At what point was Nazi Germany doomed to defeat?

[Gamingboy]

Rule no. 1 of history: NEVER invade Russia if there's the slightest of chances you might get caught in the Russian winter.

 

[Bismarck]

Rule no. 1 of history: NEVER invade Russia if there's the slightest of chances you might get caught in the Russian winter.

Why didn't that apply to Germany during World War I?

 

[Gamingboy]

Why didn't that apply to Germany during World War I?

Rule No. 2 of History: All other rules are null if the country being invaded is being helped by a mad Monk who claims he can heal people.

 

[Wozza]

Rule No. 2 of History: All other rules are null if the country being invaded is being helped by a mad Monk who claims he can heal people.

so why did they keep winning when the monk was dead?

 

[Gamingboy]

so why did they keep winning when the monk was dead?

Rule No. 3 of History: All other rules are also Null if the invaded country is on the brink of a revolution or civil war.

 

[Jason]

Rule No. 3 of History: All other rules are also Null if the invaded country is on the brink of a revolution or civil war.

Rule 4: There is always the exception that proves the rule!

 

[Wozza]

Rule No. 3 of History: All other rules are also Null if the invaded country is on the brink of a revolution or civil war.

I see the number of rules is growing exponentially.

Sadly defeat in war caused the revolution at least as much as the other way around, or at the very least the two events share common causes.

 

[Bismarck]

Rule 4: There is always the exception that proves the rule!

Rule 5: Therefore, there is an exception to Rule 4!

 

[jolo]

Germany might still feel like being on the winning side if the Western Allies had taken the offer of fighting against the Russians together - even or especially after Hitler's death. Germany would still have had to become a democracy. Similar to Italy.

A war past 1945 against the US cannot be won without Germany developing the bomb, too, or a *very* effective weapon against air strikes. Even then, Germany would loose in the long run due to less ressources, a less effective economic system, and so on.

Funny that if Hitler had given up his expansionism after grabbing most of Czechoslovakia (according to the treaties he signed) and just used diplomatic pressure against Poland to get the Corridor eventually, he'd be remembered as one of the greatest German chancellors, mentioned together with Bismarck. I suppose without the war, there might also be not such a drastic version of the Holocaust, as Hitler apparently tried to make his people fight to the end by having them get lots of blood on their hands. The persecution of minorities would have lasted longer, might have had less casualties though, and would have ended some day similar to segregation, apartheid, and the likes.

 

[Anaxagoras]

Funny that if Hitler had given up his expansionism after grabbing most of Czechoslovakia (according to the treaties he signed) and just used diplomatic pressure against Poland to get the Corridor eventually, he'd be remembered as one of the greatest German chancellors, mentioned together with Bismarck. I suppose without the war, there might also be not such a drastic version of the Holocaust, as Hitler apparently tried to make his people fight to the end by having them get lots of blood on their hands. The persecution of minorities would have lasted longer, might have had less casualties though, and would have ended some day similar to segregation, apartheid, and the likes.

Stopping after Czechoslovakia was never on the table. When he wrote Mein Kampf, Hitler laid out very clearly what bis long-term goal was- the destruction of Russia and its enslavement to Germany, once the Western democracies were out of the way. Everything he did was a means to that end.

Nor was the Holocaust a means to an end, as you suggest. It was an end unto itself. Again, Mein Kampf and his later statements on this subject make this quite clear.

In fact, Hitlery was actually ANGRY with France and Britain for giving in at Munich, because he genuinely WANTED war.

 

[Anaxagoras]

Rule no. 1 of history: NEVER invade Russia if there's the slightest of chances you might get caught in the Russian winter.

Exemption to Rule no. 1: Mongols

 

[Bulgaroktonos]

Nor was the Holocaust a means to an end, as you suggest. It was an end unto itself. Again, Mein Kampf and his later statements on this subject make this quite clear.

Actually, a lot of people disagree with such an assesment. I just attended a lecture and talked to a prominent historian of the Holocaust, and he generally agreed with my assertion that Hitler didn't want to slaughter the Jews from the start.

He disagreed with my view that the Jews were simply easily accessible targets.

The problem is that while there was violence against Jews before the war, it was never even close to the systematic, state organized and run programs of wartime. It was more state-sanctioned than run. Indeed, it was incredibly easy for Jews to leave Germany in the pre-war years, and many did. But where did they go? France, Belgium, Poland, Denmark, the Netherlands. All places under Nazi occupation within a few years, thus representing the problem to the Nazi leadership. With nowhere to send the newly reacquired Jewish population the Holocaust became a way to re-solve a problem they had thought they had more or less worked out before the war.

 

[BurningWickerman]

The loss of the battle of britain. The initative was lost and Germany could no longer be fighting a series of quick, decisive wars.

 

[Max Sinister]

And let's not forget: If Hitler hadn't started the war in 1939, Germany would've been broke very soon.

 

[Mayhem]

Funny that if Hitler had given up his expansionism after grabbing most of Czechoslovakia (according to the treaties he signed) and just used diplomatic pressure against Poland to get the Corridor eventually, he'd be remembered as one of the greatest German chancellors, mentioned together with Bismarck. I suppose without the war, there might also be not such a drastic version of the Holocaust, as Hitler apparently tried to make his people fight to the end by having them get lots of blood on their hands. The persecution of minorities would have lasted longer, might have had less casualties though, and would have ended some day similar to segregation, apartheid, and the likes.

Hmm- Hitler assassinated November 1939- Remembered a hero?
Oddness.

 

[jolo]

Stopping after Czechoslovakia was never on the table. When he wrote Mein Kampf, Hitler laid out very clearly what bis long-term goal was- the destruction of Russia and its enslavement to Germany, once the Western democracies were out of the way. Everything he did was a means to that end.

Nor was the Holocaust a means to an end, as you suggest. It was an end unto itself. Again, Mein Kampf and his later statements on this subject make this quite clear.

In fact, Hitlery was actually ANGRY with France and Britain for giving in at Munich, because he genuinely WANTED war.

I agree that Hitler definitely wanted a war against Russia. And he'd also not have minded taking revanche on Britain and France, recapturing Elsace-Lorraine. Furthermore, he and the Nazis were definitely anti-Jewish - up to allowing the Holocaust to happen even without a war.

But that doesn't really negate what I said - *if* he had had a change of mind (if he had not been mad, just babbling a lot and pushing the limits), things might have been judged quite differently by the following generations.

 

[Gamingboy]

Exemption to Rule no. 1: Mongols

Rule No. 6 of History: The Mongols don't care about any of these rules except rule numbers 7 and 8, and will ignore them.


Rule No. 7: If a hurricane is coming towards your invasion fleet, you are doomed.

Rule No. 8: If your leader dies, you must go back to your homeland despite the fact that a entire defenseless continent is in front of you. This rule only applies to Mongols and other such nomads.

 

[AMBOMB]

Germany sealed its doom by going to war with the United States. Our industrial capacity was just too great. Not only could it create a war machine the likes of which the world had never seen, it could supply the other Allies with tremendous quantities of weapons and equipment. BTW, the United States entered the war in the fall of 1941, not the winter.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Can we please have some WWII ATL's which do not feature Manstein or Speer?

What about Rommel, Guderian, or von Witzleben, then? Heh.

Why doesn't Canaris ever get a bigger role in WWII AH's?

 

[Anaxagoras]

BTW, the United States entered the war in the fall of 1941, not the winter.

Who cares about such a minor technicality?