Dracula, the Scourge of God defeats the Ottomans

[New Potomac]

Second-class status for non Christians. The whole she-bang.

The Greeks enjoyed a large amount of religious and economic freedom within the Ottoman Empire. In fact quite a few Sultan's had a Greek mother. Besides that I doubt Vlad, which would have become known for pillaging everything from Bulgaria to the Hagia Sophia, would be viewed as a liberator or the standard of freedom.

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

The Greeks enjoyed a large amount of religious and economic freedom within the Ottoman Empire. In fact every Sultan had a Greek mother. Besides that I doubt Vlad, which would have become known for pillaging everything from Bulgaria to the Hagia Sophia, wouldn't be viewed as a liberator or the standard of freedom.

Who said he was going to be a liberator? The zeal of a Christian exacting revenge on supposedly infidel Muslim Turks would attract enough attention to Vlad Tepes trying to conquer as much of the Ottoman empire as possible.

 

[New Potomac]

Who said he was going to be a liberator? The zeal of a Christian exacting revenge on supposedly infidel Muslim Turks would attract enough attention to Vlad Tepes trying to conquer as much of the Ottoman empire as possible.

Would it attract attention of the Ottoman Greeks?

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Would it attract attention of the Ottoman Greeks?

Perhaps, depending if Vlad Tepes has a better offer to them than the Ottomans.

 

[New Potomac]

Perhaps, depending if Vlad Tepes has a better offer to them than the Ottomans.

I doubt that Vlad could offer anything better in terms of economics, especially in the scenario where he reaches Constantinople.

On another note, I shall now be proof reading my post more.

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

I doubt that Vlad could offer anything better in terms of economics, especially in the scenario where he reaches Constantinople.

On another note, I shall now be proof reading my post more.

Nothing says that a Vlad-wank resulting in the Ottomans losing Constantinople and their territories in Europe [most likely temporarily] would last long. I can imagine Vlad being a tyrant especially if he is corrupted by the ever so grandeur idea of declaring himself an Emperor in the tradition of the late Byzantine emperor. He would probably either be overthrown eventually or live on and die and then shit gets bad for his successor which by the Ottomans or another power comes into the area.

 

[New Potomac]

Nothing says that a Vlad-wank resulting in the Ottomans losing Constantinople and their territories in Europe [most likely temporarily] would last long. I can imagine Vlad being a tyrant especially if he is corrupted by the ever so grandeur idea of declaring himself an Emperor in the tradition of the late Byzantine emperor. He would probably either be overthrown eventually or live on and die and then shit gets bad for his successor which by the Ottomans or another power comes into the area.

I agree that his rule wouldn't last long. However my point is that if he were to take control of those areas, even temporarily, then it would especially hurt the interest of the Greek merchant class.

 

[reddie]

Well the short answer is no. Hagia sofia was converted the rest werent. No distruction christian sites only places that were looted was the palace and the places which resisted.

On a side note can some one tell me how is vlad going to get through the balkans and thrace uncontested? The balkans was the power base for the ottomans because it had good land generaly wealthy compaired to anatolia plus it was filled with muslims. It wasnt a couple of muslim overlords looking after a hord of christians. And another thing how on earth is vlad going to take the city? He has some how slaughtered the ottoman army fought his way through the balkans and thrace traveld a long distance and now his going to take a city which the ottomans almost failed taking. Lets say he reaches c-town which is empty for the sake of argument (which is a stupid asumption) ass soon as some one from c-town see vlads army coming the navy will be bringing in troops from anatolia .

So lets recap for a moment vlad destroyes the ottoman army and kills mehmet then he fights his way through balkans and thrace reaches the city (ive thrown logistic out the window as you can see hear) gaurds see him lock the gate bring in forces from the anatolia. Whats the state of vlads army he has just defeated the otto armies and traveld a long distance does he have seige equipment ?Does he have an army left with soldiers willing to fight or are they living corpses at this point? How is he going to starve the city of food and soldiers if he doesnt have a navy how is he going to get through the walls and fight the garrisoned troops inside (It too massive cannons to take the city first time around with only couple of thousand troops defending it)? Come on guess be a little realistic hear.BTW Abduls going to blow a gasket when he sees this .

Well, I'm the OP, so I guess I'll try to answer...

(remember, I'm an ecologist, not a military historian...)

Vlad attempted a blitzkrieg-style surprise assault on Constantinople. I imagined, based on Vlad's personality, that he might actually consider pressing his advantage like this when he had the chance.

As to how he managed to get through Bulgaria--well, he got through Bulgaria because he'd already gotten through it the year before. Which, of course, this being Vlad Tepes, means he went through the land like Tamurlane or Genghis Khan. I don't know the Muslim population of Bulgaria/Thrace in 1460, but as of 1461 (when this scenario happens) there were 43,464 fewer Muslims living in the area (Vlad kept count!), with about half of them festooning stakes inside of Wallachia. Vlad also admitted that he didn't bother counting all the Muslims he and his men burned alive inside their houses and mosques.

The Ottomans also couldn't count on Christian allies in Bulgaria--Vlad forcibly re-settled tens of thousands in Wallachia.

I thought it might be safe to assume that Bulgaria and Thrace were in a bit of disarray at this point, and while Vlad and his troops were making their way across the landscape they were marching across enemy land, but devastated enemy land.

I was assuming his blitzkreig was accomplished with only minor skirmishes with the Turks on the way to Constantinople.

I was also going for a sort of "best-laid plans go astray" scenario afflicting the Ottomans. Following Vlad's scouring of Bulgaria and the utter disaster that befell Mehmet, I was assuming that things might be a bit less-than-efficient among the Janissaries there. I was thinking about the sort of military fuck-ups that led to Cyrus defeating the Babylonians and the embarrassing fate of the Egyptian air force back in '63.

As for Constantinople--well, it was contrived, but this is a Vladwank. Vlad has a weaker army than the Ottomans, and there's absolutely no way he could take the city without some sort of backing from another European power. But the idea here was that they couldn't close one of the gates, allowing the Wallachians to get inside the city without much of a siege.

Still unlikely? In the extreme, but given infinite timelines and all that...

But you have a point about the Ottoman navy...

We'll assume things get somewhat more more realistic from this point, but first we've gotta establish Vlad as kind of a big deal.

 

[reddie]

Nothing says that a Vlad-wank resulting in the Ottomans losing Constantinople and their territories in Europe [most likely temporarily] would last long. I can imagine Vlad being a tyrant especially if he is corrupted by the ever so grandeur idea of declaring himself an Emperor in the tradition of the late Byzantine emperor. He would probably either be overthrown eventually or live on and die and then shit gets bad for his successor which by the Ottomans or another power comes into the area.

No kidding. I can absolutely see Vlad behaving very badly with this. I can also see Vlad still haunting the imaginations of both Turks and Europeans centuries down the line, which is kind of where I was going with this.

Simple rule of thumb: if you've got a guy who gets his kicks impaling people on stakes, you don't want him near any sharp objects, much less declaring himself "Emperor" in the most glorious city of the age...!

 

[reddie]

The Greeks enjoyed a large amount of religious and economic freedom within the Ottoman Empire. In fact quite a few Sultan's had a Greek mother. Besides that I doubt Vlad, which would have become known for pillaging everything from Bulgaria to the Hagia Sophia, would be viewed as a liberator or the standard of freedom.

Vlad isn't going to be especially popular with the Greeks--or really anyone outside of Wallachia or various Western European powers with anti-Turkish agendas of their own.

He's the kind of guy who could cause the enmity between Greek/Latin Christians to be truly pronounced. If the Greeks thought the Latin Empire was bad, well...! Ain't seen nuthin' yet...

 

[reddie]

One lone man and an army is not going to crush the Ottoman empire especially in this era where they are arguably the most powerful force in Europe. Then again the same thing was said about Alexander the Great and his conquest of the Persian empire and since reality is often unrealistic, it is quite plausible though still difficult to see Vlad Tepes conquering a large swathe of Ottoman territory. The Greeks and Serbs might be willing to rebel and join Vlad's army in crushing the Ottoman presence in Europe or at least diminish their presence in the area.

Constantinople I can't see him taking though a huge swathe of the Balkans is possible.

The thing about Vlad, as I understand him, was that he was motivated primarily by revenge, sadism, but above all, self-preservation. I don't think he was the kind of guy who'd care if the Turks ruled over the Balkans, as long as they left him alone.

But alas, they didn't, and Vlad fought as much to retain his rule as to slake his lust for vengeance. That's why I imagined him rushing and sacking Constantinople; it was more of a "fuck you" gesture to his enemies than any "soldier of Christiandom" leanings on his part.

 

[Corbell Mark IV]

No kidding. I can absolutely see Vlad behaving very badly with this. I can also see Vlad still haunting the imaginations of both Turks and Europeans centuries down the line, which is kind of where I was going with this.

Simple rule of thumb: if you've got a guy who gets his kicks impaling people on stakes, you don't want him near any sharp objects, much less declaring himself "Emperor" in the most glorious city of the age...!

I like that idea. Especially if it involves an modern day style european nation/large extended royal family that has to live down Vlad THe Impaler as a sort of Father (of nation or family) figure.

Mmm, think of the Mel Gibson historical movie!!!!

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

I like that idea. Especially if it involves an modern day style european nation/large extended royal family that has to live down Vlad THe Impaler as a sort of Father (of nation or family) figure.

Mmm, think of the Mel Gibson historical movie!!!!

Poor Romanians.

 

[Urban fox]

Why assume Vlad’s empire will last? Alexander’s and Tamerlane’s did last long after their death’s I think Vlad’s would be the same. He can annex Greece and Bulgaria. C-Town acts as a perfect chokepoint vis-à-vis the Ottoman’s. After these epic win's I dont think his holding on to power is a problem. Besides if any nobles get uppty to the impaling stake they go.

With garrisons in place and the occasional punitive expedition to crush rebellions in the south. Vlad can turn north and try to unite the rest of the Romanian principalities under his rule. (I’m sure there were other proto-Romanian states). Vlad pulls this off and is able to keep holding off Ottoman counter attacks. When he dies his southern empire is lost. However ‘’Romania’’ remains united and is ruled by his decedents.

So now we have a much more powerful Wallachia/Romainia and the Ottomans are in some disarray, Greece and Bulgaria’s future is uncertain but they’ve likely been devastated by Vlad anyway…

 

[Don Grey]

Why assume Vlad’s empire will last? Alexander’s and Tamerlane’s did last long after their death’s I think Vlad’s would be the same. He can annex Greece and Bulgaria. C-Town acts as a perfect chokepoint vis-à-vis the Ottoman’s. After these epic win's I dont think his holding on to power is a problem. Besides if any nobles get uppty to the impaling stake they go.

With garrisons in place and the occasional punitive expedition to crush rebellions in the south. Vlad can turn north and try to unite the rest of the Romanian principalities under his rule. (I’m sure there were other proto-Romanian states). Vlad pulls this off and is able to keep holding off Ottoman counter attacks. When he dies his southern empire is lost. However ‘’Romania’’ remains united and is ruled by his decedents.

So now we have a much more powerful Wallachia/Romainia and the Ottomans are in some disarray, Greece and Bulgaria’s future is uncertain but they’ve likely been devastated by Vlad anyway…

Well, I'm the OP, so I guess I'll try to answer...

(remember, I'm an ecologist, not a military historian...)

Vlad attempted a blitzkrieg-style surprise assault on Constantinople. I imagined, based on Vlad's personality, that he might actually consider pressing his advantage like this when he had the chance.

As to how he managed to get through Bulgaria--well, he got through Bulgaria because he'd already gotten through it the year before. Which, of course, this being Vlad Tepes, means he went through the land like Tamurlane or Genghis Khan. I don't know the Muslim population of Bulgaria/Thrace in 1460, but as of 1461 (when this scenario happens) there were 43,464 fewer Muslims living in the area (Vlad kept count!), with about half of them festooning stakes inside of Wallachia. Vlad also admitted that he didn't bother counting all the Muslims he and his men burned alive inside their houses and mosques.

The Ottomans also couldn't count on Christian allies in Bulgaria--Vlad forcibly re-settled tens of thousands in Wallachia.

I thought it might be safe to assume that Bulgaria and Thrace were in a bit of disarray at this point, and while Vlad and his troops were making their way across the landscape they were marching across enemy land, but devastated enemy land.

I was assuming his blitzkreig was accomplished with only minor skirmishes with the Turks on the way to Constantinople.

I was also going for a sort of "best-laid plans go astray" scenario afflicting the Ottomans. Following Vlad's scouring of Bulgaria and the utter disaster that befell Mehmet, I was assuming that things might be a bit less-than-efficient among the Janissaries there. I was thinking about the sort of military fuck-ups that led to Cyrus defeating the Babylonians and the embarrassing fate of the Egyptian air force back in '63.

As for Constantinople--well, it was contrived, but this is a Vladwank. Vlad has a weaker army than the Ottomans, and there's absolutely no way he could take the city without some sort of backing from another European power. But the idea here was that they couldn't close one of the gates, allowing the Wallachians to get inside the city without much of a siege.

Still unlikely? In the extreme, but given infinite timelines and all that...

But you have a point about the Ottoman navy...

We'll assume things get somewhat more more realistic from this point, but first we've gotta establish Vlad as kind of a big deal.

These are all well and dandy but you guyz are relying too much on ASB's and handwavium's.
I explain it simply.

logistics: Vlad beates the ottomans in the balkans and blitz to constantinople is hard to say the least.

C-town: Even if the gates are open his army is tired and there are large number of garrisond troops in c-town. But for the sake of argument lets say there isnt the navy will just bring more in from anatolia.

Dynastic problams: mehmet dead so what? Its happend before. The ruling class all stood behind the next heir how ever young he may be because they didnt want problams.

Administration: The ottoman empire was one of if not the finest and most efficent state at the time. They have lost sultans before. They have experiance dealing with such problams. There is also something called a grand vezir and counciles of rulling classes. The sultan wasnt involved in everything that went on within the empire. There are othesr to do it for him. When the sultan came of age and experiance and was strong enough put his fist down then the other steped back. But most of the time the goverment picked up most of the weight involved in ruling the empire.

Garrisons: bulgaria C-town greece etc are newly aquired lands there filled with garrisond troops for security reasons just in case theres a revolt etc.There are probably more ready to fight troops in those areas then there are in anatolia.

Greeks: They enjoyed quite a bit of freedom and there merchant class was very happy because they had access to eastern trade and relativly low taxes compaired to byzantines. The ottomans to be exact sultan mehmet brought the patriarch back to its former glory and power he breathed life back into that dieing instatution. ASlong as the jizya tax (which was quite low) was being payed there was no problam. Best of all the christians didnt have to fight wars as long as the jizye tax was payed they sat there enjoying the wealth that flowed through the empire from conqured lands. Plus there was no such thing as greek at the time that only ment a pagan barbarian as far as the christian orthadox romans were concerned. so there wont be mass revolts or asistance given by the greeks. AS far as the greeks are concerned vlads a tyrant ruining a good thing.

Allies: By the time vlad can send a message to say venice (remember this is the dark ages not modern era it will take time for message to reach let alone help to come) and waits for help from christian nations the ottomans will be the ones on the offensive with the speed to there boots being revenge for killing there beloved sultan and massacaring muslims in the balkans.

What vlad maybe can do at most: Kill mehmet and destroyes the army with the help of asb's. Fights his way through bulgaria and thrace(garrisons in greece have absalutly no idea a christian army is heading towards C-town) with lightning speed (because time is something very valuable to vlad right now) with the power of hand wavium. The gates are open and cant be closed because the ottomans are idiots. But the gaurds on the walls can see him coming. Hornes are blown to say an attack is coming garrision forces rush to the gates reserve men to the walls, navy crosses the boshporus to pick up more men. Grand vezir (sultans second had men and general) assebles remainign forces and leads the army to meat the enemy at the gate. When vlads army is in range men at walls and tower open fire with arrows and cannons. The unlucky ones that make it past the hail of projectile death are slaughterd once they get inside because of the jannissary waiting for them in there. If you think the most important city for the ottomans and one of the most important cities of that time in the world doesnt have a large garrison of cavalry and heavy infantry your living in la-la-land.

Responce: Ottomans will stage a massive counter offensive (yes it will be massive you just tryed to take C-town).

End result: Vlads head on a stick in c-town for his arrogance his army desimated to the last man and walachia burned to the ground for giving birth to vlad.

Now answer these with out "too much" ASB help and handwaviums then i will be subscibed to this TL .I didnt say this to pooh on your TL i am intrested its just that with too much ASB and handwaviums the tls tiresome to read.

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

The creation of the Ottoman state was ASB so I don't see the problem

 

[Don Grey]

The creation of the Ottoman state was ASB so I don't see the problem

Actualy i think they had alot of things going for them naturaly. They were surrounded by turkic peoples. A declining byzantines a divied islamic world a waring christendom.Plus there were too small at first for anyone to see a threat then when they did it was too late. They also learned from there defeats which actualy made them stronger. Plus they had no immediate threats to there exsistance.

Now the mongolian empire was ASB. The ottomans took adventage of oppurtunites that were already present complimented with good leader ship forsight and a stratigic position i dont find it hard to belive realy.

 

[New Potomac]

The creation of the Ottoman state was ASB so I don't see the problem

Not really. There was a gap left by the Byzantines, and the Ottomans were the strongest state to fill that gap.

 

[Corbell Mark IV]

These are all well and dandy but you guyz are relying too much on ASB's and handwavium's.
I explain it simply.

logistics: Vlad beates the ottomans in the balkans and blitz to constantinople is hard to say the least.

C-town: Even if the gates are open his army is tired and there are large number of garrisond troops in c-town. But for the sake of argument lets say there isnt the navy will just bring more in from anatolia.

Dynastic problams: mehmet dead so what? Its happend before. The ruling class all stood behind the next heir how ever young he may be because they didnt want problams.

Administration: The ottoman empire was one of if not the finest and most efficent state at the time. They have lost sultans before. They have experiance dealing with such problams. There is also something called a grand vezir and counciles of rulling classes. The sultan wasnt involved in everything that went on within the empire. There are othesr to do it for him. When the sultan came of age and experiance and was strong enough put his fist down then the other steped back. But most of the time the goverment picked up most of the weight involved in ruling the empire.

Garrisons: bulgaria C-town greece etc are newly aquired lands there filled with garrisond troops for security reasons just in case theres a revolt etc.There are probably more ready to fight troops in those areas then there are in anatolia.

Greeks: They enjoyed quite a bit of freedom and there merchant class was very happy because they had access to eastern trade and relativly low taxes compaired to byzantines. The ottomans to be exact sultan mehmet brought the patriarch back to its former glory and power he breathed life back into that dieing instatution. ASlong as the jizya tax (which was quite low) was being payed there was no problam. Best of all the christians didnt have to fight wars as long as the jizye tax was payed they sat there enjoying the wealth that flowed through the empire from conqured lands. Plus there was no such thing as greek at the time that only ment a pagan barbarian as far as the christian orthadox romans were concerned. so there wont be mass revolts or asistance given by the greeks. AS far as the greeks are concerned vlads a tyrant ruining a good thing.

Allies: By the time vlad can send a message to say venice (remember this is the dark ages not modern era it will take time for message to reach let alone help to come) and waits for help from christian nations the ottomans will be the ones on the offensive with the speed to there boots being revenge for killing there beloved sultan and massacaring muslims in the balkans.

What vlad maybe can do at most: Kill mehmet and destroyes the army with the help of asb's. Fights his way through bulgaria and thrace(garrisons in greece have absalutly no idea a christian army is heading towards C-town) with lightning speed (because time is something very valuable to vlad right now) with the power of hand wavium. The gates are open and cant be closed because the ottomans are idiots. But the gaurds on the walls can see him coming. Hornes are blown to say an attack is coming garrision forces rush to the gates reserve men to the walls, navy crosses the boshporus to pick up more men. Grand vezir (sultans second had men and general) assebles remainign forces and leads the army to meat the enemy at the gate. When vlads army is in range men at walls and tower open fire with arrows and cannons. The unlucky ones that make it past the hail of projectile death are slaughterd once they get inside because of the jannissary waiting for them in there. If you think the most important city for the ottomans and one of the most important cities of that time in the world doesnt have a large garrison of cavalry and heavy infantry your living in la-la-land.

Responce: Ottomans will stage a massive counter offensive (yes it will be massive you just tryed to take C-town).

End result: Vlads head on a stick in c-town for his arrogance his army desimated to the last man and walachia burned to the ground for giving birth to vlad.

Now answer these with out "too much" ASB help and handwaviums then i will be subscibed to this TL .I didnt say this to pooh on your TL i am intrested its just that with too much ASB and handwaviums the tls tiresome to read.

1. Greeks. You talk about how lthe OTtoman rule was in the interests of hte Greeks (especially their merchant class) but people often act against their own interests. The precieved burden of that light tax might suddenly seem more if there is a real chance of zero tax (that tax zero).

2. Perhaps instead of a initial attack on Constantanople, Vlad goes on a more limited rampage, further enraging the Ottomans, then defeats the hastely assembled (poorly lead?) counter attack.

Two victories is more impressive than one. Could this lead to weakness somewhere? Perhaps not C-Town but the Balkans?

Maybe after the second victory the Venitians start talking alliance, and maybe the more sensible Ventians suggest/lead on sweet talking the Greeks. Even if their case is weak, it might still be believed.

(I'm still liking the end game)

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

1. Greeks. You talk about how lthe OTtoman rule was in the interests of hte Greeks (especially their merchant class) but people often act against their own interests. The precieved burden of that light tax might suddenly seem more if there is a real chance of zero tax (that tax zero).

2. Perhaps instead of a initial attack on Constantanople, Vlad goes on a more limited rampage, further enraging the Ottomans, then defeats the hastely assembled (poorly lead?) counter attack.

Two victories is more impressive than one. Could this lead to weakness somewhere? Perhaps not C-Town but the Balkans?

Maybe after the second victory the Venitians start talking alliance, and maybe the more sensible Ventians suggest/lead on sweet talking the Greeks. Even if their case is weak, it might still be believed.

(I'm still liking the end game)

A early and quick end to Ottoman domination in the Balkans? The establishment and creation of a short-lived empire ran by Vlad Tepes and whatever individuals who happen to side with the man running the show. Sounds interesting.