An Islamic "On the Origin of Species"

[Nekromans]

I've invented a new Internet phenomenon: Al-Godwin's Law. It postulates that, should a thread on AH.com have the word Islam in its title, the chance of it degenerating into Abdul and Ibn Warraq making extremely long posts contradicting each other increases by 20% with each post.

 

[Max Sinister]

"Actually, Darwin had a huge impact on Ottoman thinkers - you can see it in all their writings."

How so?

 

[Doctor What]

I've invented a new Internet phenomenon: Al-Godwin's Law. It postulates that, should a thread on AH.com have the word Islam in its title, the chance of it degenerating into Abdul and Ibn Warraq making extremely long posts contradicting each other increases by 20% with each post.

30%, my dear Nek....

 

[Nekromans]

30%, my dear Nek....

Good heavens, so sorry, Dr. Hoodbhoy.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

"Actually, Darwin had a huge impact on Ottoman thinkers - you can see it in all their writings."

How so?

Yes, Abdul, very unfair of you to just casually mention that and not enlighten us.

 

[Ran Exilis]

"Actually, Darwin had a huge impact on Ottoman thinkers - you can see it in all their writings."

How so?

I was wondering about that too.

In this relatively short article about Islam and Darwinism, I found the following statement:

In 1873, in the days of the Ottoman Empire, Mithat Efendi mentioned Darwin's theory in one of his writings. The religious scholars put out a fatwa declaring him an apostate. In the twentieth century, the scholars lost their traditional power in many countries, and Western ideas increased in influence. Still, Muslim thinkers took it for granted that either evolution did not occur, or that any development in life happened under direct divine guidance. The Quran, after all, declares special creation, particularly of humans. The blind naturalistic process modern science has come to accept obviously had to be wrong; the Darwinian view of nature was but another indication of Western degeneration in religion and morals. However, Muslim apologists rarely felt a need to elaborate their dismissal of Darwin.

Perhaps Abdul can elaborate on this?

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

In 1873, in the days of the Ottoman Empire, Mithat Efendi mentioned Darwin's theory in one of his writings. The religious scholars put out a fatwa declaring him an apostate.

Is this the Midhat Pasha that worked on the Law of Vilayets and served as wali of Baghdad?

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Is this the Midhat Pasha that worked on the Law of Vilayets and served as wali of Baghdad?

No - Midhat is not an unusual name' "effendi" is a very basic title of respect, whereas Pasha is fairly grand. Midhat Pasha was probably and atheist.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

I don't think a bunch of clerics necessarily constitute Ottoman "thinkers", do you? It's kind of like saying the College of Cardinals are a font of philosophy. But then, why should I to wonder if anyone could ever bring up the subject of Islam without recourse to digging up the most conservative thing we could tar Muslims with. What is the point of this post? Can you even name one Ottoman 19th or 20th c thinker? And how could Darwin be declared an apostate if he was never Muslim? Didn't that in itself raise a red flag for you?

Anyway, the Tanzimat was the Ottoman reform movement, which was very autocratic in nature, which really alienated the next generation of intellectuals, who were collectively called the Young Ottomans; while not a formal political party, they were heavily influenced by Rousseau and Montesquieu - Midhat Pasha even went as far as to suggest that maybe the Sultanate and Caliphate should be divided between different people.

The Young Ottomans were unsuccessful and replaced by Hamidiyan autocracy, and the next generation, the Young Turks, were guided my Materialism and Positivism. Ahmed Riza is probably the most well-known of these as he published quite a bit in French while in exile in Paris. One of his greatest influences was Auguste Comte.

Ahmed Riza actually wrote a book about the Crusades from the Muslim point of view that is available in English; it is designed to generate French sympathy for the Kemalists, but it does contain many thought provoking ideas about the motivations behind the Crusades and how Muslims might have seen it.

I was wondering about that too.

In this relatively short article about Islam and Darwinism, I found the following statement:



Perhaps Abdul can elaborate on this?

 

[MrP]

And how could Darwin be declared an apostate if he was never Muslim? Didn't that in itself raise a red flag for you?

Not to interpose my soft fleshy body into the shooting match, but the section -

In 1873, in the days of the Ottoman Empire, Mithat Efendi mentioned Darwin's theory in one of his writings. The religious scholars put out a fatwa declaring him an apostate.

- doesn't read to me as though Darwin was declared apostate, but Mithat, so I can't see it raising a red flag about Darwin.

I hasten to add that I know nothing about the subject, and am, therefore, in no way disputing any major points anyone is saying in this thread at all in any way whatsoever, so there. Right, that's my arse covered.

 

[carlton_bach]

- doesn't read to me as though Darwin was declared apostate, but Mithat, so I can't see it raising a red flag about Darwin.

This really wouldn't surprise me one bit given what the Christian churches had to say about Darwininsm at the time. Keep these things in mind

- this reaction comes from a group of religious leaders

- Darwinism (which is different from Darwin's theory and to a large extent was created as a movement by Huxley) is an avowedly atheist school with deist fringes and a strongly antireligious bent

- By Islamic religious law, a Muslim must not espouse an atheist doctrine. Similar things apply to Catholics.

None of this says anything about how a Muslim society would respond to a theory of evolution, but it teaches us that the reaction of established religious authorities to challenges to their dogma is pretty predictable the world over.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Not to interpose my soft fleshy body into the shooting match, but the section -



- doesn't read to me as though Darwin was declared apostate, but Mithat, so I can't see it raising a red flag about Darwin.

I hasten to add that I know nothing about the subject, and am, therefore, in no way disputing any major points anyone is saying in this thread at all in any way whatsoever, so there. Right, that's my arse covered.

Oops, teach me to post before coffee. You're quite right, statement withdrawn, sorry Ran Exilis.

I might note that that Midhat never had any action taken against him and ended up being a very prominent and influential intellectual.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Anyway, to continue, most Ottoman thinkers didn't really care much about the religious implications of Darwin.

But the greatest impact was the impetus Darwin gave to the ideas that are grouped under the term "Social Darwinism", which led many Ottomans to look for a racial identity and led to the birth of the Turkish "ethnicity", and was a large driver of the Ottoman Empire into WWI for many of the same reasons the Germans espoused.

With regard to Darwinism itself, it's not a big departure from what medieval Islamic scholars were coming up with. Here's a quote from al-Jahiz from Kitab al-Hayawan:

Animals engage in a struggle for existence; for resources, to avoid being eaten and to breed. Environmental factors influence organisms to develop new characteristics to ensure survival, thus transforming into new species. Animals that survive to breed can pass on their successful characteristics to offspring.

He was from Basra, and some guy from Baghdad accused him of plagiarizing from Aristotle (although the above is original), which just goes to show that academia hasn't changed much.

 

[Tocomocho]

With regard to Darwinism itself, it's not a big departure from what medieval Islamic scholars were coming up with. Here's a quote from al-Jahiz from Kitab al-Hayawan:

Probably the most interesting thing I read in the time I had visited this forums. Why this didn't became more popular/discussed in its time? Perhaps the lack of printing press and therefore enough expansion of the idea?

 

[Kidblast]

I knew a devout Muslim when I worked at the bank - his view was that Evolution is bollocks and Islam means Science and that if its not in the Koran its not true

I know a family of liberal Muslims who thinks that evolution is made up.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Probably the most interesting thing I read in the time I had visited this forums. Why this didn't became more popular/discussed in its time? Perhaps the lack of printing press and therefore enough expansion of the idea?

Well, most people probably didn't give a sh#$ - and a printing press won't do you much good when everyone is illiterate!

 

[Ran Exilis]

About the printing press: I recall reading that many Muslim communities were somewhat reluctant to adopt the printing press.

However, I'm not quite sure about this...

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

About the printing press: I recall reading that many Muslim communities were somewhat reluctant to adopt the printing press.

However, I'm not quite sure about this...

Yes, the scribal guilds were very powerful and resisted them. Also, autocracies don't like it when people can mass-print stuff!

 

[Caesar]

Yes, the scribal guilds were very powerful and resisted them. Also, autocracies don't like it when people can mass-print stuff!

Didn't it have something to do with a view that the Quran should only be copied by hand? I can't remember the exact reason, but it was something along those lines.

 

[Leo Caesius]

Didn't it have something to do with a view that the Quran should only be copied by hand? I can't remember the exact reason, but it was something along those lines.

Spoken like a true card-carrying member of the Scribes' Guild...