America, the Coalition's Buddy - A Franco-American War Timeline
- Thread starter SuperFrog
- Start date
OK, USA gets a lot for not much
So now the USA can make a land deal with the British after Amiens
The USA can trade these islands in the Caribbean for Upper Canada and the Red River drainage area. With no islands, the US navy can go to a more reasonable size for the period. With the islands, the USA will have to maintain a larger navy.
With complete control of the Red River area, USA is able to make a stronger claim in Oregon. I am not saying that USA gets all of Oregon, but maybe all except for Vancouver Island.
Would be interesting if when Mexico gets its independence, Mexico does not recognize USA control over Texas and starts a war with the USA sooner. Granada aids the USA and controls more of Central America. USA takes more of Mexico (New Mexico, California, Sonora). Or New Mexico residents rebel against Mexico for not offering more support against Native Americans and the New Mexicans call for the USA for help. The USA obliges and annexes New Mexico, California, and Sonora in the 1820's and 1830's before the slavery battle really heats up.
Federalists under Adams are a lock for the 1800 election it seems.
Speaking of slavery, what is the division of the Louisiana territory that the Federalists just won? No slavery outside of New Orleans and Banton Rouge?
South might go for it since they have the Caribbean Islands.
Then in 1803, Federalists are discredited, the South turns solid Democrat-Republican when the Federalists make a deal for the islands for some of BNA
Also, since no money was spent on Louisiana, maybe the Federalists gather more support in New England and New York with internal improvements. Is it feasible for the Eerie canal to be started a decade sooner? If not, then at least more roads in these areas in the North could be started.
just some thoughts, very thought provoking timeline.
Will see if USA joins the Brits in another year or so when the Napoleonic Wars start back up again
So now the USA can make a land deal with the British after Amiens
The USA can trade these islands in the Caribbean for Upper Canada and the Red River drainage area. With no islands, the US navy can go to a more reasonable size for the period. With the islands, the USA will have to maintain a larger navy.
With complete control of the Red River area, USA is able to make a stronger claim in Oregon. I am not saying that USA gets all of Oregon, but maybe all except for Vancouver Island.
Would be interesting if when Mexico gets its independence, Mexico does not recognize USA control over Texas and starts a war with the USA sooner. Granada aids the USA and controls more of Central America. USA takes more of Mexico (New Mexico, California, Sonora). Or New Mexico residents rebel against Mexico for not offering more support against Native Americans and the New Mexicans call for the USA for help. The USA obliges and annexes New Mexico, California, and Sonora in the 1820's and 1830's before the slavery battle really heats up.
Federalists under Adams are a lock for the 1800 election it seems.
Speaking of slavery, what is the division of the Louisiana territory that the Federalists just won? No slavery outside of New Orleans and Banton Rouge?
South might go for it since they have the Caribbean Islands.
Then in 1803, Federalists are discredited, the South turns solid Democrat-Republican when the Federalists make a deal for the islands for some of BNA
Also, since no money was spent on Louisiana, maybe the Federalists gather more support in New England and New York with internal improvements. Is it feasible for the Eerie canal to be started a decade sooner? If not, then at least more roads in these areas in the North could be started.
just some thoughts, very thought provoking timeline.
Will see if USA joins the Brits in another year or so when the Napoleonic Wars start back up again
If the USA doesn't buy Louisiana, she presumably doesn't buy the Spanish claim in Oregon.
OTL the USA obtained Spain's claim on Oregon Country in 1819 with the signing of the Adams-Onis treaty.
USA did not obtain the Spanish claim with the purchase of Louisiana from the French in 1803.
In this timeline, the USA will make its claim to Oregon when the Discovery Corps is commissioned. With no Adams-Onis, perhaps the USA makes a treaty with Spain coming up in the next couple of decades for Cuba and it is included. Or maybe like with Granada, USA backs Mexico when it breaks away and part of the deal is the USA gets Oregon. USA could also receive all of California in this deal as well.
Perhaps Zebulon Pike will be remembered more. He explored both North and South. His exploring in the North for the source of the Mississippi could be the catalyst for American interest in the Red River of the North area.
Ironically, he also explored the Red River between OTL Texas and Mexico and was captured by the Spanish and kept in Sante Fe. Perhaps in ITTL, he still explores the Texas region, still captured by Spanish.
His capture though sparks the next round of USA-Spain action.
In this round, USA supports Mexico Independence. USA gets Cuba and all of California including Baja along with Oregon.
Mexico gets OTL Mexico and New Mexico with Central America divided between Mexico and Granada. Eventually, New Mexico splits from Mexico and joins the USA for more protection against the Pueblos, Comanches, and Apaches.
Peru, Chile, and Rio de Plata either become independent or become British protectorates or maybe Peru becomes part of Granada.
Greater ties to Britain yields most of BNA to USA with an independent Quebec and the Maritimes that are pro-British.
Will be interesting if the USA is involved earlier in SA politics, if more stability can occur?
Like I said, very thought provoking timeline
USA did not obtain the Spanish claim with the purchase of Louisiana from the French in 1803.
In this timeline, the USA will make its claim to Oregon when the Discovery Corps is commissioned. With no Adams-Onis, perhaps the USA makes a treaty with Spain coming up in the next couple of decades for Cuba and it is included. Or maybe like with Granada, USA backs Mexico when it breaks away and part of the deal is the USA gets Oregon. USA could also receive all of California in this deal as well.
Perhaps Zebulon Pike will be remembered more. He explored both North and South. His exploring in the North for the source of the Mississippi could be the catalyst for American interest in the Red River of the North area.
Ironically, he also explored the Red River between OTL Texas and Mexico and was captured by the Spanish and kept in Sante Fe. Perhaps in ITTL, he still explores the Texas region, still captured by Spanish.
His capture though sparks the next round of USA-Spain action.
In this round, USA supports Mexico Independence. USA gets Cuba and all of California including Baja along with Oregon.
Mexico gets OTL Mexico and New Mexico with Central America divided between Mexico and Granada. Eventually, New Mexico splits from Mexico and joins the USA for more protection against the Pueblos, Comanches, and Apaches.
Peru, Chile, and Rio de Plata either become independent or become British protectorates or maybe Peru becomes part of Granada.
Greater ties to Britain yields most of BNA to USA with an independent Quebec and the Maritimes that are pro-British.
Will be interesting if the USA is involved earlier in SA politics, if more stability can occur?
Like I said, very thought provoking timeline
You're correct, my bad.
But I don't think Spain will relinquish its claim as quickly as you think. Spain looks like it's in a little better shape than OTL and a little leery of American expansion at the moment.
Go Republic of New Granada! Less screwed over Latin America than OTL! Whoot! 
With one colony gaining independence, and more US investment in kicking the Europeans out of the Americas, the Spanish will have to liberalize their rule fast or they will lose all the rest before they know what's happening.
With one colony gaining independence, and more US investment in kicking the Europeans out of the Americas, the Spanish will have to liberalize their rule fast or they will lose all the rest before they know what's happening.
But just like OTL, events in Europe will paralyze the Spaniards and grow the discontent in the New World.
As a new look, what if the Spanish sell a colony off? What if the USA buys California from the Spanish? I know Spain is proud and this probably would not happen, but who knows what butterflies might exist.
Now that Spain's eyes are open, maybe in the next few years it realizes that it cannot hold onto the colonies and sells off the areas where there is not as much population.
That and makes commonwealths out of the areas where there is a population base.
As a new look, what if the Spanish sell a colony off? What if the USA buys California from the Spanish? I know Spain is proud and this probably would not happen, but who knows what butterflies might exist.
Now that Spain's eyes are open, maybe in the next few years it realizes that it cannot hold onto the colonies and sells off the areas where there is not as much population.
That and makes commonwealths out of the areas where there is a population base.
It would appear that manifest destiny would grab hold a generation sooner. Which would be cool as slavery is not as near as white hot as it will get. But maybe more land leads to earlier slavery debate and fight.
Also, to combat new immigrants being Democrat-Republicans, maybe the Federalists send out recruiters to Ireland and Germany to get more Federalist immigrants to settle the west.
It would be awesome if the homestead act is enacted sooner. This could be a way for the Federalists to attract westerners to their ranks.
If Federalists win 1800, they could enact laws that help each section
Homestead act - West
Greater internal improvements - North East
Lower tarrifs - South
Federalists win in 1804 as well.
Basically, the Democratic-Republicans are the party that falls off and a new opposition party will emerge.
Also, to combat new immigrants being Democrat-Republicans, maybe the Federalists send out recruiters to Ireland and Germany to get more Federalist immigrants to settle the west.
It would be awesome if the homestead act is enacted sooner. This could be a way for the Federalists to attract westerners to their ranks.
If Federalists win 1800, they could enact laws that help each section
Homestead act - West
Greater internal improvements - North East
Lower tarrifs - South
Federalists win in 1804 as well.
Basically, the Democratic-Republicans are the party that falls off and a new opposition party will emerge.
It looks like the border of the old Province of Texas/New Philippines.
Also, just looking at it, but it seems like Oregon might become your Texas alternative in this world. That, or California. It's a long ways until the Gold Rush, but once it comes, there will be Americans coming. (unless, somehow, it's butterflied late enough that New Spain/etc would be able to take control.)
Considering New Granada's success, and if they manage to hold itself together, you might see the precedent set for successful, large states in the New World. Perhaps Central America can stay united... I don't see New Spain as a whole staying together, though. We'll see, in the end.
As for the US, it needs to sit down and figure out what to do with itself right now. How much did the military actions cost in monetary terms, and are they comparable with the amount the US paid for Louisiana in the first place? The sugar islands they received are rich, especially compared to much of the mainland US. Just receiving them alone, even if it forces the keeping of a navy to defend them locally, might be worth it by itself.
At this point, purchasing a large portion of BNA is not going to be worth it. They barely have the population to hold and secure their current territories. Just concentrate on the land they have, and later, without the 1812 war and any threat to Canada/Maritimes, they might be able to purchase a portion of the HBC's territory.
The Treaty of Havana indeed did not include Spain's claims to the Oregon country. This was intentional
Zebulon Pike will indeed be more important ITTL (although I think he deserves more recognition OTL too...)
I have plans for all of Latin America and BNA. You will just have to wait and see what they are.
The border of Texas ITTL is indeed the old New Spanish provincial border. I didn't realize New Spain had such interesting subdivisions. You think New Philippines would make a good state name?
The cost of the war is pretty much equivalent to the cost of Louisiana, yes. The sugar islands are really going to be a boost to the U.S. economy, no way in hell any southerner is going to let those be traded away.
Politics update is coming soon. I will say that John Adams did win the 1800 election (pretty obviously).
Zebulon Pike will indeed be more important ITTL (although I think he deserves more recognition OTL too...)
I have plans for all of Latin America and BNA. You will just have to wait and see what they are.
The border of Texas ITTL is indeed the old New Spanish provincial border. I didn't realize New Spain had such interesting subdivisions. You think New Philippines would make a good state name?
The cost of the war is pretty much equivalent to the cost of Louisiana, yes. The sugar islands are really going to be a boost to the U.S. economy, no way in hell any southerner is going to let those be traded away.
Politics update is coming soon. I will say that John Adams did win the 1800 election (pretty obviously).
Possibility of New Spain/Mexico completely going up in smoke about ten years earlier than expected.
Quite high i think.
Quite high i think.
Good points Luminous
I was looking at the USA 20 - 30 years down the road when industrialization occurs, Upper Canada would be a great boom to US economy when it becomes industrialized. You are correct, need to look at this USA in the here and now.
The small islands to Britain for Upper Canada, might be worth it. I threw in the Red River area to make it more interesting.
But correct, the safe bet is that the USA keeps those islands for now.
The Federalists use the increased wealth to keep a larger navy to defend them.
Maybe with these islands, the southerners will not mind if slavery is not extended to Texas or to Louisiana outside of its OTL state border.
Also with Caribbean possessions, the USA will want to remain on the good side of Britain for a while longer.
I was looking at the USA 20 - 30 years down the road when industrialization occurs, Upper Canada would be a great boom to US economy when it becomes industrialized. You are correct, need to look at this USA in the here and now.
The small islands to Britain for Upper Canada, might be worth it. I threw in the Red River area to make it more interesting.
But correct, the safe bet is that the USA keeps those islands for now.
The Federalists use the increased wealth to keep a larger navy to defend them.
Maybe with these islands, the southerners will not mind if slavery is not extended to Texas or to Louisiana outside of its OTL state border.
Also with Caribbean possessions, the USA will want to remain on the good side of Britain for a while longer.
The Treaty of Havana indeed did not include Spain's claims to the Oregon country. This was intentional
Zebulon Pike will indeed be more important ITTL (although I think he deserves more recognition OTL too...)
I have plans for all of Latin America and BNA. You will just have to wait and see what they are.
The border of Texas ITTL is indeed the old New Spanish provincial border. I didn't realize New Spain had such interesting subdivisions. You think New Philippines would make a good state name?
The cost of the war is pretty much equivalent to the cost of Louisiana, yes. The sugar islands are really going to be a boost to the U.S. economy, no way in hell any southerner is going to let those be traded away.
Politics update is coming soon. I will say that John Adams did win the 1800 election (pretty obviously).
To be honest, I don't think that it'd make a good name, unless for some odd reason the new immigrants come to associate with it. Considering how early the US has gained possession, I'd honestly think the name becomes a more anglicized version of Texas.
Actually, Britain may not want to do that. Most of Upper Canada would be populated by loyalists, and trading those for French and Dutch islands might be troublesome. Best to let the rebels deal with the rebellious islands. Of course, assistance might be provided if the circumstances are right.
We're about 40-50 years away (i think) from a collapse in the sugar market, assuming everything goes as per OTL. But still, so long as there's no War of 1812, and you forestall the creation of a united Canadian identity, and Britain sees it as more profitable to have a strong ally in the new world so they can focus on the East, then yes, I could see large portions of the Canadian Northwest going to the US. But that won't be for quite a while, and the US needs to fill up on its own.
Thing is, the US being invested in the Caribbean for any length of time will change its focus outright. Might be interesting to see what the US would try to influence there next. New Granada is strong enough, as long as it stays united, to be a player as well.