Best case scenario for ottoman empire?

[Rockingham]

Clarify this.

The post I was responding to seems to have vanished...

Someone said that it would be impossible for Ottomans to develop it's industry, because europen policy was prevention of rivals emerging and challenging it's power. USA is the other OTL example... depending on whether you consider it european or not

 

[Rockingham]

Another point: At the beginning of the threat, most people agreed that overextension of the Ottomans led to their decline until the 19th century - yet to counter that development, they should overextent even more into spain and Germany? How does that work?

The spanish gain would have been very early on , and possibly prevented colonialism of new world for longer, which is a big plus for ottomans. This would also have the effect of changing the ottomans extension, possibly making them med centric, not balkan centric. In this case, they probaly wouldn't make all their otl gains in the balkans, at least not as soon. But weaker hapsburgs more then compensates for that.

As long as they have french guarantees and british alliance, they have nothing to fear on the med, and with a victory against russia, they wont be as tempting a target by the rest of Europe. The gains needn't mean over extension at this point(1878).

 

[ArKhan]

The spanish gain would have been very early on , and possibly prevented colonialism of new world for longer, which is a big plus for ottomans. This would also have the effect of changing the ottomans extension, possibly making them med centric, not balkan centric. In this case, they probaly wouldn't make all their otl gains in the balkans, at least not as soon. But weaker hapsburgs more then compensates for that.

As long as they have french guarantees and british alliance, they have nothing to fear on the med, and with a victory against russia, they wont be as tempting a target by the rest of Europe. The gains needn't mean over extension at this point(1878).

I disagree. None of this is remotely possible. You just can't have the Ottoman empire in Europe with out it being a target.

 

[stevep]

I disagree. None of this is remotely possible. You just can't have the Ottoman empire in Europe with out it being a target.

Arkhan

That's true for any state that starts to decay and is unable to maintain its power. The religious differences between the Ottomans and the rest of Europe complicated matters but once it ceased to be a predominantly expansive prophesying state this was not a major factor.

Steve

 

[Rockingham]

I disagree. None of this is remotely possible. You just can't have the Ottoman empire in Europe with out it being a target.

-The spanish gain isn't plausible, I know, I was simply saying it would result in a different ottoman extension if it did.
-As stevep said, it was the ottomans weakness, not religion, which caused hostility towards it.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

-The spanish gain isn't plausible, I know, I was simply saying it would result in a different ottoman extension if it did.
-As stevep said, it was the ottomans weakness, not religion, which caused hostility towards it.

I think it's more like Ottoman weakness was the reason for successful hostility against the empire - religion was always a very big issue in it.

Anyway, I agree that overextension was the big problem - endless wars against not only the Hapsburgs and Russia but Persia, consumed too many resources and caused the empire to lose the centralized cohesion that made it so formidable and able to effectively use its actually rather limited resources.

I still think leaving Hungary as an independent buffer state would have made a huge difference.

 

[ArKhan]

Arkhan

That's true for any state that starts to decay and is unable to maintain its power. The religious differences between the Ottomans and the rest of Europe complicated matters but once it ceased to be a predominantly expansive prophesying state this was not a major factor.

Steve

You really think that's all? The fact that they enslaved europeans wasn't a factor?

 

[stevep]

You really think that's all? The fact that they enslaved europeans wasn't a factor?

Arkhan

The religious hostility was a factor. However for most of the period that the Ottomans were about and especially the period they were a major threat, they weren't the only people enslaving Europeans. [Including a lot of other Europeans]. Much of the sense of European identity was generated by the conflict with and threat from the Muslim world, which in the later years meant the Ottomans. However by the late 18thC when the empire was clearly in decline relative to the Europeans they were already moving beyond the constraints of the traditional Christian-Muslim conflict.

Steve