Alternative History Armoured Fighting Vehicles Part 2
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The Panther suffers from a number of issues that any long term use would require fixing, the transmission was only rated for something 10-15 tons less, the final drives tended to fail, and the engine is underpowered. So the amount of work necessary to keep it going is likely to be more trouble than its worth, which is why the French never modified theirs at all. The Tiger isn't quite as bad, but would be woefully out of date by the end of WWII, with the design not really able to handle much more unless it was drastically changed. And both the Tiger and Panther are quite large, so they may not be the most practical of vehicles to use anyway.
As for the T-34/85, the Yugoslavians had a reverse engineered copy of it, the Vozilo A, while the Vozilo B was a version of it mounting an American 90mm gun and mantlet off of one of the American tanks they were operating (IIRC either an M47 or an M36), and I believe they had several SPG projects based on both the Sherman and T-34/85, although not much is known about those projects. About the only thing I think would change if there was access to western technology would be guns/armament, as there's only so much you can do with the chassis, either as a tank itself or as a platform for an SPG.
Hey Clint good to hear from you and thanks.
An interesting proposition and one that I will give some thought to.
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I'll give it some thought and have a play.
However...As LiB says, there comes a point where the gain in retro-fitting / upgrading old hulls is outweighed by the practicality/maintenance/cost of keeping that hull serviceable and the degree of work needed to alter a hull that was designed to do something different. At that point it becomes cheaper and more practical to design something new. That is why the modern OTL world is not full of Pz IVs and Sherman tanks.
Sorry, nothing specific. My George Bradford books have a good selection of WW1, WW2 and Cold War armoured car line drawings. If one takes my fancy, I tend then to use the interweb to look it up to get the necessary details.
I'll give it some thought and have a play.
As LiB says, there comes a point where the gain in retro-fitting / upgrading old hulls is outweighed by the practicality/maintenance/cost of keeping that hull serviceable and the degree of work needed to alter a hull that was designed to do something different. At that point it becomes cheaper and more practical to design something new. That is why the modern OTL world is not full of Pz IVs and Sherman tanks.
Understand, after all as we say in my line of work we want to avoid overcapitalisation.
Looking forward to it.
Hey Clint good to hear from you and thanks.
An interesting proposition and one that I will give some thought to.
Having a think about this over a cup of coffee, I am inclined to go down the route that the development of ATGM tanks would rapidly see the demise of the traditional turret and the introduction of vertical launch ATGMs. The advantages are obvious - much lower profile, lighter weight, more capacity for defensive systems, faster reaction and engagement times.
Most modern vertical launch missiles have a vectored topple system which quickly flips the missile into horizontal flight after being ejected vertically. This toppling action also aligns the missile onto the correct azimuth for its attack vector.
For the IDF, I could see an AFV looking not unlike the Namur but with a battery of verticle launch ATGMs where the troop compartment would normally be.
There would still be a need for some sort of target acquisition system on the vehicle itself but this could be augmented by a data-linked remote system that could provide the necessary extended range coverage.
Just some initial thoughts - coffee's over...
Ok I got a new mess of Alt AFVs, light tanks today. Remember these are ground up designs in ITL verse they are for not trying to shoehorn shit.
Based off the Panzer I Hull with T-70 Turret
Main Armament: 3.7cm Pak 36
Secondary Armament: MG 18 TuG (Commander’s Hatch), Maxim Machine Gun (Co-axial)
Based off the Panzer 38(t)hull with T-80 Turret(No rivits)
Main Armament: 7.5cm KwK 37 (A Models), Flamethrower (B Models)
Secondary Armament: DShK (Commander’s Hatch), MG3 (Co-axial)
Based off the T-50
Main Armament: 5cm Pak 39 (A Model), 7.5cm KwK 37 (B Model), Flamethrower (C Model)
Secondary Armament: DShK (Commander’s Hatch), MG3 (Co-axial)
Based off the M24 Chaffee(Hull) with LTTB Turret
Main Armament: A light weight 7.5cm gun
Secondary Armament: DShK (Commander’s Hatch), MG3 (Co-axial)
Based off the M41 Walker Bulldog Hull with a Ru-251 Turret
Main Armament: 8cm PAW 800
Secondary Armament: DShK (Commander’s Hatch), MG3 (Co-axial)
Based off the Panzer I Hull with T-70 Turret
Main Armament: 3.7cm Pak 36
Secondary Armament: MG 18 TuG (Commander’s Hatch), Maxim Machine Gun (Co-axial)
Based off the Panzer 38(t)hull with T-80 Turret(No rivits)
Main Armament: 7.5cm KwK 37 (A Models), Flamethrower (B Models)
Secondary Armament: DShK (Commander’s Hatch), MG3 (Co-axial)
Based off the T-50
Main Armament: 5cm Pak 39 (A Model), 7.5cm KwK 37 (B Model), Flamethrower (C Model)
Secondary Armament: DShK (Commander’s Hatch), MG3 (Co-axial)
Based off the M24 Chaffee(Hull) with LTTB Turret
Main Armament: A light weight 7.5cm gun
Secondary Armament: DShK (Commander’s Hatch), MG3 (Co-axial)
Based off the M41 Walker Bulldog Hull with a Ru-251 Turret
Main Armament: 8cm PAW 800
Secondary Armament: DShK (Commander’s Hatch), MG3 (Co-axial)
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Having a think about this over a cup of coffee, I am inclined to go down the route that the development of ATGM tanks would rapidly see the demise of the traditional turret and the introduction of vertical launch ATGMs. The advantages are obvious - much lower profile, lighter weight, more capacity for defensive systems, faster reaction and engagement times.
Most modern vertical launch missiles have a vectored topple system which quickly flips the missile into horizontal flight after being ejected vertically. This toppling action also aligns the missile onto the correct azimuth for its attack vector.
For the IDF, I could see an AFV looking not unlike the Namur but with a battery of verticle launch ATGMs where the troop compartment would normally be.
There would still be a need for some sort of target acquisition system on the vehicle itself but this could be augmented by a data-linked remote system that could provide the necessary extended range coverage.
Just some initial thoughts - coffee's over...
It would need to be more than 12 launchers, and with a corridor for the driver to reach the rear door. The loader is possibly out. He has nothing to load, and the TC/gunner can work the radio. Without a turret, or ammo at the back, the driver can be moved to the back of the engine, with a corridor from his position to the rear door. Say a cross with a long corridor from the driver to the back being one axis, and the gunner/missile aimer and TC in the middle being the other, seperating 4 groups of missiles. That way each of the crew can move without bothering the other two. Above each crew there is a hatce - Gunner and TC have an MG, In the middle or next to the TC a mortar. The crew can leave through the hatches or through the rear door, so if the tank is flipped or falls back there is an escape either way.
That can work.
Careful, the LTTB turret in WoT is a fabrication, as no turret was ever designed or developed for the vehicle, only the chassis. And I'm not sure there are enough pictures and such of the Ru 251 to put its turret on the M41.
It could probably have handled the 7.5cm L/70, although I don't know how much more stable the suspension would have been. If you moved the turret back far enough and made the turret slightly larger, you might even be able to get the 7.5cm L/70 in the turret.
Given the pure numbers of AFVs I'm going to be creating for this TL I'm more than likely going to have to borrow things from WOT. Because I got the major nations who can field everything from armored car designs to heavies. Then you got the minor players who have lights, mediums, armored cars, and SPGs of their own. Its going to be a massive armored party with everyone and their brother and mother having tanks. But I'm open to ideas.
Dam except for the front glacis plate and the gun mantlet, they're pretty dam close. I may be changing the suspension to rear drive or swapping it out with a US suspension though and the character in BIDSG TL is some what knowledgeable about WWII weapons so he could use the pz.III/IV as the basis for building on.This is in Panzer Tracts 20-1:
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