Continuous Democracy - The Best Plausible Timeline?

ImmortalImpi, if it doesn't matter if you're an unconstitutional monarchy, then why did Iranians insist on moving to a democratic constitution? Why, when we refused to let their choice rule, did Iran move to the second best GREEK choice, still better than unconstitutional monarchy, of oligarchy?

Why are Saudis so much worse off than British or French?

What the hell are you talking about? This is a clear case of correlation not being causation. The governmental systems of these states were not the only thing that contributed to their rise and fall, and in fact had a minuscule effect on them. I'm not even sure you're blabbering about with the Greeks. Byzantium had an autocratic tradition, as did Russia, that served them well enough.

Athens' sea power was not due to its democracy, its democracy was due to its sea-power. Which is a natural development for states which have well-controlled and powerful merchant classes and an interest in free trade and trade leagues. Stop applying such stupid, insane anachronisms to the 5th century BC.
 
This is a bizzare approach to historiography.

I also question the idea that Persian victory is bad for democracy rather than Athens. It's bad for sovereign democracy, but they often replaced monarchic regimes with democratic ones where they took over Ionic poleis, so domestic democracy may well be better off.

Finally, the middle ages/early modern era amply show that when a competent prince really decides to take on a republic (whatever varying degrees of franchise), the competent prince wins.

But you know what, I'd love you to continue this timeline. I want to see the argument played out in full in the long-term. So I won't be commenting again, though I will be reading.

Also: Thalassa is "sea" rather than "water" and it's a borrowed word that probably stems from the Pelasgian era.
 
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I had an image post ready to post, but I found wikipedia image links've stopped working, for whatever reason. Even some old TL images no longer show. So, that's going to hafta wait awhile, maybe even forever, because I don't enjoy lawsuits.

It was a post about Hoplites.
 
Somehow, I'm not sure I want to know how hoplites relate to this "democracy is da best" idea.

After all, hoplites lost to Macedonians.
 
ImmortalImpi, once again you've proven irrational on classical Greek democracy. This' just the latest of a long pattern of irrationality on your part. I'm done talking with you on this subject, ever, for you are, for whatever reason, an irrational troll on the subject.


RGB, I did give reasons, remember. if you think I'm wrong, what's your explanation why the democratic Mapuche were the ONLY ones to hold off conquest for centuries, unlike everybody other native American tribes, including plenty of others far from the initial wave of plagues and conquest, their other advantage, including plenty that Canada ethnically cleansed.

Finally, the middle ages/early modern era amply show that when a competent prince really decides to take on a republic (whatever varying degrees of franchise), the competent prince wins.

Oh, yeah? Persia failed to conquer Greece, mostly because of democratic efforts, despite absurdly outnumbering them. And, that was their second try - the previous one, had failed at Marathon against purely Athenian troops. I've already cited the Mapuche as hanging on only for centuries against aristocratic invaders even with a tech edge, which is tons of fail. The Roman Republic also elected its generals, which' ALOT of wins, over five centuries.

Can you you think of anything as strong on the monarchic side as evidence? True, sometimes the Duke of Moscow beats the Republic of Novgorod or Napoleon conquers the Republic of Venice. But that's pretty outnumbered by the democratic wins I've cited.
 
Can you you think of anything as strong on the monarchic side as evidence? True, sometimes the Duke of Moscow beats the Republic of Novgorod or Napoleon conquers the Republic of Venice. But that's pretty outnumbered by the democratic wins I've cited.

Considering how nearly all of Italy was republican to some degree in the post-Lombard period, and what happened to those republics, I would rethink the perceived count of democratic victories.

Not to mention that endless Greek democracies lost to the monarchic Macedonians.

And the Pontic colonies to the Pontic Kingdom.

And of course the republican/democratic Carthage had a hard time with Sicilian tyrannies...mixed success at best.

And how the Dukes of Moscow quashed not only Novgorod, but also Pskov and Hlynov, and of course the Cossacks lost to the Russian state as well.

Iceland was taken over the by Crown without a real fight.

The fate of the longest-lasting Free Cities in Europe was irrelevance. Once they became significant, they got conquered. But of course it's never as one-sided as all that. Sometimes democratic states have the right conditions to flourish, and do.

Finally, the Mapuche were not particularly unique in either North or South America, surely you can't argue there was a brittle monarchy in charge of the Iroquois League.

But as I said...I won't be debating you on this anymore. I am just gonna lurk because I want to see the thing play out as you first had it in your head, not have it become endless rebuttal to whatever examples others might find.
 
I have been just following the thread so far;the thread does not seem to have clear directions and deals with too many issues not necessarily related,but firstly to confine observations to the updates:

I)someone answered something about 'Thalassa'=sea so the term means 'ruling the seas' or 'ruling the waves' as an Englishman would say.

2) My friend you are not sure if some states of the Delian league did not pay their contributions in 474 0r 472 BC:there wasn't such an instance;why? because it is not shown or inferred in the "Tribute Lists"-four stelae in the Agora of Athens recording every year the tribute of every state member of the Delian League.On Those stelae was based the considerable work of Russel Meiggs,"The Athenian Empire" probably the first source you should have offered,considering the topic.

3) As a corollary,cleruchies are easily evidenced from the Tribute Lists.But your problem here is that you haven't grasped well the meaning of the term
and its usefulness to Athens.I will explain that in another message another time.

4) Salamis:now here you quote numbers from Herodotus(1207 ships) and since you enter Herodotus into the argument
it should well be your second source,the translation offered in Penguin classics,because you need the first 42 pages
that is the leading criticism of "Historiae" as to where it can be reliable and where not, and in short,Herodotus shortcomings;that is to say it is a good guide of how to use Herodotus.In my opinion Herodotus in an excellent journalist,a superb laographer and secondly a rich but limited historian.On the issue in hand,Herodotus has the tendency to present campaign totals;on that strength his numbers are not very reliable for example about ships when he starts with 1207 and from...divine inclination to natural disasters present themselves,one before and one during the battle of Artemission that reduce the numbers by 400 ships.
Artemission was a savage battle especially when the Athenians came to grips with the elit of the Persian navy,the Egyptian squadron which came against them with its marines using axes and boarding pikes.The Athenians who had in Artemission 100 triremes,sustained heavy casualties although they repelled the attackers,but they had half their ships damaged so Themistocles had to recall the reserve squadron(100 triremes) from the Saronic gulf and to retreat from the line of Artemission after having learnt the sacrifice at Thermopylae.The total of the Greek fleet was 310 triremes,but despite Artemission Herodotus gives us the same numbers at Salamis,without taking losses into account.
See Bury&Meiggs "Ancient History of Greece to 323 BC" for the battle at Artemission.Should be your next source.

For the Persian Wars your paramount source should be the foremost authority on the subject and about Ancient Greek History A.R.Burn:"Persia and The Greeks" where the reason of Persian defeat and the Greek tactics is made apparent.

Herodotus strikes again with numbers in Thermopylae and Plataea where his numbers are surprisingly accurate to a fault,but as soon as the reader sees that he observes that he counts only the men of the phalanx and none else;small defect since it is general,all Greek writers do the same,see A.R.Burn about his reasoning and analysis on that.
I am afraid I have to call it a...night,it is already very late...

PS on non-payment of contribution by Delian League city-states,it should be added that the war against Persia was in full swing in its offensive phase and there was no chance on deviations at that stage(474 or 472 BC) and the contributions then were only in men and ships;their greatest victory was still to come.
 
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CalBear

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I was going to warn you for this little outburst, but since you have already been warned about playing Undercover Mod (and in a post toward the same member, just to make it better) clearly you need a bit more of a reminder.

You are kicked for a week.

Really, really try to be more polite when you return.

ImmortalImpi, once again you've proven irrational on classical Greek democracy. This' just the latest of a long pattern of irrationality on your part. I'm done talking with you on this subject, ever, for you are, for whatever reason, an irrational troll on the subject.


RGB, I did give reasons, remember. if you think I'm wrong, what's your explanation why the democratic Mapuche were the ONLY ones to hold off conquest for centuries, unlike everybody other native American tribes, including plenty of others far from the initial wave of plagues and conquest, their other advantage, including plenty that Canada ethnically cleansed.



Oh, yeah? Persia failed to conquer Greece, mostly because of democratic efforts, despite absurdly outnumbering them. And, that was their second try - the previous one, had failed at Marathon against purely Athenian troops. I've already cited the Mapuche as hanging on only for centuries against aristocratic invaders even with a tech edge, which is tons of fail. The Roman Republic also elected its generals, which' ALOT of wins, over five centuries.

Can you you think of anything as strong on the monarchic side as evidence? True, sometimes the Duke of Moscow beats the Republic of Novgorod or Napoleon conquers the Republic of Venice. But that's pretty outnumbered by the democratic wins I've cited.
 
I'm having to move this to historyalternate after my unjust kicking here when ImmortalMPI wasn't kicked, and for a "crime" that Ian has never announced as such.

The thread's literally too hot here. No porn or ponies, either - though, I'm even worse than Turtledove at porn, so you'd be right if it was porn ;-).

The new thread's here
 
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