Interesting. The Grand Dauphin as king will have repercussions I'd want to see a lot.
Drunk on Bourbon
- Thread starter Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
- Start date
I was following the original, nice to see this continued. Also like the title. 
The Bavarians seem to have a very strong position in this TL. Does one of Joseph's daughters marry into the Wittelsbach dynasty as IOTL? Given the barrage of Charles line from Austria and Bohemia, could be interesting down the line.. Bavaria inheriting Austria and Bohemia would be in a strong position to take over the Imperial Mantle. Could also spell interesting times for Germany as a whole.
Also, the Tories did win the 1702 elections according to the wiki. Can't wait to see more.
The Bavarians seem to have a very strong position in this TL. Does one of Joseph's daughters marry into the Wittelsbach dynasty as IOTL? Given the barrage of Charles line from Austria and Bohemia, could be interesting down the line.. Bavaria inheriting Austria and Bohemia would be in a strong position to take over the Imperial Mantle. Could also spell interesting times for Germany as a whole.
Also, the Tories did win the 1702 elections according to the wiki. Can't wait to see more.
Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
Does one of Joseph's daughters marry into the Wittelsbach dynasty as IOTL? Given the barrage of Charles line from Austria and Bohemia, could be interesting down the line.. Bavaria inheriting Austria and Bohemia would be in a strong position to take over the Imperial Mantle. Could also spell interesting times for Germany as a whole.
No, the Bavarian gains make any such marriage impossible for now. Habsburg-Wittelsbach reconciliation will require the return of the Tyrol and Milan at the very least, which neither Max Emanuel nor Charles Albert will agree to. Besides, the Habsburgs are quite aware of how messy their family situation is and won't allow the Wittelsbachs to take advantage of it.
Joseph's eldest married the brother of the Portuguese king, his youngest the Savoyard heir, on the assumption that Portugal and Savoy are unwilling or unable to pursue any claims that may result from these marriages. Problem is, the woman Joseph married now is a bit too related to him. If the 2 of them don't establish a viable line, it's either his daughters' kids, which would mean the end of the House of Habsburg in Germany, or his brother and his kids, which would mean war.
Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
1724
Emperor Joseph I and King Charles III of Hungary denounce the succession pact of 1703.
1725
Maximilian II Emanuel of Bavaria dies and Charles Albert is crowned elector.
The First Treaty of Vienna is signed between France and the Habsburg sovereigns of Austria and Hungary.
The First Treaty of Vienna
The French agree that, should the Holy Roman Emperor die without heirs within the next 5 years (in accordance with last year's denunciation, the treaty considers Joseph's daughters and their offspring excluded from the succession), they would support one of the Hungarian Habsburgs as successor to the Austro-Bohemian lands. This is in direct contradiction to the 22-year old Treaty of Carlsbad that had ended Austria's involvement in the War of Spanish Succession.
Secret articles of the treaty lay out the price of this support: the King of Hungary is to give up his children's inheritance rights in Parma and Tuscany to the Duke of Berry. (These articles are secret because the Treaty of Naples, regulating that inheritance, was also secret.)
The reason for this treaty, which took many European leaders by surprise, is that the Austrians had intercepted some of the secret Bavarian-Savoyard diplomatic correspondence and were almost certain that a deal had been made to drive the Habsburgs out of Austria should the right circumstances emerge. Though not entirely convinced that this was not an Austrian ploy, the French took the information seriously enough to negotiate this agreement.
1726
The autonomy of Valencia is abolished.
1727
The Archduke Ferdinand (born 1714), Emperor Joseph I's only surviving son, is proclaimed King of Bohemia. Ferdinand is, like the last Habsburg ruler of Spain, showing the signs of inbreeding. Charles III of Hungary, Frederick William of Prussia and Frederick Augustus of Saxony are designated as regents. This is meant to encourage Prussian and Saxon support for Ferdinand's succession to the throne of the Empire, as it is becoming clear that the Bavarian elector would like that throne for himself.
1728
The 9 prince-electors, gathered in Frankfurt, elect Archduke Ferdinand as King of the Romans. His rival, the Elector of Bavaria, receives 2 votes: that of his own state and that of Cologne, whose archbishop (Ferdinand Maria Innocent) is his brother. The election is a disappointment for Charles Albert; though he thought it unlikely to win, he had hoped that Hanover would side with him given the recent Bourbon-Habsburg rapprochement.
Navarrese autonomy is suppressed.
George I of England dies in London. The crown passes to his 44-year-old son.
1729
The Habsburgs negotiate the 2nd Treaty of Vienna with France, extending the previous agreement to cover Joseph I's entire lifetime and the first 2 years of Ferdinand's reign as emperor, should he live to see them. To strengthen Bourbon-Habsburg ties, it is agreed that a marriage will take place in the future between Ferdinand and Anne Louise (born 1713), the Dauphin's eldest daughter. Louis XV has, in the years since the First Treaty of Vienna, not only become convinced of the authenticity of the Austrian allegations (which many in his court still doubt) but also deduced that the Bavarian-Savoyard scheme called for a transfer of Milan. He finds the prospect of a union between the Habsburg realms less troubling than that of 2 powerful dynasties dominating France's western flank.
The Spanish crown abolishes Catalonia's autonomy.
Emperor Joseph I and King Charles III of Hungary denounce the succession pact of 1703.
1725
Maximilian II Emanuel of Bavaria dies and Charles Albert is crowned elector.
The First Treaty of Vienna is signed between France and the Habsburg sovereigns of Austria and Hungary.
The First Treaty of Vienna
The French agree that, should the Holy Roman Emperor die without heirs within the next 5 years (in accordance with last year's denunciation, the treaty considers Joseph's daughters and their offspring excluded from the succession), they would support one of the Hungarian Habsburgs as successor to the Austro-Bohemian lands. This is in direct contradiction to the 22-year old Treaty of Carlsbad that had ended Austria's involvement in the War of Spanish Succession.
Secret articles of the treaty lay out the price of this support: the King of Hungary is to give up his children's inheritance rights in Parma and Tuscany to the Duke of Berry. (These articles are secret because the Treaty of Naples, regulating that inheritance, was also secret.)
The reason for this treaty, which took many European leaders by surprise, is that the Austrians had intercepted some of the secret Bavarian-Savoyard diplomatic correspondence and were almost certain that a deal had been made to drive the Habsburgs out of Austria should the right circumstances emerge. Though not entirely convinced that this was not an Austrian ploy, the French took the information seriously enough to negotiate this agreement.
1726
The autonomy of Valencia is abolished.
1727
The Archduke Ferdinand (born 1714), Emperor Joseph I's only surviving son, is proclaimed King of Bohemia. Ferdinand is, like the last Habsburg ruler of Spain, showing the signs of inbreeding. Charles III of Hungary, Frederick William of Prussia and Frederick Augustus of Saxony are designated as regents. This is meant to encourage Prussian and Saxon support for Ferdinand's succession to the throne of the Empire, as it is becoming clear that the Bavarian elector would like that throne for himself.
1728
The 9 prince-electors, gathered in Frankfurt, elect Archduke Ferdinand as King of the Romans. His rival, the Elector of Bavaria, receives 2 votes: that of his own state and that of Cologne, whose archbishop (Ferdinand Maria Innocent) is his brother. The election is a disappointment for Charles Albert; though he thought it unlikely to win, he had hoped that Hanover would side with him given the recent Bourbon-Habsburg rapprochement.
Navarrese autonomy is suppressed.
George I of England dies in London. The crown passes to his 44-year-old son.
1729
The Habsburgs negotiate the 2nd Treaty of Vienna with France, extending the previous agreement to cover Joseph I's entire lifetime and the first 2 years of Ferdinand's reign as emperor, should he live to see them. To strengthen Bourbon-Habsburg ties, it is agreed that a marriage will take place in the future between Ferdinand and Anne Louise (born 1713), the Dauphin's eldest daughter. Louis XV has, in the years since the First Treaty of Vienna, not only become convinced of the authenticity of the Austrian allegations (which many in his court still doubt) but also deduced that the Bavarian-Savoyard scheme called for a transfer of Milan. He finds the prospect of a union between the Habsburg realms less troubling than that of 2 powerful dynasties dominating France's western flank.
The Spanish crown abolishes Catalonia's autonomy.
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You've butterflied away the end of the male Habsburg line in 1740, but you just delayed something that probabilities and pedigree collapse will eventually cause to happen.
Thande
Donor
At this point party discipline isn't what it would be later and I think a lot of MPs had no stated allegiance. in OTL after the 1702 election a Coalition Ministry was formed. It was mostly made up of Tories, which the Queen personally favoured (and back then that meant something) but did include Robert Harley, a leading Whig, as the Secretary of State for the Northern Department*, considered approximately the third most important cabinet post at that point.
*England and later Great Britain originally had a Secretary of State for the Northern Department, responsible for both domestic affairs in northern England and Scotland and foreign relations with northern Europe such as Scandinavia, the Netherlands and the German states, and a Secretary of State for the Southern Department whose responsibilities were domestic affairs in southern England and foreign relations with 'everyone else', principally France and the Mediterranean countries. Unsurprisingly the Southern Secretary was considered the senior and more important post. In OTL this was rationalised in the late 18th century to the modern division of Home Secretary for all domestic affairs and Foreign Secretary for all foreign (and colonial) affairs.
Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
I knew about the Northern and Southern Departments, but thanks for the link. Didn't Harley turn Tory after he was brought in?
I'm thinking that the course of the war and the peace treaty could lead to Tory gains in the next election (which should be in 1705 at the latest). They could portray it as a vindication of their proposed strategy (fighting the French on the seas rather than in Europe) and Louis' recognition of the Act of Settlement could help those who favor striking a deal with James Stewart since they would be harder to portray as French agents.
Thande
Donor
Perhaps. It's worth remembering that under the unreformed House of Commons elections weren't as decisive as they would be later though. Most places elected two MPs and there were often gentleman's agreements to allocate them to one Whig and one Tory and leave them uncontested. The vast majority of MPs were scions of powerful families who controlled seats. However do bear in mind most of my research comes from later in the century when things had set in and things might have been a bit more competitive so soon after the Glorious Revolution.
Bottom line is that while the Tories may indeed get the upper hand because of what you mention, it may well be a case of former Whigs or unaligned MPs crossing the aisle to become Tories rather than through a turnover of MPs through electoral success.
So party politics isn't as prominent like it would be three-quarters of a century later?
Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
That's it so far, I don't think I'll be posting much until next spring. I welcome questions about the dynastic situation in Austria and Italy, which I realize is rather complicated. Below is a map of Europe on January 1, 1731; I welcome questions on it as well.
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Thande
Donor
Actually no I would say it was more prominent now (1700-ish) than it would be in the 1780s, just because by the 1780s the Tories were pretty much dead as a political party so it had become a contest between different Whig factions. We refer to Pitt the Younger now as a Tory but at the time he described himself as a 'reform Whig', and his faction of Whigs were only labelled Tories because they were perceived as the stooges of the king by other Whigs, hence it was an insulting term.
In the early 1700s, party identity was very important, but party discipline and organisation barely existed. Ministries didn't necessarily have to be made up entirely of Whigs or entirely of Tories. There was no central authority that governed either party and could say "You are expelled from the Whig Party for doing XYZ", being a Whig or Tory was just what people said to define their position, originally on the Stuart issue. It's kind of like modern Americans describing themselves as "Liberals or Conservatives".
Oh. So what party you were mattered, it was just that it was not as formalized as it would be later?
Thande
Donor
Yes, it was more of a personal declaration. Some people were regarded as 'prominent Whigs or Tories' and became natural candidates for ministries, and those people helped define Whig or Tory ideological approaches to new issues, but ultimately they couldn't order other Whigs or Tories to take a party line on anything. It was more tribal than anything, especially in OTL after the original issue (the Stuart succession) had become irrelevant. Think of it like if the US still had a Pro-George Washington Party and an Anti-George Washington Party...in 1834.
Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
I'm thinking of making a series of maps, based on the existing ones, depicting the territorial changes and the provisions of the secret agreements. What do people think?
Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
Territorial changes in Eastern Europe:
Brown: Prussian gains by the Treaty of Carlsbad (1703)
Gray: Swedish gains by the Treaty of Kustrin (1704)
Green: Polish gains by the Treaty of Dorpat (1706)
Purple: Swedish gains by the Treaty of Dorpat
Red: Russian gains by the Treaty of Semlin (1713)
Blue: Polish gains by the Treaty of Semlin
Brown: Prussian gains by the Treaty of Carlsbad (1703)
Gray: Swedish gains by the Treaty of Kustrin (1704)
Green: Polish gains by the Treaty of Dorpat (1706)
Purple: Swedish gains by the Treaty of Dorpat
Red: Russian gains by the Treaty of Semlin (1713)
Blue: Polish gains by the Treaty of Semlin
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Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
Territorial changes in the Balkans by the Treaty of Semlin (1713):
Red: Turkish gains
Blue: Hungarian gains
Green: Transylvanian gains
Red: Turkish gains
Blue: Hungarian gains
Green: Transylvanian gains
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Valdemar II
Banned
The part of Bosnia are quite interesting historical and even today the area was vastly Muslim majority (85-95 of the population). It's also lowland, so we are likely going to see the local Muslim population being mostly expelled. The interesting aspect are whom are going to replace them. At this point in history we saw a large migration of Christians from Ottoman territories to Habsburg territoriums, and from the lowlands to the highlands. This was a result of a general Ottoman mismanagement of the Balkans in this periode. But we also saw large scale German migration to Hungarian domains in this periode. So we may seee the are either end up as a German enclave or as Serbian populated. I lean mostly to the former because we mostly saw the migration of Serbs after the Habsburg loss of Serbia in 1739.
Of course this also make me think about other difference in demography, religion and politics. The Habsburg domain are quite different at this point, they have lost all their only faithful Catholic area beside Croatia. Transsylvania are dominated by Calvinist nobles, so are Hungary to lesser degree. Silesia are official Low Lutheran, while most of Bohemia and Austrias population are still secret (High) Lutherans. In OTL it was only with Maria Theresa rule this really changed. A major aspect was the deportation of the more stubborn Protestants to Transsylvania. This was a important aspect in keeping the German communities in Transsylvania alive.
Austria may here with the lack of any really Catholic areas and a weak Catholic powerbase look toward increasing tolerance toward Protestants, both as a way to improve their bond to potential allies in Germany and Scandinavia (Sweden). You could also see attempts to take over to gain control over the Church, maybe by setting up independent Catholic Church in both Austria and Hungary. When Joseph tried that later the protest and revolt against that happened in Tyrol, Galicia and Austrian Netherland, none of those are part of the Habsburgs domain at this point. So it wouldn't be impossible.
Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
Interesting thoughts. Do you think German migration would still happen with Hungary separated from Austria and possessing a diet that actually has a say in how the country is run? But Serbs had been migrating northward since the 14th or 15th century and one large mass of them had made the journey as recently as 1690. They were living as far as the borders of modern-day Slovakia. Since the Bosnian gain was assigned to the Military Frontier, I rather expect it to be populated with a mix of Serbs, Croats and Vlachs like the other sections.
The religious situation in Austria I hadn't considered at all. Were there any crypto-Lutherans among the nobility? And weren't some of the Bohemian Protestants Calvinists and Hussites?
Territorial changes in the western Mediterranean:
Light green: Bavarian gains by the Treaty of Carlsbad (1703)
Light blue: Savoyard gains by the Treaty of Carlsbad
Purple: French gains by the Treaty of Carlsbad
Dark green: Savoyard gains by the Treaty of Carlsbad, Modenese gains by the Treaty of Middelburg (1704)
Dark blue: Bavarian gains by the Treaty of Carlsbad, Grisons gains by agreement with Bavaria (1710)
Red: Mantuan gains by the Treaty of Middelburg (1704)
Gray: Savoyard gains by the Treaty of Middelburg
Orange: Modenese gains by the Treaty of Middelburg
Yellow: Bavarian gains by agreement with the 3 Leagues (1710)
Brown: French gains by agreement with Genoa (1713)
The religious situation in Austria I hadn't considered at all. Were there any crypto-Lutherans among the nobility? And weren't some of the Bohemian Protestants Calvinists and Hussites?
Territorial changes in the western Mediterranean:
Light green: Bavarian gains by the Treaty of Carlsbad (1703)
Light blue: Savoyard gains by the Treaty of Carlsbad
Purple: French gains by the Treaty of Carlsbad
Dark green: Savoyard gains by the Treaty of Carlsbad, Modenese gains by the Treaty of Middelburg (1704)
Dark blue: Bavarian gains by the Treaty of Carlsbad, Grisons gains by agreement with Bavaria (1710)
Red: Mantuan gains by the Treaty of Middelburg (1704)
Gray: Savoyard gains by the Treaty of Middelburg
Orange: Modenese gains by the Treaty of Middelburg
Yellow: Bavarian gains by agreement with the 3 Leagues (1710)
Brown: French gains by agreement with Genoa (1713)
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