So, I've been thinking about this thing I did in a Shared Worlds project I'm doing, which is making me wonder: How would Rome be able to integrate Judaea into its Imperial system without causing three Jewish revolts and ending up enslaving large portions of Judaea, and how would this have affected Rome and the Jews alike?

Like, client states existed, but is it possible for Judaea to remain so long-term, or to return to being a client state in the chaos of, say, the Year of the Four Emperors (possibly headed by a Sanhedrin based in Jerusalem)? And how would this affect Judaea? How would this affect the already extant Jewish diaspora of the region? And how would this affect the Roman Empire as a whole? For that matter, how would a surviving Second Temple affect early Christianity?
 
not repeatedly pissing them off and just leaving them alone might work, lmao
Yeah. If only.

But I guess that's the problem with Roman politics on the eastern frontier. They established client states, then annexed them without considering the cultures they were assimilating into their system. That's why I'm wondering how it would work. Under more culturally sensitive/savvy emperors and praetors, I wonder if it could have been possible for Judaism to not be persecuted by the Romans.
 
I don't know if Roman rule and the Jewish belief systems as they existed, pre-revolts and their crushing, were compatible.

One classmate of mine in a college 'History of Rome' class said 'Rome wasn't anti-semitic, it was anti-Zionist' ...because it was anti every subject people's political nationalism. Maybe there was something to what he was saying. Whatever rituals Rome wanted from subjects, it also didn't care about people's souls and beliefs, their orthodoxy, they wanted expressions of civic orthopraxy.
 
The crux of the topic seems to be the conflict betwen Greeks and Jews, which unwittingly drags Rome in the mess, in part because Judea's position makes it impossible not to be at least a Roman protectorate (for Roman Egypt's safety) and Roman protectorates inevitably tended to drift towards wanting more and more direct integration (further setting up conflict between Hellenized elites, who very much like it, and the Jewish populace).
One callous way to force coexistence is to rush conflict, basically making OTL Bar Kokhba Revolt the original meetup of the Jewish and Roman world, meaning the pacification would be way earlier and technically integrating Judea with less conflict. Another is having the Maccabean Revolt fail, and Judea remain either under the Seleucids or the Ptolemaids so their Hellenisation is a bit stronger. Peaceful coexistence needs Rome to not hold onto Syria and Egypt.

Both Christianity and Judaism would have a very different trajectory without the destruction of the Second Temple; for one, Christians may remain longer (if not forever) a messianic sect of Judaism, and Judaism will be a bit less decentralised.
 
I don't know if Roman rule and the Jewish belief systems as they existed, pre-revolts and their crushing, were compatible.

One classmate of mine in a college 'History of Rome' class said 'Rome wasn't anti-semitic, it was anti-Zionist' ...because it was anti every subject people's political nationalism. Maybe there was something to what he was saying. Whatever rituals Rome wanted from subjects, it also didn't care about people's souls and beliefs, their orthodoxy, they wanted expressions of civic orthopraxy.
I'm very curious how Romans were anti zionist.

Before it was invented.

The Jewish revolt was prompted by religious percecution and dishonoring of the Temple. It was not a political thing. (Bar Kokba was but it wasn't zionist)
 
I'm very curious how Romans were anti zionist.

Before it was invented.

The Jewish revolt was prompted by religious percecution and dishonoring of the Temple. It was not a political thing. (Bar Kokba was but it wasn't zionist)
To the Romans, what they were asking for from the Jews in the Temple wasn't something they weren't asking for from everybody else. The ceremonies they wanted were something they considered akin to what Americans in the 50s thought about the pledge of allegiance. Who doesn't do the pledge of allegiance? Subversives, seperatists, troublemakers and rebels. The Romans weren't into exceptions - they weren't going to be like, 'oh, you're different, you're Jehovah's Witnesses' that American authorities by the 50s came to understand. As my prof said, 'these were not cuddly folk'.

I'm not going all into semantic rabbit hole mode with you, anti-Zionist (before there was such a thing), in this context meant the Romans were against the Jewish exercise of political power as a national community, whereas anti-semitic meant not liking the existence of Jewish people or Jewish religious beliefs or customs. You know what I mean, or you should.

And I never said the guy was correct, or entirely fitting, nor that Roman policy was.
 
To the Romans, what they were asking for from the Jews in the Temple wasn't something they weren't asking for from everybody else. The ceremonies they wanted were something they considered akin to what Americans in the 50s thought about the pledge of allegiance. Who doesn't do the pledge of allegiance? Subversives, seperatists, troublemakers and rebels. The Romans weren't into exceptions - they weren't going to be like, 'oh, you're different, you're Jehovah's Witnesses' that American authorities by the 50s came to understand. As my prof said, 'these were not cuddly folk'.
We had an exemption from Augustes Ceasar. They were revoking that exemption.
I'm not going all into semantic rabbit hole mode with you, anti-Zionist (before there was such a thing), in this context meant the Romans were against the Jewish exercise of political power as a national community, whereas anti-semitic meant not liking the existence of Jewish people or Jewish religious beliefs or customs. You know what I mean, or you should.
You mean like when they banned circumcision? Or Rabbinic Ordination? Or ran around slaughtering the sages? Those were all anti political measures. Afterall the Maccabees rebelled because of no political authority and not because of the banning of circumcision and shabbos.
And I never said the guy was correct, or entirely fitting, nor that Roman policy was.
Didn't say you did
 
So, I've been thinking about this thing I did in a Shared Worlds project I'm doing, which is making me wonder: How would Rome be able to integrate Judaea into its Imperial system without causing three Jewish revolts and ending up enslaving large portions of Judaea, and how would this have affected Rome and the Jews alike?

Like, client states existed, but is it possible for Judaea to remain so long-term, or to return to being a client state in the chaos of, say, the Year of the Four Emperors (possibly headed by a Sanhedrin based in Jerusalem)?
One scenario that would at least postpone the revolts a little bit is to have Herod Agrippa live longer. He was only in his mid-50s when he died, possibly from poison, and popular both with Claudius and the Jewish Sages. If he lived as long as his grandfather, Judea would remain an independent client kingdom for another 15 years. His son Agrippa II would be in his 30s in this TL, and not a teenager like OTL, and might be entrusted by Nero or whatever emperor replaces him to become King of Judea and not just the Galilee, further pushing back the date of direct Roman control until the end of the 1st century CE.

The real problem with keeping Judea semi-independent for an extended duration is the shift in the method Rome used to control its subject people. Luttwak claims that the existence of client kingdoms was a deliberate difference between the Julio-Claudians and later dynasties, where the Julio-Claudians preferred to minimize the use of force and to use client kingdoms as a buffer to absorb damage from foreign invaders and the Flavians and Antonians annexed the client kingdoms and created a system of limes to centralize defense, discourage incursions and go on the offensive.

Wheeler postulates that by consolidating eastern client kingdoms, the Flavians were reacting to the Neronian era deal with the Parthians that put an Arsacid prince on the throne of Armenia. With the Roman East no longer sheltered by a friendly client kingdom, Parthia now directly threatened Asia minor and Syria, bringing back memories of the Parthian incursion on 40 BCE and the ghastly Roman defeat at Carrhae. Vespasian even created a super-province that comprised of 3/4 of Asia Minor, a most unusual occurrence for the time.

So, if we believe these hypothesizes, then perhaps continuing the Julio-Claudian line, say by have Brittanicus succeed Claudius in the place of Nero, and a more successful Roman outcome of the war of Parthian succession could preempt the need to annex all the eastern client kingdoms, keeping Judea ruled by Herodians until some alt-Third Century Crisis.

And I think that this is a sustainable outcome. I like finding analogues in history to bolster my ideas, and in OTL there was an almost exact counterpart to the Jews just a few dozen miles north, the Samaritans. And the Samaritans managed to live reasonably peaceably in Judea under Roman domination for a couple more centuries. There is even some numismatic evidence that they were allowed to rebuild their temple. It is plausible to me that Herodian client kings or a more tolerant Roman administration would be able to keep Judea from exploding into the turmoil that was the Great Revolt and the resulting catastrophes.

And how would this affect Judaea? How would this affect the already extant Jewish diaspora of the region?
For starters, Judea and the Galilee would remain majority Jewish. And Jerusalem would be a focal point in Jewish life. For the Sholosh Regalim, the pilgrimage festivals, Jews would continue to travel to Jerusalem from all over the Roman and Persian worlds. The half-shekel Temple tax would continue to be paid to the Temple in Jerusalem, and there would be no Fiscus Judaicus levied as a penalty on all Jews and used to rebuild the Capitoline Temple to Jupiter in Rome. The Sanhedrin would still be sitting in the Chamber of Unhewn Stones.

I'd guess there would be diversity in Jewish thought. Sadducees and Boethusians would continue to exist, as the priestly elite still service the Temple. So would Essenes, and I have to imagine that there would still be Zealots unpleased with the arrangement, but with less popular support in a world with a sympathetic Jewish client king ruling Jerusalem and less of the countless Roman affronts to the Temple and Jewish beliefs. I think the Pharisees would remain the most popular movement, but Rabbinic Judaism as we know it would be very different. Traditionally, Yehuda HaNasi only wrote down the Mishnah because he feared the traditions would be lost (see the introduction to the Rambam's Mishneh Torah), but in this world that's not as much of a concern. I think eventually the Oral Torah would be written down, but it would vary significantly from what we have.

In OTL the Jewish diaspora in the East was almost completely annihilated during the Diaspora revolt. In this world, Alexandria would remain 1/3 Jewish, the breakaway Temple at Leonontopolis would still be around, Jewish communities in Syria and Cyrprus and Cyrenia would still compose large portions of the population.

And how would this affect the Roman Empire as a whole? For that matter, how would a surviving Second Temple affect early Christianity?

For starters, no Colosseum. But I think this Julio-Claudian Roman empire with its pre-Flavian policy permitting the continual existence of client states would have some fundamental differences from ours. I could see over time the reinforcement of the idea that only a descendant of Augustus can become Emperor, buoyed perhaps by more examples of the progeny of hereditary client monarchs being fostered in Rome. This could lead to a situation where succession is more typical and familial, changing the entire dynamics of the later
of military Emperors.

And I frankly know very little about Christianity, so I'll pass on this part.

I don't know if Roman rule and the Jewish belief systems as they existed, pre-revolts and their crushing, were compatible.

One classmate of mine in a college 'History of Rome' class said 'Rome wasn't anti-semitic, it was anti-Zionist' ...because it was anti every subject people's political nationalism. Maybe there was something to what he was saying. Whatever rituals Rome wanted from subjects, it also didn't care about people's souls and beliefs, their orthodoxy, they wanted expressions of civic orthopraxy.
anti-semitic meant not liking the existence of Jewish people or Jewish religious beliefs or customs.

There was definitely at least some anti-Judaism sentiment attested in Roman sources. Tiberius expelled the Jews from Rome "abolished foreign cults, especially the Egyptian and the Jewish rites, compelling all who were addicted to such superstitions to burn their religious vestments and all their paraphernalia" (Suetonius). Just 20 years later, Claudius also expelled the Jews from Rome. Seneca the Younger, Nero's chief advisor, had a rather dismal view of certain innocuous Jewish traditions, "But let us forbid lamps to be lighted on the Sabbath, since the gods do not need light, neither do men take pleasure in soot." and of Jewish practices entirely "Meanwhile the customs of this accursed race have gained such influence that they are now received throughout all the world. The vanquished have given laws to their victors". And all these sources are from before the revolts.

But there was also some philo-Judaic sentiment as well, as the large population of Romano-Hellenestic God-fearers can attest.

Now after all this talk about Judea and Rome I'm tempted to have a go with restarting my long moribund timeline on the subject.
 
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I don't know if Roman rule and the Jewish belief systems as they existed, pre-revolts and their crushing, were compatible.

One classmate of mine in a college 'History of Rome' class said 'Rome wasn't anti-semitic, it was anti-Zionist' ...because it was anti every subject people's political nationalism. Maybe there was something to what he was saying. Whatever rituals Rome wanted from subjects, it also didn't care about people's souls and beliefs, their orthodoxy, they wanted expressions of civic orthopraxy.

oy vey....
 
But I think this Julio-Claudian Roman empire with its pre-Flavian policy permitting the continual existence of client states would have some fundamental differences from ours. I could see over time the reinforcement of the idea that only a descendant of Augustus can become Emperor, buoyed perhaps by more examples of the progeny of hereditary client monarchs being fostered in Rome.

Not entirely sure I buy this - the Julio-Claudians had proven pretty adept at whittling themselves away with assorted murders, executions and inexplicable illnesses; so I think for this to be some sort of long-term scenario you'd have to have a lot more surviving relatives...which in turn means that the rules for the succession have to be a bit clearer and its widely understood to be a dynastic affair. As it was, the current set up was the worst of all worlds - a vague understanding that some member of the family should probably inherit, mixed with no firm procedures -so conceivably every male, and every male in law, had some sort of claim - and thus was a threat.

I can't see the Romans looking at foreign monarchs and thinking 'we should do that here', to be honest; especially at this stage of the Empire (when there's still a fig leaf that the Emperor is merely primus inter pares).
And I frankly know very little about Christianity, so I'll pass on this part.
My understanding was that the revolts were pretty critical for Christianity to take off, or at least to become a completely different animal from Judaism. It utterly discredited (in the eyes of a lot of Jews, at any rate) the traditional elite, and drove them away from the mainstream. It also accelerated the split; in that Christians saw in it proof that God's 'chosen people' were not just just the Jews but instead Christians.
 
Not entirely sure I buy this - the Julio-Claudians had proven pretty adept at whittling themselves away with assorted murders, executions and inexplicable illnesses; so I think for this to be some sort of long-term scenario you'd have to have a lot more surviving relatives...which in turn means that the rules for the succession have to be a bit clearer and its widely understood to be a dynastic affair. As it was, the current set up was the worst of all worlds - a vague understanding that some member of the family should probably inherit, mixed with no firm procedures -so conceivably every male, and every male in law, had some sort of claim - and thus was a threat.

I can't see the Romans looking at foreign monarchs and thinking 'we should do that here', to be honest; especially at this stage of the Empire (when there's still a fig leaf that the Emperor is merely primus inter pares).

My understanding was that the revolts were pretty critical for Christianity to take off, or at least to become a completely different animal from Judaism. It utterly discredited (in the eyes of a lot of Jews, at any rate) the traditional elite, and drove them away from the mainstream. It also accelerated the split; in that Christians saw in it proof that God's 'chosen people' were not just just the Jews but instead Christians.
Yeah I'd agree. I was kind of grasping at straws to come up with a big fundamental difference in Roman government resulting from this POD. I've been reading an excellent academic book called "The Jews and their Roman Rivals", and the simple truth of the matter is that the Roman-Jewish relationship was decidedly unidirectional in favor of the Romans, as most colonizer-subject people relationships tend to be. During the first few centuries of the Roman Empire, Judaism and her offshoots were not a major factor in Roman culture or government except in Judea.
 
Maybe have the Year of the Four Emperors begin before the First Roman-Jewish War. Instead of invading Judea and putting down a revolt to prove his bona fides, Vespasian offers the Jews autonomy in exchange for military support. Vespasian then marches west with Jewish auxiliaries at his side and makes whoever leads them King of Judea afterwards.
 
Maybe have the Year of the Four Emperors begin before the First Roman-Jewish War. Instead of invading Judea and putting down a revolt to prove his bona fides, Vespasian offers the Jews autonomy in exchange for military support. Vespasian then marches west with Jewish auxiliaries at his side and makes whoever leads them King of Judea afterwards.
Would the zealouts spring for that? The Romans were already mad at us. Afterall Nero went and became a Jew, and we were alleged in rebellion. Rome doesn't offer rebbellious people autonomy. They crush them.
 
Would the zealouts spring for that? The Romans were already mad at us. Afterall Nero went and became a Jew, and we were alleged in rebellion. Rome doesn't offer rebbellious people autonomy. They crush them.
The Romans weren't a hive mind. We're talking about Vespasian in particular, who even Jewish sources paint as honorable (despite him, you know, destroying the fucking Temple). I'm imagining that when the Year of the Four Emperors war breaks out, Judea is a restive but not yet openly rebellious province. Vespasian's offer would be averting a rebellion, not stopping one already in progress.
 
The Romans weren't a hive mind. We're talking about Vespasian in particular, who even Jewish sources paint as honorable (despite him, you know, destroying the fucking Temple). I'm imagining that when the Year of the Four Emperors war breaks out, Judea is a restive but not yet openly rebellious province. Vespasian's offer would be averting a rebellion, not stopping one already in progress.
We were already considered in rebellion because the Senate told Nero to go crush us. I doubt the Senate would be happy if Vespasian showed up having not crushed us. (Assuming that the zealouts wouldn't be idiots and take the deal iotl they literally burned our supplies) Vespasian wants to prove his legitimacy to the senate. And a great way to do that is to crush us and thus show that he can maintain the empire and do what the senate orders.
 
My understanding was that the revolts were pretty critical for Christianity to take off, or at least to become a completely different animal from Judaism. It utterly discredited (in the eyes of a lot of Jews, at any rate) the traditional elite, and drove them away from the mainstream. It also accelerated the split; in that Christians saw in it proof that God's 'chosen people' were not just just the Jews but instead Christians.
The early expansion of Christianity throughout the Eastern Roman and Western Parthian Empires, as well as the beginnings of acceptance of Gentile believers and their place in the Christian community predates the Jewish Revolts. Gentile Christians were a growing proportion of Christian converts even in the 40’s and 50’s and “Hellenistic” Jews were a major part of the movement from the very beginning, many of which were not based in Judea.
 
We were already considered in rebellion because the Senate told Nero to go crush us. I doubt the Senate would be happy if Vespasian showed up having not crushed us. (Assuming that the zealouts wouldn't be idiots and take the deal iotl they literally burned our supplies) Vespasian wants to prove his legitimacy to the senate. And a great way to do that is to crush us and thus show that he can maintain the empire and do what the senate orders.
OK - what if the Senate hadn't given that order? What if Nero kicks the bucket a couple of years early?
 
OK - what if the Senate hadn't given that order? What if Nero kicks the bucket a couple of years early?
Nero converted because he was told to go crush us, and decided he would rather convert. So he would still be Emperor if the order hadn't been given. Or if we assume that the order isn't given, Nero converts anyway, its possible that Vespasian decides to pacify the pharisees? Perhaps, he decides to sideline the saduccees and strikes a deal with the Sanhedrin. We were open to negotiations it was the zealouts that put a stop to that. Then its possible assuming those things, he could have gotten a legion out of us. And Judea would then represent a seat of his power instead of a place of weakness.

Actually lets say that happens. What if the Praetorian guard is disposed of and replaced by Jews. As Vespasian sees us as loyal and the Praetorians as disloyal.
 
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