Different Lorraine Offensive

[Tom_B]

Alternate commanders

Hmm putting one of the corps commanders is a distinct possibility and Strantz is the most likely candidate. Another alternative might be Field Marshal von der Goltz but he is rather old.

My largest objection on a first reading is that Joffre is coming across as somewhat en retard but in OTL he ordered Sarrail to abandon Verdun (at the beginning of Revigny IIRC) and was dissauded by Sarrail who seems to sublimely confident not panicky.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Hmm putting one of the corps commanders is a distinct possibility and Strantz is the most likely candidate. Another alternative might be Field Marshal von der Goltz but he is rather old.

My largest objection on a first reading is that Joffre is coming across as somewhat en retard but in OTL he ordered Sarrail to abandon Verdun (at the beginning of Revigny IIRC) and was dissauded by Sarrail who seems to sublimely confident not panicky.

Joffre never struck me as particularly intelligent, rather he took advantage of a good situation at the Marne, as the Germans seemed to be throwing every opportunity at him. His behavior afterwards of blaming the massive casualites suffered and letting the Germans get away after the Marne on just about everyone else really does not give a favorable impression of the man. He could play parliament, but he was not a great commander. Foch or Petain on the other hand...

Sarrail OTL was only being pressed from the front and had only to fall back and string the Germans out. While his situation was far from good, I have the impression that he knew what he was doing, and historically, while not the most successful commander the French had, he was competent and pulled off a victory on his front while not being a dunce. Here he is being struck in the rear, with the very real possibility of being cut off or having Verdun isolated. He realizes the danger he is in, and the German 5th army is advancing faster than historically, causing both the French 3rd and 4th army to retreat quicker. Joffre seems to be selling him out, as the 15th corps from the 2nd army is taking a while to arrive because it is being transported through Bar-le-Duc instead of being immediately thrown into Commercy, which would be a straight line to Sarrail. Instead Joffre is deciding to be fancy and strike in the rear of the Germans, as they are oriented northward and have not rearguard.

The Germans are in a weak position right now, and are going to realize just how overextended and soon to be outnumbered they are. Their two corps near Verdun are now facing 5 french divisions and they are running low on ammo, taking casualities and are really getting away from their rail head (21st corps at least). When the French 15 corps appears in their rear, they will be really screwed (no I was not going for a pun-especially one that bad).

Commercy is one bright spot, as the French cannot afford to commit the necessary forces to crack that nut. The Germans have the best ground and have prepared. They are able to commit roughly equal forces to the French, so its going to be a grinder, much like the St. Mihiel salient was in 1915 for the French OTL.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Day 5 September 2nd

Day 5
The day started out much as the last, with both sides probing one another, launching salvos of shells into the other’s positions. But a tide had turned, near Verdun at least. On the morning of September 2nd, the Germans were for the first time outnumbered and outgunned. The French were determined to reopen the supply route into Verdun and had a massive stockpile of shells at their disposal. The Germans had pulled away from their supply lines, and with the fighting at Commercy, they had to make due with less as munitions were being run through there.

The 21st corps was opposed by a new infantry division taken from the line further north. Combined with the 8th infantry division already positioned near Blercourt, they had the strength to halt the advance. Though still deficient in heavy guns compared to the Germans, they still possessed full stocks of shells and a will to use them. The 5th corps was in a worse way, as they had two forts with heavier guns, two infantry divisions and a cavalry division festooned with artillery taken from the Verdun forts.
Early in the morning, both positions opened up on their German opponents with a fury. After an hour dust and smoke enveloped their positions, which aided the French infantry moving forward. Despite attempts to reply, the French managed to cross the valley containing Landrecourt village and mount the slopes of the German held hill. However, the penetration was relatively shallow, corresponding with the depth of artillery observation. The 5th corps had set up positions further back in the tree line, allowing them to stop the French once they left the fury of the fire their guns delivered.

The attack further west had proven less successful, as the 75’s which provided the fire support of the two French divisions were not able to dig the Germans out of their fox holes. They still managed to cross the valley below and penetrate the first line of defenses, but concentrated machinegun fire managed to stop the attackers. Despite causing heavy losses to the attacking infantry, supply had lagged seriously, causing the guns of the 21st corps to fire only a handful of shells each during the attack. This caused a crisis of sorts for the German commander, realizing that as the French brought up artillery observers, they would continue to shell him, while his own artillery would not be able to reply. However, cutting the supply line to Verdun was only a secondary objective; his first mission was to aid the 5th army in their attack by drawing off enemy forces, which, even if he retreated, he still was doing. Fortified with this knowledge, he ordered a phase pull back, especially now as the 5th corps was coming under such intense pressure.

Fighting near the Meuse, the 5th corps was locked in an intense struggle, as the French artillery was able to be walked forward by the afternoon. The attackers were not relenting, launching bloody attacks that quickly dissolved into brutal hand-to-hand combat in the shattered forests atop the heights. Though closer to supply and still launching furious salvos at their enemy, the men of von Strantz’s corps were being pushed back under the weight of shell that was massed against them. The only thing stopping the assaults was the fall of darkness and the loss of visibility. Further west with the 21st corps was pulling back as well, but their withdrawal was phased and organized. Pulling back farther than tactically necessary, the Germans were aiming to secure their supply and draw the French further from theirs. As it was, some French battalion commanders mistook what was happening and pulled ahead in their zeal to drive back the Germans. These units suffered heavily, as they ran into organized resistance and vicious, limited counter attacks. After several such incidents, the French kept a wary distance. The line of resistance was to be established near Osches, where supply would be less strained, a clear line of retreat could be established if necessary, and the 5th corps somewhat supported. The Osches line was taken up overnight, allowing the Germans room to prepare for the next day.

As they fought, the 5th army pressed even harder further north. Scenting blood, the Crown Prince demanded that his forces link up with the anvil of Falkenhayn’s forces. They pressed into the Bois de Cheppy, Verdun and Avocourt in sight. The 6th army was still battering themselves against the gate in Alsace, but still the French 2nd held.

At Commercy the situation was similar to the previous day. The heights surrounding the area had turned into the site of a bitter struggle that seemed not to advance. The arrival of the 4th ersatz division (sans one regiment) slowed the already torpid advance to a near stand still. The defenders now outnumbered the attackers. Fighting was concentrated to the south, west and east of the city, as the three reserve divisions from the French 2nd army pressed into the hills. The trenches and foxholes of the Germans held firm and only fell after exacting a hefty price in blood from the attackers. Their heavy casualties dampened their élan, causing them to hold back while their artillery blasted a path the more often than not was still contested. Little terrain changed hands that day, but the butcher’s bill rose inexorably. De Castelnau demanded results, but with no other forces to commit, he was forced to wait while his troops bled.
The one bright spot for the French was the nearing of the 15th corps to Bar-le-Duc on their way to the 3rd army. Taken out of the line two days earlier, they were due to enter into the fray to the north soon. Hopefully they could staunch the advance of the Germans, but right now all bets were off. Joffre lamented that his 6th army was being deprived of necessary forces by the side show near Verdun, but acknowledged that it was a greater threat than the Germans near Paris at the moment.


Historic advance of the 5th army, advance by about a day ITTL:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/XIII._A.K._Maas_1914.jpg

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Day 6, September 3rd

Day 6
15th corps began moving through Bar-le-Duc on September 3rd, nearing the battlefield. Their assembly point was set as Les Trois-Domaines and the first elements began to arrive that morning. While assembling aerial recon elements of the 21st corps observed them, which relayed that information to the corps commander. The current position was unsustainable given that enemy forces would be arriving in their rear. A further withdrawal would be necessary to preserve their position across the Meuse. At the moment the French engaged them frontally and a withdrawal across the valley would need to happen in phases.

The 5th corps was still locked in a bitterly contested struggle for their heights to the east of Lemmes. The forest was limiting the advance of the French, allowing for positions further in the depths of the woods the check the assault. German artillery was giving a better account of itself now that the French were not able to directly observe their front line from the opposite hill and direct their heavy batteries on the German soldiers. The French 7th cav. had tried a flank maneuver by advancing along the Meuse, only to meet with artillery fire from the 19th ersatz division left on the east bank to contain the Verdun garrison. A regiment from the 5th held in reserve to meet breakthroughs finally drove them off, when they decided to force their way through the barrage.

Back in Metz Falkenhayn was made away of the latest arrival of French troops, causing him to dispatch the 8th ersatz division to St. Mihiel, in case their commander decided to head to Commercy instead of north to the battle raging near Verdun. For the moment their intentions were inscrutable. They continued to assemble throughout the day, appearing ready to march by the evening.

To their north, the 21st corps had started to pull the slowest forces out first, namely the heavy guns and wounded. By early evening, despite combat to their front, the corps had evacuated half of its strength across the valley of Souilly across to the heights overlooking the Meuse. Conducting a fighting retreat, the remaining infantry pulled out under cover of darkness across the valley. Ironically, as they were passing through Souilly, the 15th corps was arriving along the same road headed north. Neither side was aware of the other that night, as the French took up residence in the village. The French divisions occupied Osches at roughly the same time, unaware of the arrival of their reinforcements below.

Throughout the day, fighting continued at Commercy, where the 33rd r. division’s heavy artillery batteries, double the number of regular divisions’ because they were a fortress garrison, where battering the attacking French forces. The fighting had become a series of siege battles, as both sides were operating from trenches, lobbing shells at one another before assaulting enemy positions. So far the defenders had retained all of their original strong points, despite enemy incursions. None of the French had managed to penetrate northwards, despite a larger flanking maneuver by the 2nd cav. division earlier that day. The German 7th and cav. division was in reserve, and with the arrival of the 4th ersatz division from St. Mihiel, they were free to counter the looping advance near Cousance. When the 8th ersatz division arrived from Metz they were sent north to St. Mihiel only to be told once there to proceed to Troyon to act as a reserve in the fighting there. The French did not seem to realize that there existed a large gap from Troyon to Commercy, but they did not have any force to exploit it.

Additionally, Sarrail had become increasingly agitated as the 5th army approached closer to their anvil on the Meuse. Despite the pressure being alleviated and a new force appearing to bolster his army, the advance of the Crown Prince into Neuvilley and the clearing of the Foret de Hesse burdened him even more. There existed only a 35-mile gap between the German forces on either side of his army. If he held onto Verdun, his army could become trapped and smashed. Joffre had been urging him to abandon the fort, as the Germans did not have neither the forces, guns, nor time to reduce it. All they could do is isolate it with its garrison. GQG was more concerned that he maintain contact with the 4th army and prevent a gap in the lines from forming. Joffre was more concerned with the Germans throwing the 3rd army into isolation in the fortified city, while their armies struck the rear of the 2nd army causing a disaster. He was right, as that was exactly what OHL was planning.

Overnight Sarrail was able to use the two divisions, the 18th and 7th, freed up by the arrival of the 15th corps, to bolster his lines to the north, which would stiffen resistance considerably. Still the forces locked up in the battle with the German 5th corps were needed elsewhere and their lack of progress indicated that the Germans were not going to be ejected from the west bank of the Meuse. These units could only be counted on to occupy the Germans while the rest of the army fought the Crown Prince. To pull away from Verdun would rob him of one of his best tools, but to remain in position, swinging his forces away from the 4th army was only going to entrap him. Dejected, Sarrail issued orders to withdraw his right from Verdun to bring it south in line with his left. He would have to retreat and form a line with the 2nd army. Staring the next morning, the units of his army, including the 4th corps and 7th cav. would begin to pull out of line near Verdun and retreat southwest toward Bar-le-Duc, fighting the whole way. Sarrail would remark that night before heading to bed that the war had just been lost.

 

[trekchu]

French morale just lost one of it's best future focal points. Not to speak of the strong point. The troops that were wasted in the Meat Grinder of Verdun can be used by the Germans elsewhere. Fewer losses, or at least them spaced out more also means that the manpower in Germany eclipses later.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Just wait, the Marne hasn't even happened yet. Revigny is not going to happen and the 5th army is about to gain some troops

 

[trekchu]

At least with Verdun almost in German hands, Petain will find it more difficult to rise to prominence. Good work on that.

 

[Tom_B]

At least with Verdun almost in German hands, Petain will find it more difficult to rise to prominence. Good work on that.

Maybe he will rise to prominence at Toul.

 

[Tom_B]

This all very interesting. I have a slightly higher opinion of Joffre and a somewhat lower opinion of Sarrail based on his problems with von Mudra in the Argonne and later the Bulgarians.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I find myself constantly updating my opinion of Joffre, but much depends on my mood. Joffre was not an idiot, but not particularly adept. I actually rank Haig slightly above him. Sarrail, well, I have read more about him recently, and I am not impressed. I know I said he was competent before, but I am revising that impression. He nearly came to disaster at Revigny due to his policy of holding contact with Verdun and was only saved by the German pull back at the Marne. Had the order not been given, he would have had his line broken through and been crushed. He had political contacts, which was the main reason for his survival as a commander, not his skill. I'm having him be concerned about what is going on along his rear, something that Sarrail never had to deal with OTL. Any relatively competent individual would realize the danger, so I am going to have him be semi-competent.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Day 7 September 4th

This was to be the most dramatic day so far, as now the Crown Prince's army had reached Brabant with his 16th corps, only to be met by two French divisions marched north from Osches. This allowed Sarrail to rally his center for the moment, but on his right the morning was spent attempting to extract the 72nd r., 7th cav. and 7th infantry division from their battle with the German 5th corps. But von Strantz was aware of the proximity of the Prince's army, as he could here their guns by now and launched his counter attack, hoping to pin them while the 5th army cut them off. This forced several units of the infantry to remain, while the 7th cav. rode off. They were inserted into the battle pushing south from Brabant, but given their casualties in the pervious days, were not able to influence the fight positively. The 72nd r. division, being the garrison of Verdun, was not worried about being trapped, as it was their mission, but the 7th infantry was trying to link up with their sister division from their corps. The garrison division ultimately recommited itself to allow their parnter to escape. The price was stiff, as by the time they withdrew, over half of the division had become casualties.

Further north the several independent units assigned to Verdun after the advance of the 3rd army into the Ardennes had fallen apart were locked in screening positions as the Germans moved through the area. But they took a wide path around the forts guarding the city, leaving the 5 r. corps to screen the French. South, near Souilly, where the French 15th corps took up position overnight while trying to cut off the German 21st corps, there were intermittent artillery duels, as the French pulled out of the city and headed north to Osches. Being in the valley had massive disadvantages, which were discovered, as the Germans proceeded to use there height advantage to pound the village in the morning. Being at a lower level, the field artillery did not elevate high enough to reach the German positions, which left withdrawal as the only option.

However, the entire front was falling apart as three reserve divisions were forced to squeeze through the valley heading south toward Lemmes as the 7th division was trying to make its escape. The Germans were hard on their heels, and there was little time to find a safer path. Instead, a traffic jam was occurring, as too many men were trying to move south at the same time that the last units were fighting a rearguard against the enemy, all this while the Germans occupied the heights overlooking the retreat. Though supply was still not adequate, the valley below the 5th and 21st corps was what later armies would call a "target rich enviornment". Though the damage caused was not really all that it could have been, it was still catastrophic, causing a stampede. Shelling as quickly as the ammo could be passed, every unit poured fire down into the valley. It would later be called the masscare of innocents, as the myth arose after the war that the reserve divisions were primarily of young men, eager to defend their county. Thousands were killed and abandoned equipment lined the roads and fields below, but the majority managed to flee with their lives. The Germans were not able to pursue, but by nightfall they had mastery of the field when the advancing corps of the 5th army finally linked with the exhausted men of the Falkenhayn detachment. Their ammunition was gone, the enemy had fled, and the Verdun fortress still held, with its garrison withdrawn inside the protective ring.

The 5th army had regained its 5th corps and gained the 21st corps, both of which were relinquished by Falkenhayn to the Prince. The 8th ersatz division was brough north to help quarantine Verdun, which left the Bavarian, 19th, 8th ersatz divisions and independent ersatz brigade guarding the forts from the south and east, while the 5th r. corps and 1 division from the 25th r. corps held the fort in the north and west. The fortress held little more than one division in garrison after casualities to the various units having fought in the battles around it.

The French 3rd army was in shambles after the fiasco in withdrawing its forces from the region, something that Joffre blames Sarrail for. Though he could not afford to remove him from command just yet, the order was written and waiting for an opportune moement. From the forces evacuated, Sarrail commanded 2 reserve divisions with half their artillery, the 4th corps at half strength and artillery, the 15th corps, the 5th corps, the 7th cav., which was little more than a brigade, and the 6th corps. Joffre was forced to transfer the 56th and 55th reserve divisions from the 6th army back to the 3rd army, just to give it some strength to resist the more powerful German 5th army. The 6th army was now 4 divisions short of what he had originally planned.

The Battle at Commercy still raged, but with no advance other than the Germans managing to gain ground on the attackers. The 2nd cav. had been caught the previous day trying to flank the defenders, but had lost badly after being meet and ambushed by the German 7th cav. Its retreat had threatened the rear of one of the infantry divisions, as the German cavalry followed, but the French rallied with the help of 75s from the infantry division. De Castelnau called of the attack after the 3 army collapsed up north, as there was no reason to go after the Germans at Commcercy. Instead, these forces were formed into a holding detachment to block a move against his rear from Commercy or the German 5th army. Increasingly worried now that the German 6th army was at his front and the German 5th was approaching his rear, he began broaching the subject of retreat with Joffre, who categorically denied it...for now.

 

[trekchu]

So the French are looking at possibly loosing several crack Divisions. And a ( stupid ) Question, how far is the front from the Marne now, and if it could be crossed in Force, wouldn't the Germans be able to, if not take, at least threaten Paris from the South?

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Several crack division, not exactly. They really only lost the reserve divisions, which were not particularly good.
http://www.firstworldwar.com/maps/graphics/maps_11_marne1914_5_(1600).jpg
This shows the front on the evening of the 5th, which is still a day into the future. The front by Verdun is obviously different, with Sarrail's right wing reassembling parallel to St. Mihiel, but further west. There was not really an orderly pull back, but the Germans could not follow fleeing men that quickly. Remember too that the Germans are now out of ammo for the most part in the 5th and 21st corps, which will take at least a day to rectify. I am toying with the idea of having the Germans bring the capture French artillery and ammo with for now, but they won't have the extra gunners or draught horses to haul it. I guess it goes by rail back to Metz.

Notice the position of Commercy, and think about the devilish things I can do now that the French had pulled back near Toul....

 

[trekchu]

My military genius is very limited, but are we looking at a possible breakthrough?

 

[trekchu]

I might be seeing gaps where there aren't any....

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Day 8-9

Retcon: the division taken from up north was one of the reserve divisions from the reserve group. This means that only 2 reserve divisions were thrust into the valley. This means that the 7th division is smashed up badly too, leaving only 1 reserve division, plus a two regiments, one from the 7th and the other from the reserve division. This reserve division only has slightly less artillery than what a single division is supposed to.
Day 8
Given the fury of the previous day, the French 3rd army’s right wing has had to pull back to rally around the village Les Trois-Domaines. The 4th corps has lost one of their assigned divisions, but picked up the reserve division that had been fighting with the 8th division since September 1st, but they had no corps artillery, as it had been lost with the 7th division in the valley. They also picked up a brigade of cavalry, the survivors of the 7th cav. division. The survivors from the massacre of the innocents had started to reform further south overnight, but were still attempting to organize. For the moment, the 15th corps was holding the left flank of the 4th corps at the village of Beauzee-sur-Aire on the Aire river. Sarrail had made sure that his link with the 4th army was secure and the 5th corps held contact near Revigny. For the moment, he was holding the left fast while he drew back the right and tried to form a connection with the 2nd army. Unfortunately, de Castelnau was more concerned about being attacked at Toul and refused to extend his line, not trusting Sarrail to effectively support him.
This gap in the line left the forces at Commercy free for mischief, which indeed they were ready for. The 7th and 8th cavalry were loosed and with the guard ersatz division were to take Ligny, south of Bar-le-Duc to threaten the city, the objective of the Crown Prince. Further north, the Crown Prince had actually arrived at Souilly to witness the destruction wrought by his forces. He personally congratulated the 21st and 5th corps commanders as their forces headed back into the valley of the Meuse. Their new mission was to head south along the valley using rail and road to read St. Mihiel and launch an attack at Bar-le-Duc, in the process hopefully catching the French 4th corps in a pocket. The 16th corps, newly arrived in the valley of Souilly, would strike down the road and pin the French 4th corps while the two other corps repositioned and resupplied.
The attacks continued all along the front of the 3rd army by late morning, but the French were starting to stand their ground, especially up north. The renewed resistance was to give the recovering units a chance to get back in the line. But once again, by the afternoon the pullback began again. The 15th and 4th corps finally had taken up positions running from Lisle, to Rembercourt and Erize, continuing to Chaumont and ending in the hills. The reinforced reserve division had recovered and covered Rupt-devant-Saint-Mihiel with elements back in Villotte.
By evening the fighting had died down, with Sarrail frustrated that he could not get de Castelnau to do anything, while he had no extra forces to liberate Ligny. His supply was reduced severely, as the Ligny was a major rail line into Bar-le-Duc. His supply lines were being harassed by the marauding German cavalry, which forced him to remove several units from the front to protect his rail lines. Further north, the Germans had planned a surprise attack that night to break the line and entrap the enemy. Without artillery preparation, the 16th corps attacked the French 4th corps with bayonettes while the 21st corps advanced from St. Mihiel to Fresnes-au-Mont. The reserve units were still jittery from their ordeal the previous day and the appearance of Germans with fixed bayonnettes overrunning their positions cause many to flee or surrender. The line had been broken, causing the 4th corps, which had been resisting further north, to rout and attempt to escape the trap. Further south, the 5th corps had moved out too, striking out later from Vadonville down the road containing Grimaucort. They were making their way to Tronville north of Ligny, where they would link up with the 7th and 8th cavalry. The infantry would attack toward Bar-le-Duc in the morning while the cav. would maneuver to the west and take the city from the opposite side. The 5th army would be attacking from the front and north, hopefully entrapping the entire French 3rd army.
From the night of the 5th to the morning of the 6th a pursuit happened across the hills and plains from the Meuse to the canal-au-rhin. The French 15th and 4th corps were being swept toward Bar-le-Duc, as their flank collapsed, the reserve division supposed to be covering it having surrendered or been wiped out. Both sides were exhausted, having had little sleep in the previous week and marching hard the entire time. The limits of human endurance were surpassed as both realized what the outcome of the events they were part of meant for their respective nations. Pressed on all fronts, the French 3rd army was falling back to the canal, hoping to set up a line of resistance. Pausing briefly for counterattacks or a fighting rearguard, the French found themselves moving as if being washed by a tidal wave. By 0730 their backs were to the city of Bar-le-duc with a final line of resistance fighting near Naives and Géry. But the front was soon shattered, as they realized that the Germans had marched another corps into their rear, pushing up the canal through Longeville to the city. In full-scale retreat, the 15th and 6th corps made their way across the canal, while the 4th corps was sacrificed stopping the German 5th corps long enough so that they could cross. Hit by both the 16th and 5th German corps, the French 4th corps was overwhelmed and surrendered by 0930. Their sacrifice had allowed their brothers in the 3rd army to re-establish a line on the canal and beat off the flanking attack by the German cavalry.
This disaster was the last straw, Joffre sacked Sarrail that afternoon when he learned what happened. He was launching his own trap on the Germans near Paris, but the danger further east threatened to undo everything that he had strove to build. A massive gap opened between the 2nd and 3rd armies, with the later unit having only 3 corps left, hardly enough to even be called an army. The Crown Prince proudly called OHL wanting to ship his collection of captured guns, men, and regimental banners to Moltke. OHL, though gravely concerned by the developments on the Marne, were overjoyed to hear about the massive success in Eastern France. Moltke’s plan to let the 1st army shield the rest of the advance seemed to be paying off despite the desperate situation along over the Marne. Consulting with Falkenhayn, he had the Crown Prince return the 21st corps, cavalry divisions and guard ersatz division to the Falkenhayn detachment, so that its commander could launch the next phase of the plan. They were to attack the French 2nd army in the rear to open up Lorraine to the 6th army.
The 3rd army was to enlarge the gap and breakthrough the French 3rd army, rolling up the front. It seemed that this war’s Sedan had just been fought.

 

[Tom_B]

Toul

De Castelnau was a vigorous commander (often too vigorous) and with a fort as strong as Toul (here is a source that may prove useful for Toul http://books.google.com/books?id=lr...hNnyBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1) as a secure staging area I would see him doing more to help Sarrail.

Sarrail was a favorite of the French Left. His dismissal this early in the war is going to have political consequences esp. as the war is not going as well tarnishing Joffre's reputation.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I was a bit concerned about that myself. The guy authored Plan 17 and the doctrine of offensive á outrance, but here he has really no extra forces than those being dashed against Commercy. They were really busted up by the fighting, and when they actually started losing ground, de Castelnau said enough. He needed some men left once the Germans broke through up north. As it was, their artillery doesn't do well in the steep hills of the area, and the 33rd reserve division had only heavy batteries, 8 to be exact. This coupled with the other howitzers of the ersatz divisions really smashed the French in a way that they could not respond. So instead of maintaining a losing attack, he erred on the side of caution (finally) and said enough was enough and is watching out for himself.

 

[Tom_B]

Blame Papa

I was a bit concerned about that myself. The guy authored Plan 17 and the doctrine of offensive á outrance, but here he has really no extra forces than those being dashed against Commercy. They were really busted up by the fighting, and when they actually started losing ground, de Castelnau said enough. He needed some men left once the Germans broke through up north. As it was, their artillery doesn't do well in the steep hills of the area, and the 33rd reserve division had only heavy batteries, 8 to be exact. This coupled with the other howitzers of the ersatz divisions really smashed the French in a way that they could not respond. So instead of maintaining a losing attack, he erred on the side of caution (finally) and said enough was enough and is watching out for himself.

Hmm my suggestion would be to have Joffre get very conservative at this point (note the Marne has not happened yet and to make things worse his right wing is crumbling. He must be worried that the Boche might actually be able to pull off Schliefffen's SuperCannae scheme) and order de Castelnau in no uncertain terms to cease his attacks. For all his aggressiveness deC seems to be a follow orders type.

OK that's the good news. The bad (but not necessarily disastrous) news is that a good case to be made that Moltke will last longer at OHL in TTL at least until the end of September. Actually there was something he wanted to do in the East I thought was preferable to the overreaching strategy pursued by the Dynamic Duo post Tannenberg.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

The collapse is happening just as the Marne is kicking off on the 5th. Sarrail, thinking he can salvage the situation, doesn't inform Joffre immediately of his predicamate. As a result, the offensive kicks off on time, but the 6th army is short 2 corps. A couple of reserve divisions are on the way to the 3rd army, so they can help shore up the line. Once committed, Joffre can't call it off, namely for moral, as once his soldiers think the retreat is over, telling them otherwise is not a good idea.
Also, I imagine he is hoping that an offensive success elsewhere in the line can offset the disaster near the Argonne. Joffre seems like an "offensive is the best defense" kind of guy, so even if he knew of Sarrail's problem, me thinks he would still order the fight anyway.

De Castelnau really doesn't have a choice about his defensive stance, when threatened on both sides and with limited forces, he doesn't really have the chance for the Napoleonic "defeat in detail". It looks like the 1st army is going to have to give up some more troops.