was Spain relation with the Germans?(I know Spain approved the colony and everything, but what was the deal)

Seems the general idea was let the Germans manage That lands in exchange of support in the hre wars. So more like selling the lands/colonial Rights to get support on Europe

 

[AsukaEMP]

lol true. Don`t ask me why I thought it was in guyana. How was Spain relation with the Germans?(I know Spain approved the colony and everything, but what was the deal)

The land was not given to a German state but the Welser family, who were important money lenders to Emperor Charles V (also King of Castille, Duke of Brabant, Count of Flanders, etc.), as a means to pay back the emperor's debts. As Venezuela hadn't been properly colonized yet this was seen as a win-win, the emperor got rid of his debts and wouldn't have to make the direct investments to colonize Venezuela, while the Welsers would be able to reap the profits of the colony in the long run.​

 

[holycookie]

My point, however, relates to how the history of Gran Colombia(New Granada) might have unfolded if there had been a German colony in the area.

Supposing that the colonization of Venezuela by the German banking family is successful, I imagine that we will have a German elite followed by a mestizo and natives (if they mix with the locals) and at the bottom black slaves. If they don't mix it will be a simple division of whites (Germans) and the rest below. The changes caused by this German colonization make it impossible for us to discuss with certainty about something as specific as Gran Colombia. Now assuming that this is the only difference in America in otl. They will not want to be part of the Hispanic idea, so assuming they declare independence in the future, they will be independent from the rest

This idea of a German colony has been previously discussed,

@Kurd Gossemer has a german venezuela in his tl

Would this eventually smaller Gran Colombia be more stable?

Maybe, this will depend on several factors. It is difficult to say something without first having a chronology.

And how would this German Colony work, especially demographically speaking

This will depend on the immigration rate, size of the white population, whether this population mixes like the Spanish and Portuguese or behaves like the English, economic composition of the colony, infrastructure, type of government, etc.

(I don't really know how the Germans would deal with slavery and stuff)?

like everyone else.

 

[historylearner]

Hello!
I've been reading about the independence of Latin America recently, and something that consistently comes up is the significant role that Venezuela (what later became Venezuela) played in the downfall of Gran Colombia. I'm still trying to understand the specifics of how Venezuela's differences and influence were pivotal. I would appreciate more insights on the differences between the divisions of New Granada and the main ideological parties. My point, however, relates to how the history of Gran Colombia(New Granada) might have unfolded if there had been a German colony in the area. This idea of a German colony has been previously discussed, but the scenario I'm considering involves a significant portion of what would become Venezuela(I imagine east Venezuela and Guyana) being part of this German state (whose name I'm yet to create)
Would this eventually smaller Gran Colombia be more stable? And how would this German Colony work, especially demographically speaking(I don't really know how the Germans would deal with slavery and stuff)?

Honestly there might not even be a Gran Colombia. Any Venezuela which breaks free from Germany would be culturally and likely economically and politically different from the rest of Otl gran Colombia. My belief is that either neither exist or Gran Colombia might survive but just as a larger Colombia

 

[Madhukar_Shah]

As Venezuela hadn't been properly colonized yet this was seen as a win-win, the emperor got rid of his debts and wouldn't have to make the direct investments to colonize Venezuela, while the Welsers would be able to reap the profits of the colony in the long run.

Honestly I feel like the Welser family would either relocate to Spain to better manage the colony/ keep the Spanish crown from seizing it, or alternatively split into a Spanish and a German branch like the habsburgs.

Just because the profits of the colony are going to a German or a family of German origin doesn’t mean the primary pool of settlers won’t be Spanish.

I could see the arrangement of the colony being a personal fief within the Spanish empire lasting through the 17th century, but it seems like it would be difficult to have it survive the bourbon inheritance of Spain- perhaps you’d need to keep the habsburgs in Spain. Perhaps as the Spanish empire declines, it ends up resembling the duchy of courland in that either France or Britain try and muscle in on succession disputes the way Russia muscled in on the plc

 

[Nivek]

survive the bourbon inheritance of Spain-

Butterflies but would be interesting if that split made the colony both de jure and de facto independent

 

[zarathustra]

with certainty about something as specific as Gran Colombia

Honestly there might not even be a Gran Colombia.

I'm sorry, I messed up things

When I referred to "Gran Colombia", I was thinking more about the region of the Viceroyalty of New Granda (or whatever this region would be called. I think at this time it was still the soutern part of New Spain or the Viceroyality of Peru when the latter enconpassed all Spanish possessions in south America), and not specifically the "Republic of Gran Colombia". Once again, sorry. My question should be more in the lines of "How the independence of spanish colonies in south america would unfold given the existence of a ""German"" Colony in the region". Like how even Spain would latter split the region after the 1600 and etc

 

[Nivek]

I'm sorry, I messed up things

When I referred to "Gran Colombia", I was thinking more about the region of the Viceroyalty of New Granda (or whatever this region would be called. I think at this time it was still the soutern part of New Spain or the Viceroyality of Peru when the latter enconpassed all Spanish possessions in south America), and not specifically the "Republic of Gran Colombia". Once again, sorry. My question should be more in the lines of "How the independence of spanish colonies in south america would unfold given the existence of a ""German"" Colony in the region". Like how even Spain would latter split the region after the 1600 and etc

In general, that might affect some migrations flow but for some, the German Neighboor would be a far different world altogether, something to trade but very different from the Spanish colonial system

 

[holycookie]

I'm sorry, I messed up things

its ok

How the independence of spanish colonies in south america would unfold given the existence of a ""German"" Colony in the region". Like how even Spain would latter split the region after the 1600 and etc

It depends on how it is organized, how much power the banking family has, who the immigrants from that colony are, whether there will be mismigenation, how dependent the colony is on the crown, how many slaves the region has, what the economy of the colony is, etc. But as a whole it will be a colony that will be independent from the rest of the Spanish colonial empire. Especially if the government language is German. they will receive German immigration (not much due to the terrible climate for Europeans in the region). But much more than in otl.

the German Neighboor would be a far different world altogether, something to trade but very different from the Spanish colonial system

Yes, an ally because they are part of the same empire plus a neighbor without a strong cultural connection.

 

[zarathustra]

how much power the banking family has

what happened with the Welser later? Did they Honestly make profit with this piece of distant land on the other side of the world?
Honestly I find this idea really interesting, I wonder if there were more families powerful enough and with good relations with the crown, to be ""given"" a piece of their colonies(not applying only to Spain).

"German Colonies" in the tropics is such a whacky theme. Of course, there was no "Germany" at the time, but now I wonder how this could even affect later "German" [proposed] colonial projects. But I think this could be reserved for a different thread I need to read more about such proposals, and their respective patrons.

German interest in the Caribbean - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

German colonial projects before 1871 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[holycookie]

what happened with the Welser later?

part of the family was extinct and part is still alive today

Did they Honestly make profit with this piece of distant land on the other side of the world?

They actively participated in the slave trade in the Caribbean, and I see them being very brutal in Venezuela. Something like OTL Indian company, with profit above all else making hell on earth. They also captured and enslaved local Amerindians in venezuela. In 1528, King Charles V provided the Welsers with privileges within the African slave trade and conquests of the Americas as a reward for their financial contributions to his election in 1519. So they would probably make Venezuela the central area of control for the slave trade in the Caribbean, in addition to probably making a lot of profit from minerals and plantations in the region. Imagine something like the Dutch Republic on a smaller scale in the Caribbean, but being a loyal part of Spain, I would say that interestingly this would help Spain fight the English, French and Dutch in the Caribbean. Perhaps the privateer's right to this family to attack the ships of Spain's rivals.

 

[holycookie]

Honestly I feel like the Welser family would either relocate to Spain to better manage the colony/ keep the Spanish crown from seizing it, or alternatively split into a Spanish and a German branch like the habsburgs.

Just because the profits of the colony are going to a German or a family of German origin doesn’t mean the primary pool of settlers won’t be Spanish.

In otl they tended to use Germans so I think they will probably want to import Germans into the colony. Especially due to the loyalty of these people to the family and not the crown. A small number of German settlers and a larger number of slaves were sent to the colony but they died in OTL. If they dont this will probably be Welser's method. So the structure of the colony as a whole will be German. With natives and black people being enslaved and abused by a colony controlled by a bank that seeks profit above all else. OTL venezela has was whites at 25% of the population, So in this TL this being 30% is not that hard (maybe even 40%). The country's population is small enough for this to occur. Something around 30% is more than enough for the Germans to maintain control of the colony. In OTL About 85% of the population lives in urban areas in the northern portion of the country and currently resides in the urban conglomerations (Caracas, Maracay, Maracaibo, Valencia, etc.) that are concentrated in Venezuela's northern coastal mountain strip. If that is a German exclusive zone they maintain even more power.

 

[traminer]

"German Colonies" in the tropics is such a whacky theme. Of course, there was no "Germany" at the time, but now I wonder how this could even affect later "German" [proposed] colonial projects. But I think this could be reserved for a different thread I need to read more about such proposals, and their respective patrons.

May I interest you in a timeline about the colonies of the Baltic German-led Duchy of Courland and Semigallia?

 

[holycookie]

 

[AsukaEMP]

OTL venezela has was whites at 25% of the population, So in this TL this being 30% is not that hard (maybe even 40%). The country's population is small enough for this to occur. Something around 30% is more than enough for the Germans to maintain control of the colony. In OTL About 85% of the population lives in urban areas in the northern portion of the country and currently resides in the urban conglomerations (Caracas, Maracay, Maracaibo, Valencia, etc.) that are concentrated in Venezuela's northern coastal mountain strip. If that is a German exclusive zone they maintain even more power.

Actually I think the opposite would happen, IOTL the relatively large share of criollos (locally born Spaniards) in the population was because both natives and enslaved Africans were much fewer in number than in other colonies. I found estimated of around 100.000 slaves being imported to Venezuela throughout the colonial period, with around 60.000 being in the colony at the turn of the 19th century. By comparison 100.000 slaves entered Cuba in the 15 years between 1790 and 1805 alone. And Jamaica imported just under a million during the 18th century.

Now I do believe it's perfectly possible for the white population (be it Spanish or German) tobe larger than OTL in absolute numbers. But with the Welsers in charge we'd see a lot more African slaves being imported to the colony, and I highly doubt that the Europeans settlers could keep up with the increase of those numbers. So as a percentage it'd be lower.

The second issue is that all of the ideal cropland for plantations in Venezuela is situated in that norhtern strip of land around the mountains. Coffee, cacao, sugar, cotton, and tobaco, they're all grown in that region. Everything south of that is dominated cattle ranching. So making it a zone of exclusively European settlers is simply impossible as long as the Atlantic slave trade comes into play.​

 

[holycookie]

Actually I think the opposite would happen, IOTL the relatively large share of criollos,​

Another piece of information that I got from Venezuela (this one from the wiki) says thatIn total today in Venezuela there are around 33% being caboclos (white + Indian), 33% white, 32% mulattos (black+white), 21%, black 8%, indigenous 4%. So it's very diverse, but that will depend on how the Germans behave.

. But with the Welsers in charge we'd see a lot more African slaves being imported to the colony

They will import a lot of black people, the question is will these slaves reproduce? Probably not, considering that it will be managed by a bank, they will probably have a lifespan similar to Brazilian slaves (which was very short).The majority of mulattoes come from mixed origins between white men and black women. Whether this will happen will depend on whether the Germans mix with the black slaves or not.

So making it a zone of exclusively European settlers is simply impossible as long as the Atlantic slave trade comes into play.​

It will partly depend on the behavior of the colonists whether they will strongly segregate whites from blacks or not. If so, there will be regions of white exclusion. If it doesn't segregate it will be more mixed. Again this will completely depend on the behavior of the Germans.

 

[Leonidas]

I think the impact of settler colonialism is overstated in this period. The colony could develop a German upper class but would remain mostly Hispanophone due to inertia and non-European due to the climate, similar to a longer-lasting Dutch Brazil.