Alexander The Great doesn't die in 323 BC
- Thread starter JP_Morgan
- Start date
I recognize that the web is a little mess
(to saying it moderately) and sometimes you are totally lost with so great number of data, but for example they have a list of consuls and dictators of Rome (including the period of Alexander)http://laguna.ellone-loire.net/obsidian/consuls.html
also information about Indian leaders of this period (and well after until nowdays) but for example the first are Mauryan emperors (including Chandragupta and his son)
http://laguna.ellone-loire.net/obsidian/india.html#India
and only to say at last: Hail Alexander, conqueror of persians and cartaghinians (and maybe romans and other italians peoples -samnites, etruscans...)!
Livy might dispute any contention that Alexander could comquer Rome...Iñaki said:I recognize that the web is a little mess
http://laguna.ellone-loire.net/obsidian/consuls.html
also information about Indian leaders of this period (and well after until nowdays) but for example the first are Mauryan emperors (including Chandragupta and his son)
http://laguna.ellone-loire.net/obsidian/india.html#India
and only to say at last: Hail Alexander, conqueror of persians and cartaghinians (and maybe romans and other italians peoples -samnites, etruscans...)!
I read the digression of Livy about a possible confrontation of Rome against Alexander, well Livy I think is too much optimistic and he hasn´t all the material that nowdays we have about Alexander.
First, the modern military historians considers Alexander an authentic military genius, a great leader with more imagination and flexibility than the roman military leaders in this time.
Also in the ATL of johnp he indicates that possibily the campaign in Italia will begin in the spring of 318 BC, well in 318 BC Rome is in a war for the supremacy of Central Italia against the samnites (a war that in OTL will finish in 304 BC) three years before in 321 Rome had suffered one of his more important defeats in the Furculae Caudinae against the samnites , so his military position in Central Italy is not sure, well when Alexander appears is possible that Rome and Samnites prefers to make peace to confront united the invasor but you know we are not talking about Pirrus of Epiro that in OTL won some battles against Rome and almost defeats Rome with less men that Alexander has in his army and in a year in which Rome is the great power in Central Italy, we are talking about Alexander that is far more great leader than Pirrus with far more men that Pirrus and in a year (318 BC) in which Rome is only one of the regional powers in the Central Italy fighting a hard war against the sammnites.
Logical conclusion: possibily the romans of the ATL of johnp could be a very hard fighting for Alexander to defeat them but at the end and unless that the luck or the gods prefer other thing Alexander will defeat them (and with more hard fighting the romans causes to Alexander is possible more enraged will be Alexander and when Rome falls well is possible it will the next city with Thebes and Persepolis than Alexander decides to burn an to sold its habitants as slaves to show all the italian people the dangerous thing that is resist too much to the mighty Alexander.
I think that a more interesting adversary because he has the power of a great kingdom supporting him is Chandragupta (named by some historians the "Indian Alexander) Magadha was an authentic great kingdom that dominates great part of the northern and central India with an authentic leader as Chandragupta it is truly the great adversary that could make weak the position of Alexander in some regions of his empire (the Indus satrapies)
An interesting way to compare the power of the Rome and Magadha is with this map, it shows the world in OTL in 323 BC (before the death of Alexander in OTL)
I am sorry is in Spanish but it shows clearly Rome (Roma), Magadha and the Alexander Empire they could be easily compared in territory with this map
surely the next segments of the ATL of "Alexander doesn´t die of johnp" will be very interesting.
The true is that I wait the next segments with great interest to see how will develop the campaign in Italy Alexander
and he hasn´t all the material that nowdays we have about Alexander.First, the modern military historians considers Alexander an authentic military genius, a great leader with more imagination and flexibility than the roman military leaders in this time.
Also in the ATL of johnp he indicates that possibily the campaign in Italia will begin in the spring of 318 BC, well in 318 BC Rome is in a war for the supremacy of Central Italia against the samnites (a war that in OTL will finish in 304 BC) three years before in 321 Rome had suffered one of his more important defeats in the Furculae Caudinae against the samnites , so his military position in Central Italy is not sure, well when Alexander appears is possible that Rome and Samnites prefers to make peace to confront united the invasor but you know we are not talking about Pirrus of Epiro that in OTL won some battles against Rome and almost defeats Rome with less men that Alexander has in his army and in a year in which Rome is the great power in Central Italy, we are talking about Alexander that is far more great leader than Pirrus with far more men that Pirrus and in a year (318 BC) in which Rome is only one of the regional powers in the Central Italy fighting a hard war against the sammnites.
Logical conclusion: possibily the romans of the ATL of johnp could be a very hard fighting for Alexander to defeat them but at the end and unless that the luck or the gods prefer other thing Alexander will defeat them (and with more hard fighting the romans causes to Alexander is possible more enraged will be Alexander and when Rome falls well is possible it will the next city with Thebes and Persepolis than Alexander decides to burn an to sold its habitants as slaves to show all the italian people the dangerous thing that is resist too much to the mighty Alexander.
I think that a more interesting adversary because he has the power of a great kingdom supporting him is Chandragupta (named by some historians the "Indian Alexander) Magadha was an authentic great kingdom that dominates great part of the northern and central India with an authentic leader as Chandragupta it is truly the great adversary that could make weak the position of Alexander in some regions of his empire (the Indus satrapies)
An interesting way to compare the power of the Rome and Magadha is with this map, it shows the world in OTL in 323 BC (before the death of Alexander in OTL)
I am sorry is in Spanish but it shows clearly Rome (Roma), Magadha and the Alexander Empire they could be easily compared in territory with this map
surely the next segments of the ATL of "Alexander doesn´t die of johnp" will be very interesting.
The true is that I wait the next segments with great interest to see how will develop the campaign in Italy Alexander
Baseball
Thanks for the map, it helps me picture where those Arab places are that Alexander conquers; amazing how small Carthage was, but I guess there wasn't much space betweent he Mediterranean and Sahara back then. I never really thought about how close the Sahara was.
Anyway, I was thinking he might want to attempt to take the "Pillars of Hercules," as that's clearly something big from Greek lore. However, it appears his conquest of Carthage will have done that, if he can subjugate the rest. Perhaps a neat visual would be for him to make a visit to the pillars once the area has been subdued, and a pronouncement throughout the kingdom that he has "risen to the level of our ancient forefathers in terms of labors, trials, and triumphs." Or, wasn't he as into ancient Greek lore as some? Would he be the kid to compare himself to a hero like Hercules?
Alexander vs. Chandragupta sounds like the heavyweight fight of the Millennium. Of course, he'd have to consolidate a little more, probably, and then raise more armies in Persia and Babylon so he would have fresh troops. Then...well, I hope johnp does this one just because it sounds like a great fight
Anyway, I was thinking he might want to attempt to take the "Pillars of Hercules," as that's clearly something big from Greek lore. However, it appears his conquest of Carthage will have done that, if he can subjugate the rest. Perhaps a neat visual would be for him to make a visit to the pillars once the area has been subdued, and a pronouncement throughout the kingdom that he has "risen to the level of our ancient forefathers in terms of labors, trials, and triumphs." Or, wasn't he as into ancient Greek lore as some? Would he be the kid to compare himself to a hero like Hercules?
Alexander vs. Chandragupta sounds like the heavyweight fight of the Millennium. Of course, he'd have to consolidate a little more, probably, and then raise more armies in Persia and Babylon so he would have fresh troops. Then...well, I hope johnp does this one just because it sounds like a great fight
Carthage campaign
Can anyone march a proper-sized army across Libya with the then-existing logistical technology? Also, could Carthage have been taken by surprise? Wouldn't they have spies to cover this sort of thing?
Can anyone march a proper-sized army across Libya with the then-existing logistical technology? Also, could Carthage have been taken by surprise? Wouldn't they have spies to cover this sort of thing?
And now, I'll post a personal experience, since there wasn't time for it last time.
November 17, 319 BC
Gray mist greeted Perdiccas as he rose out of camp and looked into the forest. It had all seemed so easy at first, and now they were fighting an often-unseen enemy. Damn that Alexander for sending him down here!
At first the campaign had gone quite well. Perdiccas' troops had marched to Napata and inflicted a decisive victory against the Kushite army. At Meroe, the capital, the fighting went even better, as the mixed-Macedonian and Egyptian force sacked the city, and capturing the king Nastasen, and captured and killed what a captured Kushite officer was roughly half of their men.
But after that, as the remainder scattered into forest, it had quickly gone south. Karkamani, a fairly high-ranking general, had convinced the scattered Kushite forces that they could not win in open-battle. As Perdicus left Selucus in charge of Meroe's occupation, with a little less than half of the army, and pursued the enemy forces, he started to become quite irritated at the fact that fair amounts of casualties were inflicted on them with small forces, and before more troops could be concentrated to defeat them, they would retreat. Perdiccas spent many long nights agonizing over the lack of a decisive battle.
One day, last October had been the worst. There had been heavy rains, and Perdiccas was unfortunately being led all over the place by Nubian forces. Than they had come under mass attack. The Kushites, hiding in bushes, had attacked them suddenly, inflicting heavy casualties, about a quarter of the army.
Perdiccas got fed up at this point. He had started burning down villages, and killing the people, while leaving small companies to hold down areas he thought were succesfully pacified. But of course, contact had been lost with a number of them particularly in the east.
And yet, Perdiccas was convinced victory would come in another month. The Kushite forces, as far as he could tell, were mostly concentrated in the south-east. Despite the fact that they were recruiting villagers, he thought most of the country would have a hard time attacking in the west, because he had burnt down a good part of the jungle there, and didn't expect anyone from there to attack him. His brain, however always felt like it was going to explode these days.
All of a sudden, from the edge of the camp Kushites started appearing out of nowhere. The mist was slowly clearing and he could tell that about half of them were not dressed in army clothes. And worst yet, they had come from the opposite bank of the river they were camped on. "No this cannot be happening!!" screamed Perdiccas. And then, they were attacked on the forest side by Kushite regulars. But the village people looked way more angry than the regulars. Armed with bows and spears, they had such venom in their look that Perdiccas's heart felt faint. He almost regretted destroying a lot of their country. But the weak feeling was replaced by hot rage, as he saw Kushites dismembering and castrating the corpses of the soldiers, who, being more professional, were starting to counterattack, and were killing about as many of the villagers, as the villagers were of them. And his army still slightly outnumbered them.
"Uncouth barbarians!!" Perdiccas's rage caused him to charge at the villagers himself, armed with his big sword. But about 30 seconds later, a villager who looked more like a monkey than a man impaled a spear through his chest. Perdiccas could feel feet tromping on him for a while, leaving greater pain, then, surprisingly, some of his men were escaping. And then... nothing.
Somewhere south of MeroeNovember 17, 319 BC
Gray mist greeted Perdiccas as he rose out of camp and looked into the forest. It had all seemed so easy at first, and now they were fighting an often-unseen enemy. Damn that Alexander for sending him down here!
At first the campaign had gone quite well. Perdiccas' troops had marched to Napata and inflicted a decisive victory against the Kushite army. At Meroe, the capital, the fighting went even better, as the mixed-Macedonian and Egyptian force sacked the city, and capturing the king Nastasen, and captured and killed what a captured Kushite officer was roughly half of their men.
But after that, as the remainder scattered into forest, it had quickly gone south. Karkamani, a fairly high-ranking general, had convinced the scattered Kushite forces that they could not win in open-battle. As Perdicus left Selucus in charge of Meroe's occupation, with a little less than half of the army, and pursued the enemy forces, he started to become quite irritated at the fact that fair amounts of casualties were inflicted on them with small forces, and before more troops could be concentrated to defeat them, they would retreat. Perdiccas spent many long nights agonizing over the lack of a decisive battle.
One day, last October had been the worst. There had been heavy rains, and Perdiccas was unfortunately being led all over the place by Nubian forces. Than they had come under mass attack. The Kushites, hiding in bushes, had attacked them suddenly, inflicting heavy casualties, about a quarter of the army.
Perdiccas got fed up at this point. He had started burning down villages, and killing the people, while leaving small companies to hold down areas he thought were succesfully pacified. But of course, contact had been lost with a number of them particularly in the east.
And yet, Perdiccas was convinced victory would come in another month. The Kushite forces, as far as he could tell, were mostly concentrated in the south-east. Despite the fact that they were recruiting villagers, he thought most of the country would have a hard time attacking in the west, because he had burnt down a good part of the jungle there, and didn't expect anyone from there to attack him. His brain, however always felt like it was going to explode these days.
All of a sudden, from the edge of the camp Kushites started appearing out of nowhere. The mist was slowly clearing and he could tell that about half of them were not dressed in army clothes. And worst yet, they had come from the opposite bank of the river they were camped on. "No this cannot be happening!!" screamed Perdiccas. And then, they were attacked on the forest side by Kushite regulars. But the village people looked way more angry than the regulars. Armed with bows and spears, they had such venom in their look that Perdiccas's heart felt faint. He almost regretted destroying a lot of their country. But the weak feeling was replaced by hot rage, as he saw Kushites dismembering and castrating the corpses of the soldiers, who, being more professional, were starting to counterattack, and were killing about as many of the villagers, as the villagers were of them. And his army still slightly outnumbered them.
"Uncouth barbarians!!" Perdiccas's rage caused him to charge at the villagers himself, armed with his big sword. But about 30 seconds later, a villager who looked more like a monkey than a man impaled a spear through his chest. Perdiccas could feel feet tromping on him for a while, leaving greater pain, then, surprisingly, some of his men were escaping. And then... nothing.
Baseball
neat. Now, how about getting Pytheas some credit in this TL. (HOpe the link works) He's very underrated as an explorer, and some of his information would be very intriguing - if Alexander ever has time to take off from conquering to learn how vast the world is.
It'd be cool to have a slight change on his last words - "There are too many worlds to conquer them all."
he really deserved a lot of credit, but some things he reported were just so incredible. Been kind of a favorite of mine since I first read about him. It'd be cool if Alexander sent him on some kind of mission of exploration.
It'd be cool to have a slight change on his last words - "There are too many worlds to conquer them all."
he really deserved a lot of credit, but some things he reported were just so incredible. Been kind of a favorite of mine since I first read about him. It'd be cool if Alexander sent him on some kind of mission of exploration.
I recognize that I have too doubts about this segment of johnp but after I remember some things in the history of Alexander and others that makes this manouver possible and a typical alexandrian manouver, the first is that in fact Alexander moves his army through a worse desert the desert of Gedrosia with for him worse conditions that this cross of the desert of Lybia (he decides cross Gedrosia with a not adequate level of supplies, food and water and with an army very sick after continuous battles in Persia and India, I suppose that in this case Alexander is better prepared with supplies and with an army better prepared and not sick), so this manouver is possible althoug possibily only to a man like Alexander -typical of the alexandrian character-.
Respect to the surprise, well any would think about the possibility to cross the desert except Alexander, also Carthage would wait the invassion by sea not by land (there is the desert) so it would be a total surprise to Cartaghe to see Alexander appearing by land from the desert (and I suppose that probably Alexander had spread rumours about a naval expedition to Carthaghe to occult the real invasion by land)
Iñaki said:
Thanks Inaki, though billbruno's crticisms are valid, it wasn't like I was trying to go for the most likely of events. I wanted Alexander to survive, whether it was more likely that he would fail.
By the way, if you have any criticisms, you can voice them. I like your China-Soviet alliance TL by the way.
Thanks, john , I expect to continue soon with Den Xiaoping not gains the power timeline, could be a new segment appears this week-end.
And respect to the criticisms I agree with you that they are necessary, in fact like billbruno I had doubts about the segment of Carthage but then I remember all the story about the cross of Gedrosia desert by Alexander.
The reality is that Alexander is one of the most heterodox character in the history, he was a military genius, a man that believes that he is a descendent of the gods, a man capable of build wonderful cities but too to destroy cities in a rage like Thebes and Persepolis, a man that is logical and flexible commanding his armies in battle, but also impetuous almost mad in making things very dangerous like his plans to conquer India when his army is very sick and in mutiny.
The logical of other conquerors like Julius Caesar, Darius I, Traianus and others is not the logical of Alexander.
To say the true Alexander only have one logic: the dictated by his mind and soul, and for ours his logic is very...err illogic.
So yes it could be that it is more likely to fail, but well when he begins the conquest of Persian Empire and after his projects of India the fact is that the logic thing is he should fail, but he didn´t fail in conquering Persia, so with Alexander possibily the only logic thing is that he had not die at 323BC a man like him well the logic is conquesting Carthage and Rome and Arabia and making a route by libian desert is very plaussible according to Alexandrian character.
The true is that I like a lot your timeline because it shows Alexander as a genius but sometimes as man whose rage is almost mad, a man with great projects but too with the capacity to destroy everyone opposed to his plans, you have made a good timeline that shows clearly the character, the soul of Alexander
But well there are limits too, for the moment I think according to alexander character the story is very plaussible although if in the future you says for example that Alexander is sailing to discover America in three ships, err.. surely there will a criticism because this is not plaussible even for Alexander
Well at last only say: waiting with interest the next installment
, I expect to continue soon with Den Xiaoping not gains the power timeline, could be a new segment appears this week-end.And respect to the criticisms I agree with you that they are necessary, in fact like billbruno I had doubts about the segment of Carthage but then I remember all the story about the cross of Gedrosia desert by Alexander.
The reality is that Alexander is one of the most heterodox character in the history, he was a military genius, a man that believes that he is a descendent of the gods, a man capable of build wonderful cities but too to destroy cities in a rage like Thebes and Persepolis, a man that is logical and flexible commanding his armies in battle, but also impetuous almost mad in making things very dangerous like his plans to conquer India when his army is very sick and in mutiny.
The logical of other conquerors like Julius Caesar, Darius I, Traianus and others is not the logical of Alexander.
To say the true Alexander only have one logic: the dictated by his mind and soul, and for ours his logic is very...err illogic.
So yes it could be that it is more likely to fail, but well when he begins the conquest of Persian Empire and after his projects of India the fact is that the logic thing is he should fail, but he didn´t fail in conquering Persia, so with Alexander possibily the only logic thing is that he had not die at 323BC a man like him well the logic is conquesting Carthage and Rome and Arabia and making a route by libian desert is very plaussible according to Alexandrian character.
The true is that I like a lot your timeline because it shows Alexander as a genius but sometimes as man whose rage is almost mad, a man with great projects but too with the capacity to destroy everyone opposed to his plans, you have made a good timeline that shows clearly the character, the soul of Alexander
But well there are limits too, for the moment I think according to alexander character the story is very plaussible although if in the future you says for example that Alexander is sailing to discover America in three ships, err.. surely there will a criticism because this is not plaussible even for Alexander
Well at last only say: waiting with interest the next installment
And also I see your post in Historia Mundi of Dominus asking about the two former roman timelines.
I add this two links to those two timelines. I like a lot Roman Timeline that I think is very good - I think Dominus sometimes is too much modest- (in this case is a timeline of an alternative roman empire so no republic but a lot of alternate emperors very interestings)
Saecolorum Romanorum is also good but I think is possible Dominus sees it more than a prove to Historia Mundi (because you can see that the style of Saecolorum and Historia Mundi is more or less the same -chronological date by date-).
So I give this two links for you enjoy with these two former works of Dominus
https://www.alternatehistory.com/Discussion/showthread.php?t=366 (Roman timeline)
https://www.alternatehistory.com/Discussion/showthread.php?t=10622 (Saecolorum Romanorum)
I add this two links to those two timelines. I like a lot Roman Timeline that I think is very good
- I think Dominus sometimes is too much modest- (in this case is a timeline of an alternative roman empire so no republic but a lot of alternate emperors very interestings)Saecolorum Romanorum is also good but I think is possible Dominus sees it more than a prove to Historia Mundi (because you can see that the style of Saecolorum and Historia Mundi is more or less the same -chronological date by date-).
So I give this two links for you enjoy with these two former works of Dominus
https://www.alternatehistory.com/Discussion/showthread.php?t=366 (Roman timeline)
https://www.alternatehistory.com/Discussion/showthread.php?t=10622 (Saecolorum Romanorum)
That actually raises a bit of a question: If Alexander goes to Italy is it as another nominally 'pan-Hellenic' opperation?
If it is then I think you will find that at this stage the Samnites are more of a threat to the Greek cities and are hence the logical target. So quite possibly we end up with the Macedonians and Romans in an alliance. Of cause after the Samnites are done in expect the Romans to follow...
It is possible, besides the romans have an alliance in this moment with greek city Neapolis (Naples)- well the things in Neapolis are a bit complicated, there was a pro-samnite and a pro-roman faction within the city and the city was initally occupied by a samnite garrison but the pro-roman faction demanded help to Rome and this defeats the samnite and his partidaries in Neapolis and occuppy the city aroun 327BC making after an alliance with Neapolis-
But with Alexander well... there are a lot of possibilities (because his special character):
For example there are some alternatives then:
1. An alliance of Alexander with romans against the samnites. After the joint war against samnites well depends of the character of Alexander could be alliance with Rome continues or could be Alexander demands the romans becoming vassals of Alexander Empire and please this nice city of Neapolis is Alexander direct possesion (and knowing the roman character is very possible that they refuses so war of Rome against Alexander)
2. Alexander decides that only him is going to save the Magna Graecia and well he is the conqueror of the known world and a son of the gods, etc.. so he decides to campaign against romans and samnites and these decides to make an alliance against Alexander, so war of Alexander againts Roman and samnites.
3. I dont know if is possible an alliance of samnites with Alexander against Rome, could be not or could be yes? (alexandrian character is so impulsive)
Hmm, all this possibilities of a campaign in Italy makes more interest the next segment of Johnp, I have a lot of curiosity to know how johnp will develop the alexander italian campaign