Different Lorraine Offensive

  • Thread starter Deleted member 1487
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trekchu

trekchu

So will there be a Miracle on the Marne or are the French too different from OTL in their positions, strength, etc, for that to happen?
 

Tom_B

wiking said:
The collapse is happening just as the Marne is kicking off on the 5th. Sarrail, thinking he can salvage the situation, doesn't inform Joffre immediately of his predicamate. As a result, the offensive kicks off on time, but the 6th army is short 2 corps. A couple of reserve divisions are on the way to the 3rd army, so they can help shore up the line. Once committed, Joffre can't call it off, namely for moral, as once his soldiers think the retreat is over, telling them otherwise is not a good idea.
Also, I imagine he is hoping that an offensive success elsewhere in the line can offset the disaster near the Argonne. Joffre seems like an "offensive is the best defense" kind of guy, so even if he knew of Sarrail's problem, me thinks he would still order the fight anyway.

De Castelnau really doesn't have a choice about his defensive stance, when threatened on both sides and with limited forces, he doesn't really have the chance for the Napoleonic "defeat in detail". It looks like the 1st army is going to have to give up some more troops.
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I am confused by the "short 2 corps" re Sixth Army. Here is a good supplemental source about the Marne http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Battle_Of_The_Marne Note the Sept 5 ORBAT for Sixth Army. I see why IV Corps is absent in your TL but VII Corps and I Cavalry Corps should be available. Also note the discussion in the article. Joffre initially wants to use Sixth Army south of the Marne but Gallieni persuades him over the telephone to mount the flank attack north of the Marne. Now if Sixth Army is seriously weaker than OTL than I don't see Gallieni (relatively sober for a French general) making the argument.
 

Deleted member 1487

The 56th and 55th reserve divisions from the Army of the Lorraine were returned to 3rd army on Sept. 4th and haven't arrived yet. I need to rethink how the Marne is going to play out. I am rereading Tyng, and haven't yet cracked the Guns of August.
 

Deleted member 1487

Tom_B said:
I am confused by the "short 2 corps" re Sixth Army. Here is a good supplemental source about the Marne http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Battle_Of_The_Marne Note the Sept 5 ORBAT for Sixth Army. I see why IV Corps is absent in your TL but VII Corps and I Cavalry Corps should be available. Also note the discussion in the article. Joffre initially wants to use Sixth Army south of the Marne but Gallieni persuades him over the telephone to mount the flank attack north of the Marne. Now if Sixth Army is seriously weaker than OTL than I don't see Gallieni (relatively sober for a French general) making the argument.
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Why not? The 6th army, even if weaker was not expected to run into the Germans. They were to be engaged frontally by the British and 5th army while the 6th maneuvered around the flank. Even with the deficit versus OTL, they still outnumber the Germans by a comfortable margin.
 
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