Cool Potential Domestications

[phx1138]

These are midsized cats no bigger than a medium-sized dog. Wolves are still a threat and bigger than anything you have.

I'm missing the connection. What I had in mind was the attitude to predators (or carnivores): a society that more readily accepts cats (predators, & pure carnivores) would seem to be more tolerant of wolves (predators, but more generalist). No?

I wonder if somehow domesticated dogs could be kept from spreading to the Americas. At least long enough for dogs which later arrive from Siberia to encounter societies who have no need for them.

IDK how you'd do it, but I agree, it would be beneficial, maybe even necessary, to selecting cats over dogs.

 

[Driftless]

Herders are going to be more worried about larger predators. Farmers are going to be more worried about rodents and birds that eat both growing and stored crops. Those points likely play a role in the when, what, and how of domestication

 

[Arkenfolm]

I'm missing the connection. What I had in mind was the attitude to predators (or carnivores): a society that more readily accepts cats (predators, & pure carnivores) would seem to be more tolerant of wolves (predators, but more generalist). No?

A domesticated lynx isn't likely to kill your sheep (perhaps you're feeding them on rabbits, diseased sheep, mice, etc.), but a wild wolf probably will. Wild lynx generally won't target livestock larger than chickens or young sheep/goats/etc. since their many prey is rabbits. Not different from why OTL farmers have killed lynx as (understandable) threats to their livestock (poultry) despite owning various dog breeds.

IDK how you'd do it, but I agree, it would be beneficial, maybe even necessary, to selecting cats over dogs.

There are at least a few grave burials of bobcats amongst the Mississippians, but bobcats seem too big and shy of humans to be a good domesticate. Although like the ocelot, they seem to be a nice size for a felid domesticate, since they can easily kill both smaller rodents and larger pests like rabbits. Assuming bobcats or ocelots could have a similar territorial nature like domestic cats (your typical housecat is suspicious of dogs and especially annoyed by new cats in the house), they could imagine domestic animals (in a Native American TL, some domesticated mountain goat or whatever) as "theirs" and fight off foxes, wolves, etc. (competitors in the wild) while their main prey is dying goats (allowed to be consumed by the herders) and of course rabbits. The margay might be a close equivelent to Old World wildcats, since it's slightly smaller than a domestic cat so could nicely kill your typical rodent pest while not being too big.

 

[phx1138]

A domesticated lynx isn't likely to kill your sheep (perhaps you're feeding them on rabbits, diseased sheep, mice, etc.), but a wild wolf probably will. Wild lynx generally won't target livestock larger than chickens or young sheep/goats/etc. since their many prey is rabbits. Not different from why OTL farmers have killed lynx as (understandable) threats to their livestock (poultry) despite owning various dog breeds.

I think I've got it, now. (I take a different approach to wolves: hurt them, but don't kill them; they won't risk permanent injury to a pack member, which hurts them all, but a death is just a cost of doing business--you might say they're like gangsters that way.)

There are at least a few grave burials of bobcats amongst the Mississippians, but bobcats seem too big and shy of humans to be a good domesticate. Although like the ocelot, they seem to be a nice size for a felid domesticate, since they can easily kill both smaller rodents and larger pests like rabbits. Assuming bobcats or ocelots could have a similar territorial nature like domestic cats (your typical housecat is suspicious of dogs and especially annoyed by new cats in the house), they could imagine domestic animals (in a Native American TL, some domesticated mountain goat or whatever) as "theirs" and fight off foxes, wolves, etc. (competitors in the wild) while their main prey is dying goats (allowed to be consumed by the herders) and of course rabbits. The margay might be a close equivelent to Old World wildcats, since it's slightly smaller than a domestic cat so could nicely kill your typical rodent pest while not being too big.

I like it. Add one factor: put the cubs in with sheep/goat youngsters, & let the cat cubs "imprint"; really make the flock "family". (It's known to work with housecats; maybe big cats are too hardwired to eat sheep...)

I had a thought, which may be impractical without genetic knowledge: how far back can we trace the lineage of domestic cats? And are there "friendly" genes further back that might enable their ancestors to be domesticated by prehistoric Man (or earlier hominids)?

 

[Arkenfolm]

I think I've got it, now. (I take a different approach to wolves: hurt them, but don't kill them; they won't risk permanent injury to a pack member, which hurts them all, but a death is just a cost of doing business--you might say they're like gangsters that way.)

It's known dogs--and wolves--respect "pack leaders" (pretty much how they got domesticated), and Cesar Millán more or less had it right. But it's a lot different in practice when our hypothetical American Indians have to actually stare down a pack of wolves--or coyotes, who aren't as bad but a similar nuisance.

I like it. Add one factor: put the cubs in with sheep/goat youngsters, & let the cat cubs "imprint"; really make the flock "family". (It's known to work with housecats; maybe big cats are too hardwired to eat sheep...)

I had a thought, which may be impractical without genetic knowledge: how far back can we trace the lineage of domestic cats? And are there "friendly" genes further back that might enable their ancestors to be domesticated by prehistoric Man (or earlier hominids)?

Leopard cats eat small critters and poultry, like their domesticated ancestors in China many millennia ago. Wildcats are pretty much the same. What we're discussing is bigger cats--lynx, fishing cats, etc., as well as more likely domestications amongst American Indians (if the first wave or two of settlers are separated from their dogs) like perhaps bobcats, lynx, ocelots, margays, etc.

 

[phx1138]

It's known dogs--and wolves--respect "pack leaders" (pretty much how they got domesticated), and Cesar Millán more or less had it right. But it's a lot different in practice when our hypothetical American Indians have to actually stare down a pack of wolves--or coyotes, who aren't as bad but a similar nuisance.

In a "meeting encounter", maybe not a thing to try, but in "siege" (farming or ranching), it makes sense, IMO. (Shotguns loaded with rock salt, frex, for all wranglers.) Make it too costly for them, they'll go elsewhere.

Leopard cats eat small critters and poultry, like their domesticated ancestors in China many millennia ago. Wildcats are pretty much the same. What we're discussing is bigger cats--lynx, fishing cats, etc., as well as more likely domestications amongst American Indians (if the first wave or two of settlers are separated from their dogs) like perhaps bobcats, lynx, ocelots, margays, etc.

I understand that. What I'm thinking is, how far back can you find an ancestor, & can you (reasonably) say a felid from that ancestry of, say, 100KYA, or 1MYA, could be domesticated? Or is that into handwavium territory? (In which case, Rule of Cool governs. )