Another preview of one of my timelines
- Thread starter Straha
- Start date
Something to Consider...
Straha-
Mexico has a population of at least 100 million people (2000) , while all of the states of the CSA in the ATL, has a total population of 88.2 million people (2000) in OTL, 1/3 of which is African-American (c. 29.4 million people). As such, you have a racial situation wherein only 58.8 million WASP people have control over the lives of over 129.4 million people. Even without the addition of the other Central American states, there are several things that will be apparent. First, Roman-Catholicism will be the majority faith, not Baptist or Protestant. Second, the majority of the population speaks Spanish, not English. As such, you may want to have the history reflect the history of Mexico, rather than just the U.S. South....
Straha-
Mexico has a population of at least 100 million people (2000) , while all of the states of the CSA in the ATL, has a total population of 88.2 million people (2000) in OTL, 1/3 of which is African-American (c. 29.4 million people). As such, you have a racial situation wherein only 58.8 million WASP people have control over the lives of over 129.4 million people. Even without the addition of the other Central American states, there are several things that will be apparent. First, Roman-Catholicism will be the majority faith, not Baptist or Protestant. Second, the majority of the population speaks Spanish, not English. As such, you may want to have the history reflect the history of Mexico, rather than just the U.S. South....
Straha
Banned
Wendell said:
Wendell- Technically it would but since JApan and the US are close allies so...
Scarecrow: if you don't like it don't read it and stay out of my thread.
Mr. Bondoc: Interesting but Mexico's big growth in OTL only started post WWII. Between the 1820's to 1940 the population only doubled. Most of the population before the 1940's lived in the old aztec heartlant. Wth the CSA getting its hands on those areas earlier and doing settlement/bringing in slaves the population may be different. 65 million white confeoderates(some go to the union and better conditions for the whites than OTL) to 67 million blacks(higher population growth due to third world condictions) and 67 million mexicans(lower growth than OTL due to being richer)
Straha said:
Straha- Based on the mathematics of the situation alone, you have 134 million people who are non-White and are bound to take offense to having the white minority of 65 million people dictate the terms of survival in the ATL. To give you a good idea of how bad things will be, the racial breakdown is very similar to South Africa (c. 1948-1985). As such, you can sertainly expect the financial security of Mexico, with the political stability of apartheid-era South Africa. In the ATL, you can see MLK Jr. (if he exists) taking on the role of Nelson Mandela and Malcolm Little (OTL's Malcolm X) taking on the role of Stephen Biko....
luakel said:
Isn't it a bad idea to try applying OTL's politics to other TLs? Especially when our definitions or perceptions are so radically different compared to previous eras.
Note that the definition of liberal in the US changed radically from the late 19th century to 1933, taking on a distinctly more pro-welfare state rather than libertarian meaning. It changed once more in the 1960's, taking on a more socially "tolerant" and doveish meaning (i.e. "bleeding heart liberalism"). Then it arguably became a (mostly) pejorative term by the 1990's.
Really, due to divergences many TLs politics are unlikely to really fit into common definitions of "left" or "right". For example, in one timeline I'm doing the United States sees social programs and the federal government expand earlier, but it doesn't necessarily become that much more politically "progressive."
POTUS P.Diffin said:
POTUS Diffin & Straha- Consider the following ideas when designing the CSA or an America with a POD in the 19th century.
-First, with the CSA you may want to have state governments experiment with "racial cosmopolitanism" (see United States), "national homeland acts"(see South Africa), "occupation passport" (see South Africa) or "assimilation programs" (see Australia). The point is that, by definition, the CSA would certainly have several racial policies...
-Second,"eugenics" was created in the United States in the 1880s. In OTL, it must be remembered that this was a social reaction to Darwin. While it seems disturbing to us today, there was talk of sterilization of criminal populations and the handicapped for the "betterment of society". There was also the belief that the Bible supported such a view of humanity with the "sons of Ham" and the "mark of Cain".
-Third, the nature of free-market capitalism as we know it was not fully integrated into American ideas until roughly 1890s. If you have a POD c. 1800-1850, consider the "communal socialism" of Charles Fourier and his followers. In the latter part of the 19thCentury , you have the emergence of the "barons" of industry (e.g. Du Pont, Rockefeller, et al.). As such, the idea of a "monopoly capitalism" was considered a good thing. In the South, around this same time period, the populist movement was calling for "agrarian socialism". While this seems strange or arcane, please consider these economic ideas ...
Straha said:
Good...good...let's check...
Oh, he's actually in the Pacific Northwest, like I am. He's in the upper middle management of a major software corporation...
Some Sources of Friction...
- First, consider that not every part of the CSA will allow the idea of apartheid and will consider it a "national embarassment". You could have tolerant areas of Louisiana (e.g. New Orleans), Cuba, and Mexico experiment with U.S. style desegregation. These regions will most certainly clash with those regions that demand "occupational passports" or "national homelands". Another problem is that those regions that are tolerant would most likely seal their state borders to deal with the flood of refugees, causing even more conflict...
-Second, with the military the only means for social status rising, consider that the military will be filled in its ranks with lower and middle income rank and file. In nations that promote racial intolerance. This often sets the grounds for military coups against the government...
-Third, consider the fact that the CSA economy is heavily reliant on the weather (e.g. drought/hurricanes/flooding). This means the economy is more likely to fluctuate with the ebb and tide of the seasons. Unfortunately, this means an economy that is always a few steps from disaster....
Straha said:
- First, consider that not every part of the CSA will allow the idea of apartheid and will consider it a "national embarassment". You could have tolerant areas of Louisiana (e.g. New Orleans), Cuba, and Mexico experiment with U.S. style desegregation. These regions will most certainly clash with those regions that demand "occupational passports" or "national homelands". Another problem is that those regions that are tolerant would most likely seal their state borders to deal with the flood of refugees, causing even more conflict...
-Second, with the military the only means for social status rising, consider that the military will be filled in its ranks with lower and middle income rank and file. In nations that promote racial intolerance. This often sets the grounds for military coups against the government...
-Third, consider the fact that the CSA economy is heavily reliant on the weather (e.g. drought/hurricanes/flooding). This means the economy is more likely to fluctuate with the ebb and tide of the seasons. Unfortunately, this means an economy that is always a few steps from disaster....
My personal favorite "independent CSA" timeline happens to be CSA Today, by the way. Matthew White is great...
Straha said:
Well, let's see here...there are actually quite a few duplicates of OTL, and I think there are quite a few worlds with minimum divergence from OTL...
Straha said:
They aren't...I checked. One I like has an Evergreen Khanate, but everything else is the exact same.