Continuous Democracy - The Best Plausible Timeline?

Elfwine, now I understand how you could come to be so wrong about democracy vs other governments - I'm afraid Don Kagan was in the propaganda business, not history or evidence. He came to too many of his opinions before being bothered to check the evidence. Kagan's work needs to be taken with massive doses of salt. Consider his support for not only the Iraq War, but the utterly lame it was done, missing a basic occupation phase.

Here are two counterexamples of good democratic centralized effort. The United States outproduced Nazi Europe, and your own UK, was able to have the biggest Navy on Earth for centuries despite a small population and its high expense. Now, true, the IMHO oligarchic USSR did fine, too on war production.

Thucydides, BTW, did think one kind of democratic Athenian oligarchy toward the end of the war was the best constitution Athens'd had. So, why not? Yay, checks and balances on a democracy, like we have. They probably would've done FAR better with it. I've come up with an alternate path in my TL to get that.
 
Elfwine, now I understand how you could come to be so wrong about democracy vs other governments - I'm afraid Don Kagan was in the propaganda business, not history or evidence. He came to too many of his opinions before being bothered to check the evidence. Kagan's work needs to be taken with massive doses of salt. Consider his support for not only the Iraq War, but the utterly lame it was done, missing a basic occupation phase.

If you have a reason to doubt his work on the Peloponnesian war, I'm all ears. It doesn't look propaganda based to me (my reason for referencing it is him illustrating the problems with relying too much on Thucydides - he hardly argued Athenian democracy was broken. If anything, my impression from reading his book is that it looks as if Athens in oligarchic hands would be worse off given who would most likely make up that class. My view on democracy isn't based on this and is generally not based on Athens at all - which I count as an oligarchy, if a broad one, for its limited definition of "citizen".).

So please provide some reason to question his work as a historian. Preferably not by quoting a biased participant's incomplete account of the Pelopennesian war.

http://www.popmatters.com/pm/review/118978-thucydides-the-reinvention-of-history-by-donald-kagan

I haven't read this book, but as his views on Thucydides show in the book I did mention, the review is probably valid at weighing both men.

Here are two counterexamples of good democratic centralized effort. The United States outproduced Nazi Europe, and your own UK, was able to have the biggest Navy on Earth for centuries despite a small population and its high expense. Now, true, the IMHO oligarchic USSR did fine, too on war production.

Thucydides, BTW, did think one kind of democratic Athenian oligarchy toward the end of the war was the best constitution Athens'd had. So, why not? Yay, checks and balances on a democracy, like we have. They probably would've done FAR better with it. I've come up with an alternate path in my TL to get that.
My own UK? I'm British-descended, but I'm an American.

As for the US outproducing Nazi Europe: http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0851490.html

No Nazi equivalent of that, and supremely dysfunctional leadership. Bad combination. Has nothing to do with democracy>autocracy, however.
 
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Speaking in General

A small (and obvious!) point in favour of as democratic a set up as can be managed...

Wherever there's political power, there'll be hangers on trying to use it for their own profit, and probably for the general harm. The smaller the elite, the easier these courtiers (or household staff, or pr people) find it to isolate and misinform it.
 
A small (and obvious!) point in favour of as democratic a set up as can be managed...

Wherever there's political power, there'll be hangers on trying to use it for their own profit, and probably for the general harm. The smaller the elite, the easier these courtiers (or household staff, or pr people) find it to isolate and misinform it.

On the other hand (devil's advocate in me makes me have to defend monarchy here, as your point is quite valid)...a large mob is easily manipulated, just using different techniques.

Truth is, both are buggy.
 
Elfwine, thanks for being willing to be more thoughtful about monarchy. I should warn you, though, that the thread isn't about monarchy vs democracy, but my TL and discussion of that; so I'm only willing to talk briefly on this. Experience' taught me that the controversy will outgrow the TL proper.

And, this argument is delaying the finish of the battle and the rest of the TL. There are consequences....

I've never read Kagan's Peloponnesian War, so I can't tell you what's wrong. I stopped being willing to buy his books even well before Iraq, after buying a his "On the Origins of War". It included the idea, without justification, that Kennedy was a wimp in the Cuban Missile Crisis vs Khruschev. In realityland, of course, being aggressive in a nuclear crisis is a good way to get your country nuked and redecorated glow in the dark. Though, maybe I'm being unfair to him and he just likes glow in the dark.


On monarchy: for centuries, a trend's been afoot in Europe: the monarchies have been becoming more constitutional and democratic and even republican. Why?

A famous monarchist, Churchill, said democracy was the least bad way known. Why?

One answer's coming soon, with that battle update.
 
Elfwine, thanks for being willing to be more thoughtful about monarchy. I should warn you, though, that the thread isn't about monarchy vs democracy, but my TL and discussion of that; so I'm only willing to talk briefly on this. Experience' taught me that the controversy will outgrow the TL proper.

And, this argument is delaying the finish of the battle and the rest of the TL. There are consequences....

More thoughtful than...who? Or what?

Personally, my support of monarchy is based on the idea that it has been demonstrated to be effective, which is not an argument that can be made without acknowledging bad monarchs cause problems (at least not without being so holey it doesn't deserve to be called an argument). All systems of government are buggy.

As for (not getting into) monarchy vs. democracy, fine by me, I'm more concerned with democracy not necessarily producing optimistic-scenario results than whether a monarchy would do better (my reason for writing a monarchist scenario is an alternate world, not a utopian one).

I've never read Kagan's Peloponnesian War, so I can't tell you what's wrong. I stopped being willing to buy his books even well before Iraq, after buying a his "On the Origins of War". It included the idea, without justification, that Kennedy was a wimp in the Cuban Missile Crisis vs Khruschev. In realityland, of course, being aggressive in a nuclear crisis is a good way to get your country nuked and redecorated glow in the dark. Though, maybe I'm being unfair to him and he just likes glow in the dark.
Or maybe he had a point that dealt with that, and its not being noted. Having no more read On the Origins of War than you have read his book on the Peloponnesian war, I can't say.

On monarchy: for centuries, a trend's been afoot in Europe: the monarchies have been becoming more constitutional and democratic and even republican. Why?
OTL is not the best of all possible worlds. Saying that a trend has been afoot OTL to make monarchy as neutered as possible is not proof of that being wise.

A famous monarchist, Churchill, said democracy was the least bad way known. Why?
Churchill's support for democracy is so tepid (Five minutes of talk with the average voter being enough to be meaningfully discouraging?) I'm not sure I'd trust one quote over another.

One answer's coming soon, with that battle update.
Hopefully one based on something other than the author's biases. Democracy being capable of working doesn't mean democracy knows best.

And so I really hope this timeline acknowledges that rather than having it be treated as if giving a man a crown is at the price of his soul or his intelligence, but democracy is incapable of malfunctioning.
 
why???

I've realized something crazy. Tech topics and threads are far even more controversial than Sealion. I know - I've done both. Sealion wasn't free, but it involved a relatively reasonable amount of argument. Why??????????/

For newbs like Tangerine, Sealion was a Nazi invasion plan to invade Britain that's been considered pretty much impossible by the site until, well, I came up with a way.

I've even had to abandon certain particularly hopeless tech subtopics like anything to do with the Roman Empire because the whole site has strong opinions it immediately wants to get across.
 
Elfwine,
I think I'm done with talking with you if you're going just be in denial and pile the straw. This is a waste of both our times. I can't say I think much of your schooling and upbringing, if it left you thinking Saudi Arabia has as good a government as we do.


Tangerine, if want to contribute, you need to look up what you what think's wrong. I've told you where you can look yourself to understand more. Those are the rules of this site. I'm only going to answer points with attached evidence.
 
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Is this guy for real?

Jkay or me?

Elfwine,
I think I'm done with talking with you if you're going just be in denial and pile the straw. This is a waste of both our times. I can't say I think much of your schooling and upbringing, if it left you thinking Saudi Arabia has as good a government as we do.
Denial?

You need a better argument than that it has happened over the last few centuries that the neutering of monarchy has been beneficial.

As for straw...the only straw I see is the strawman you seem to have made of my position, which is not favorable to Saudi Arabia (Yes, it is a monarchy. That doesn't make it a positive good in and of itself.)
 
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Battle of Salamis, Part 3

"ROW, SLOWLY", he heard his trierarch shout. His crew started rowing. A trumpet sounded, loudly. It was turning to full dawn outside his porthole, and he could now solidly see the beach outside.

"ROW FAST, TURN STARBOARD, AND FOLLOW THE LINE!" Grace' trierarch projected. "Be careful to follow the fleet with discipline and good line order," he warned.

A few minutes later, Cikudes heard Grace trierarch Alcisthenes say, loudly, "The admiral has chosen Athenians to face the Phoenicians, the Persian best. He must think highly of us."

"Those Persian duffers can't even stay in line. Maybe we can win this if they can't even be disciplined", he heard, from above him, awhile later. Naval battles depended on staying in disciplined lines from their start for millenia, right until the aircraft carrier. Undisciplined fleets could more easily be picked off as individual ships rather than disciplined fleets, same as formations on land.

Cikudes heard a new noise, louder than the other noises. He was to hear far more of it during the battle. It was a loud sound of big pieces of wood breaking and warping, with a metal undertone. It was a ship being rammed - a big, metal ram going into a ship to sink it; and then, half a minute of backing later, going out so the sea could pour in and the ramming ship clear the wreck to ram more prev. Then came the was the sound of water going into the hull and sinking. Ramming was the leading edge naval technique of the day.

The battle continued as mostly noises and rowing to him awhile, though things he could feel started happening, more and more often. First came oars hitting his side of the hull, pushing Grace over, just
Then came more satisfying thuds and sinkings.

After what seemed like forever, he was relieved of duty for his neighbor on the other seat, also new to the sea. After recovering awhile, he went to take his turn poking his nose to see the battle for the first time.

He saw slings being slung by Greek Marines, and the occasional spear left them being thrown. He saw bows and arrows being fired by Persian Marines, on the other side.

He saw what looked like almost undisciplined melee all around him of Persian ships and Greek ships, except he could dimly see the Greek line near him was intact. But, more Persian ships seemed hurt than Greek ships, though he couldn't see far.

He hadn't been up to see it, but the space around his ship had become jammed early, and had been clearing for hours as Persian triremes jammed against each other so much they broke, or rammed by the better-organized Greeks had been getting away. Now his ship and the rest of the Greek fleet was finding space to move.

He saw his ship ram a Phoenician trireme amidships that had gotten tangled and couldn't do much. There was a slow but big crash, wood breaking everywhere, oars tangled. Then his ship reversed oars, and withdrew. The other ship's spine broke. Men tried to swim free; some were sucked in to drown with their ship, while others were speared or slung in the water. Others made it to land for the inevitable later enslavement.

Somewhat after he reached deck, A trumpet sounded. The Athenian line turned to head northwestward. "We're going to circle and flank the Phoenicians!" he heard Alcisthenes yell. Cikudes hadn't been in the military long enough to understand what that meant - just that he kept being told it was a bad thing for the flankee. The fresh crew used its fresh energy to row quickly.
 
I'm restarting the thread.

AI'm restarting the thread.

Sorry for the slow progress. Part it's that the Space Bats don't like it, another part's something weird about it being my first past TL.

I'm going to restart the posting of the Battle of Salamis from scratch, because I found a mistake in an already-posted part, and it started on a previous page. I've also changed the Battle to only two parts.
 
Battle of Salamis: Part 1

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Battle of Salamis: Part 1:
September, 480 BC / -1 DL

Battle_of_salamis.png

Salamis battle map

Cikudes son of was all sore and seasick from his ships's daily exercises when he felt the earthquake and wondered loudly, with the rest of the crew, whom the omen was for. He was sore and sick because he was still new to the sea. His family was mostly farmers, and he had grown up farming on his family farm. He and his younger brother Dion had decided when the war broke out that they had had enough of farming, and would go as far as they could, from the land, far out to sea. And so, they had responded when Themistocles asked for sailors for his fleet.

His family had, like most Athenians, since taken refuge in the city of Troezen. That was so the city could man the most ships as possible without needing to keep a home defense. The Athenian Navy's 180 ships made up most of the 300-strong Allied Greek Navy. They had been told by their leaders that they faced roughly 1200 ships, four times their numbers. They had already done fine against the vast Persian Fleet, despite the 4:1 disadvantage, though, at Artemisium. Their land buddies had lost one, at a pass near Thermopylae, but a famous loss that had lost a huge proportion of enemy Persians and made them delay four days.

If on the sea the odds were vast - 4:1, it was far worse on land. The Greeks had a mere few tens of thousands (40000?) facing, Greek contemporaries say, millions. There's alot of controversy about the Persian Army's actual size, of course, because it might well've overwhelmed the Greek scouts' ability to count, and some authors have liked to exxagerate a tad. but it must've also outnumbered the land forces even worse, or literally half of Greece would not have surrendered before the Persian Army even arrived, given the Persian loss at the last land battle where they also outnumbered the Greeks, Marathon. Nor would the Greeks have chosen to face them on the sea instead of land, given Marathon.

His trireme was pulled up on a beach with the rest of the Greek Fleet. That beach was in the northwestern part of the Strait of Salamis, in the middle right of the above picture. The Athenian part of the fleet was on the north side. The Athenian government had moved to Salamis to be exactly as safe as the Greek Fleet.

Their fleet was admiralled by a Spartan named Eurybiades, even though Athens had the most ships there. He did also get some advice from contingent commanders from various city states, including Athens' own Themistocles, whom Athens and the Popular Party he was part of loved and had every confidence in. Athens might not have been trusted to run the fleet because they were total newbs to the sea, and had no history of important fleet victories until, well, this very battle. Although, BIG, multi-hundred, fleet battles were a novelty to everybody, as far as we know; preceding battles involved less than a hundred triremes, and had, until recently, among the Greeks, been fought without rams, as though they were land battles happening to be fought on the sea.

Cikudes' job, like virtually all their crew except the Trierarch (captain)'s, steersmen, and some Marines, was mostly rowing. They had sails, but it was considered a secondary addition to rowing, and too unreliable for battle. He had also been trained in fighting, both on land and on the sea, but not much. Alot of the sea training had been done on the way to the fleet meeting


His fellow crew walked to the market Salamis and his fellow Athenians had set up for lunch. They ran across two Corinthian crews that were looking angry.

"Cor-inth! Cor-inth! Why not Cor-inth? Why not Cor-inth?" they yelled, in rhythm. The Greek Army was assembled there, because Corinth is an isthmus, meaning it narrows alot. A narrow spot is good in a battle, especially against big odds like the Greeks faced. The Corinthians wanted to unify the land and sea forces in that isthmus good for the land troops, no doubt doubly because it was at their city."

"Themistocles is right," said his trierarch, Alcisthenes, in a sure voice. "Salamis has the same kind of advantage as your Corinth, except on the sea, where it matters to us. Stationing ourselves here, to one side of the Strait here, means the Persians will face the same disadvantage as they will at Corinth and did at Thermopylae at first. And, if the Persian Fleet is defeated, most of the land army will have to go home because it cannot be supplied. You are seamen as much as we are; you know he's right in your head, even if your gut's having some trouble with it being your own city at stake.

"That's only if the Persian Fleet actually decides to stick its head into a trap. The Persian Army had no choice at Thermopylae and has no choice at Corinth, either. And, how long have we been waiting without him taking the bait?"

"All wars take patience to win rather than lose stupidly," Alcisthenes answered. "Though, sometimes it is hard to wait, and this is one of those times, true."

They ate from the many stalls standing in a market near the shore in Salamis.

Much later, a little after four hours after noon, a loud sound of rowing started in the background; speculation started on whom it was, a fleet or a messenger. Then it got too loud to be anything but what they were hoping for and fearing: the Persian Fleet, come to accept battle on their terms.

The Persian Fleet entered arrayed in three lines, all next to each other. The first triremes to enter had blue and red flags. There was muttering that that was the Phoenicians. They were the most famous mariners in the Med then. The idea of facing them in battle at huge odds in their favor did nothing for his nerves. They followed the line of the Strait of Salamis, crawling around northwestwardish from the far end.

By dinnertime, just before sunset, the sea was covered with Persian triremes. He felt even more nervous. He wondered if Themistocles could see the same sight, and how he felt about it. Part of him even wondered if Themistocles was running away or getting ready to give up.

Then the fleet had dinner, right after a messenger in Spartan Naval uniform arrived to summon Trierarch Alcisthenes to a Fleet meeting with the admirals.

When Alcisthenes returned, he summoned the ship's crew, and told them battle would probably be the next day, and to get as much sleep as possible. He told them there'd be a watch posted in case the Persians engaged foolishly at night. Cikudes tried hard to sleep, but was nervous; ongoing rowing noises didn't help; in the end, he only catnapped.


The next morning, he was awakened roughly with the rest of the fleet, at the start of dawn. He awoke, slowly, as usual, and ate breakfast nervously. Then, they went to listen to their Admiral Themistocles, also a the dominant Athenian politician of his day. Cikudes couldn't see much of him, but had no problem hearing him; like all politicians of his day, he was used to talking to crowds without mics.

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"I call on you this day to think of the very best that human nature and fortune, and the very worst. And, I challenge you this day to take your destiny in your very own hands this day and choose the best for your own selves." Then he offered sacrifices to the gods, and they returned to their ships.
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His crew, like all the rest of the entire crews of the Allied Greek Fleet, were hurrying to put out from land in the early gloom. When his reached their trireme Grace, a handful scrambled on board to stabilize it, handle lines, and get the ship ready to go. Once the crew were counted off and the ship ready, Cikudes and most of the crew pushed their ship off in seat order. Once Grace was well in the water, they then got on in that order, marines first, as the steersmen held it, and then followed to their steering posts. Cikudes, meanwhile, had his oars ready for the order to start rowing he knew must come soon.

He could see little, because, like most his fellow greenhorns, he was on the bottom of the three rowing decks, called the thalamite deck. Which deck you rowed on was mostly given by seniority, and he had exactly none of that. He could only see a tiny bit of the port side through the rowing frame and oarhole. That means he could only see a bit of the land they were leaving.

Cikudes could hear plenty, though - a thousand and a half ships rowing, chanting, and trumpeting and and throwing weapons at each other all makes a pretty loud noise.

First started the Greek ritual song, their Paean, sung into battle, among other occasions.

"ROW, SLOWLY", he heard his trierarch shout. His crew started rowing. A trumpet sounded, loudly. It was just full dawn outside his porthole, and he could now solidly see the beach outside.

"ROW FAST, TURN STARBOARD, AND FOLLOW THE LINE!" Grace' trierarch projected. "Be careful to follow the fleet with discipline and good line order," he warned.

A few minutes later, Cikudes heard Grace trierarch Alcisthenes say, loudly, "The admiral has chosen Athenians to face the Phoenicians, the Persian best. He must think highly of us."

"Those Persian duffers can't even stay in line. Maybe we can win this if they can't even be disciplined", he heard, from above him, awhile later. Naval battles depended on staying in disciplined lines from their start for millenia, right until the aircraft carrier . And even today, discipline matters alot. Undisciplined fleets can, even today, be more easily be picked off as individual ships rather than disciplined fleets, same as formations on land.

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Battle of Salamis: Part 2:


A trumpet sounded. The Athenian line turned to head northwestward. "We're going to go attack the Persians! We'll stay in our line formation, though, that's how we're going to beat them." he heard Alcisthenes yell. Cikudes' blood quickened - he liked the idea of attacking.

Cikudes heard a new noise, louder than the other noises. He was to hear far more of it during the battle. It was a loud sound of big pieces of wood breaking and warping, with a metal undertone. It was a ship being rammed - a big, metal ram going into a ship to sink it; and then, half a minute of backing later, going out so the sea could pour in and the ramming ship clear the wreck to ram more prev. Then came the was the sound of water going into the hull and sinking. Ramming was the leading edge naval technique of the day.

The battle continued as mostly noises and rowing to him awhile, though things he could feel and hear started happening, more and more often. First came oars hitting his side of the hull, pushing Grace over.

From above him, on the top deck, came a happy conversation.

"Look! The Persians keep running into each other. Maybe the duffers could all run into each other and end this for us."

"Seriously, the duffers must killing at least as many by running into each other in their undisciplined mob of ships as we Greeks are.

Then Grace rammed something he couldn't see, with a massive shock to the hull - he was thrown forward, and had to regain his oar, and reverse it, to try and pull them out. A few minutes later, after fear built in his belly that they'd be stuck, they got free.

And, there came more satisfying thuds and sinkings, more and more often, until became a cacophony of things happening to over a thousand triremes.

Eventually, a long time later, he felt like he was hearing fewer and fewer noises, like the battle was dying down, somehow.

After what seemed like forever, came noon and a change of watch and a meal, delivered by the galley crew pushing a sack along the aisle, and passing out yucky and hard rations, far worse than the normal shore-bought meal. But, he was hungry and wolfed it down anyway, after serious tooth work. After his benchmate ate, he carefully passed over the oar, and ate himself.

After recovering awhile from the long rowing, he went to take his turn poking his nose to finally see the battle for the first time. He saw slings being slung by Greek Marines, and the occasional spear left them being thrown. He saw bows and arrows being fired by Persian Marines, on the other side.

The sight he could see was many ships fighting mostly single ship to ship, as far as he could see.

He also sighted King Xerxes I, King of the Persian Empire sitting on top of a hill overlooking the battle, he'd been told. He could barely make out a light halo of a crown around his head.

He hadn't been up to see it, but the space around his ship had been jammed early, and had been clearing for hours as broken and running Greek and mostly Persian and triremes rowed or floated slowly free. The broken ones were either rammed or jammed against each other so much they broke and slowly as debris. It was mostly Persians whom had run or been broken because of the better Greek geography and plan and discipline.

He saw his ship ram a Phoenician trireme amidships that had gotten tangled and couldn't do much. There was a slow but big crash, wood breaking everywhere, oars tangled. Then his ship reversed oars, and withdrew. The other ship's spine broke. Men tried to swim free; some were sucked in to drown with their ship, while others were oar-speared or slung in the water. Others made it to land for the inevitable later enslavement.

Then he saw his ship saved by another ship behind them from ramming. Though the line was about gone, he was told this ship had stayed with them.

Then he napped, suddenly feelingly totally tired in every bone. But, he had miserable sleep, with nightmares. When the watch change woke him, he felt like it was the worst sleep of his life, and was wondering if he was really better off for it.

In late afternoon, he heard big yells of, "It's the Aeginetans!. Didn't they start on the other, far wing?" They were Greek maritime rivals to Athens, a near city-state.

"We've killed enough Persians to have thinned them out enough that now we're a circle, yelled their trierarch.

Soon reports came from deck,

"The Aeginetan bastards are even saving one of ours, came a yell from a nearby deck.

Soon after came the second change of watch, and it was his turn again on the oar.

We're almost done with ALL of them. Time to finish them!! Trierarch Alcisthenes yelled. Suddenly, he found himself rowing energetically again, despite his tiredness from the long battle. He heard slings flying faster from deck.

Eventually Greeks ran out of targets, and the arrows slowed far down. And celebratory cries came from above

Up started the Greek ritual song, their Paean, also sung to thank their Gods for victories as well as into battle. But Themistocles stopped them, and shouted that that they should go to the island of Psyttaleia and retake it from the Persians. Aristides, general of Athens, would land on it with troops. Grace's crew rowed there energetically, and the ship helped by having the ship's marines fire slings at the elite Persian troops there on the island.

A Greek shout of triumph arose from the island just as the sun was setting. Later, hey told him that King Xerxes of the Persians had rent his robe in fury and left as the Sun set and the Greeks finished retaking the island, the only thing remaining to complete his loss at Salamis.

Then they finally could start their Paean for real,

Cikudes was stunned. Only far later would he understand what an amazing and against the odds, and important thing that was. They had beaten an invader whom vastly outnumbered them.

That was an end to the Battle of Salamis. Later there would be a battle trophy set up and a sacrifice offered to their gods, by Greek custom.

--

Themistocles had previously sent a verbal message to Xerxes via a slave named Sicinnus. Here's how it went:

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"My master is eager to win the Great King's friendship to repay a coming betrayal of Athens. Tomorrow night, the other Greek fleets will abandon Salamis and the Athenian Fleet and return home. The King can still have his victory over us, but only if his fleet is there in time to keep the rest from escaping. We are quarreling, as well. Some of us are already ready to give up. We Athenians and others will switch sides."
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Not only did that bring the Persian Fleet to the battle on their terms, but it also cost them a night's sleep. For, they had to stay awake waiting for half the Greek Fleet to escape, as promised. The Persian Fleet was undisciplined because the Persian Admiral was chosen by birth rather that cluefulness; that's a problem that's haunted many monarchies and aristocracies.

---

This litle event also had some consequences.

Xerxes left with most of his army because he couldn't reach the rest of Greece by land, and didn't have enough fleet, and probably also because it was also too big to supply locally by land, all he had without dominating the sea, so he had to cut down alot. He did leave a smaller garrison force, though, which was small enough to be later beaten.

And, suddenly, their cred had grown to tremendous proportions. And, not just in Greece, but even in Greater Greece, the colonies, notably in the the Persian Empire northwestern coast, in the Asia Minor Coast, also as Turkey today.

--

It was a win for freedom at vast odds, done so very smartly there's everything to admire. How did it happen? Themistocles outsmarted and outgeneraled his opponents. Being smarter and outplanning your opponent is the most important advantage you can have in any contest, including war. Lincoln, Grant, Sherman, and Sheridan won our civil war by outsmarting and outgeneraling their less democratic rebel counterparts.

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Why Democracy / Thalassocracy Wins

Elections are the the least bad way we know of choosing smart leaders like Themistocles up to their jobs. It gives the best odds of any system ever tried. We have our Shrubs and Buchanans, but they're well outnumbered by those up to it. Choice by birth slightly mostly gives you lamers, like choosing somebody randomly would do. And, even good kings grow arrogant and corrupt in office, and then they aren't good anymore, but you can't give them the boot so easily.

All that's that's how the US and Canada COULD evilly ethnically cleanse and conquer most of North America, bwhaha.... Almost all the tribes also chose their leaders by birth. The Spain and France were only weakly constitutional monarchies. Mexico was a dictatorship. Also fitting my theory is that both times the US and Canada tangled, it was a draw. As an extra bonus, the one South American tribe that did elect their generals, of course, lasted a centuries against Spain despite the tech and disease gap.

There's also an outteching part; we COULD invent the repeating Colt that finally won the Plains against the longbow-fast Plains Indian arrow. We COULD build factories to build things fast and banks and stock exchanges and to finance goodies and wars. The Roman Republic was democratic and free enough that it COULD invent

And democracies are also easier on most of their peoples because of freedom and the better leadership, and a culture about helping the unlucky.

There are things thassalocracies are evil about, like every other kind of government, especially ethnic cleansing and empire. Though, we are also better about improving our ethics, if still too slowly, in a gradual spiral. Most recently, we realized that ethnic cleansing was evil. Before that was antiracism and antisexism, and before that antiimperialism.

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This is literally the most outrageous political plug for a certain system of governance I've seen in a long time. A democratic system, especially Athens', most certainly does not make them anymore benevolent or stronger than anyone else.

Stop ignoring the legitimate criticism of other people in order to fuel your own bizarre anachronistic assumptions about Democratic superiority.
 
This is literally the most outrageous political plug for a certain system of governance I've seen in a long time. A democratic system, especially Athens', most certainly does not make them anymore benevolent or stronger than anyone else.

Stop ignoring the legitimate criticism of other people in order to fuel your own bizarre anachronistic assumptions about Democratic superiority.

And ancient democracy != modern democracy.

I mean most of AH.commers would agree that autocracy is outdated, but it doesn't mean it's unviable.
 
And ancient democracy != modern democracy.

I mean most of AH.commers would agree that autocracy is outdated, but it doesn't mean it's unviable.

As demonstrated rather effectively by the Soviet Union taking Russia from a crippled wreck (1920) to the only other Superpower in a generation.

Not the USSR wasn't riddled with issues and sacrifices of just about everything, but that level of industrial build up has no parallel in the democratic world, with the possible exception of post-ACW to 1900 USA, and even that wasn't so extreme.

Hey, someone has to argue the USSR got at least some things right some of the time with Snake gone.

But regardless of the strengths and merits of each government, writing something where Athenian democracy doing better than OTL is "the best possible timeline" is - as ImmortalImpi noted - so heavy handed in its ideologuery it is painful.
 
ImmortalImpi, if it doesn't matter if you're an unconstitutional monarchy, then why did Iranians insist on moving to a democratic constitution? Why, when we refused to let their choice rule, did Iran move to the second best GREEK choice, still better than unconstitutional monarchy, of oligarchy?

Why are Saudis so much worse off than British or French?
 
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