Alexander The Great doesn't die in 323 BC

JHPier said:
However since here two of his sons (Cassander and Iollas) are executed he might. Alexander would certainly fear he might. Look up why Parmenion was killed.

"He, however, gave Medius and a number of lesser figures lesser punishments by having their hands chopped off in public.." Umm, the Greeks were not much given to mutilation of citizens. Usually it was execution and/or confiscation of property

Thanks for pointing that out. I don't know much about Greek punishements, but now that I think about it, I don't even think Draco instituted any punishments like that. Come to think of it, Alexander would just as soon execute evrybody, regardless if they gave him information that was useless anyway. I can't say much about the property confiscation, but I think it would definately leave them wanting Alexander dead.
As for Antipater.. well I can't say much about that. I 'll say that he didn't though.
well in all likeley hood, the Greek revolt which started the Lamnian War IOTL at Alexanders death would have gone ahead anyway; it had been in planing for a while.
I only know about what happened to Alexander's empire in the foreign areas after his death, so I don't know much about Greece and Macedon except for who took over. I know about some revolt in Greece. after Alexander died Can anybody give me further details on that?
 
Wait, forget that last part. I looked up Antipater, but couldn't find anything on his perosnality. I found however that he defeated the revolt. Since I don't know what Anti[pater would really do if he found out his sons were killed, I'll just say for the sake of Alexander's empire holding together that he didn't. I'll find a way. I think Alexander will realize that relocating his capital would be a god idea, even though there's the problem about the Macedonians possibly being upset about the captal being moved out of their country.
 
I just figured out that Alexander could initially try to keep the emssage of his son's death from Antipater. Antipater will likely be executed as well when Alexander returns to Macedon. I'll mention exactly what happens in the next installemnt, don't worry
 
[Just below is the last absolute change to the style of the telling of events, I swear. I know what I'm doing. By the way, while reading on Antipater, I saw a rumor that mentioned he was instigated to kill Alexander by Aristotle. Anybody know anthing about that?]

The Life Of Alexander the Great
Ptolemy Agrippa
published 275 BC

After a month or so, Demetrius arrived in Tyre, with the news that the Nabataens had submitted to Alexander's authority, despite that the army had been subjected to stiff hit-and run attacks before marching on main cities like Petra. Most of the army had been left to occupy Nabatae. A messenger arrived at the same time, saying the Caspian Sea fleet had only found lands inhabited by uncouth barbarians, who had nearly wiped the landing party out.
Though Alexander was troubled by this, he was much more concerned about Antipater, whom he had expected to meet at Babylon instead of his sons.

Chapter 9: Antipater, and the Reconquest of Greece


Alexander had known that Antipater had had bad relations with Olympias, who had written letters to Alexander, saying that Antipater was formenting discord. Alexander had asked Antipater to show up in Babylon to answer these charges. When Antipater sent his son Cassander instead, it convinced Alexander that his mother had not been lying.
After Cassander's and Iollas' execution, Alexander had initially sent messengers telling Craterus to capture Antipater. By the time Craterus got it, however, a revolt had broken out in Greece, known as the Lamian War, and Craterus decided this threat had to be contained before going off and arresting him. He assembled a fleet at Cilicia. In the summer of 322BC, Alexander reached him, and the revolt was mostly defeated a couple of months later at the battle of Crannon. There were still some problems with the Aetolians, but Alexander was finally able to get Antipater to meet him for a council of war. Antipater, however, suspected a trap, since he had found out not too long ago that his sons were dead, and fled.
Figuring out that the Aetolians would not ally with him, and knowing that Alexander had the stronger position, Antipater fled north and west. He was quickly caught, though by a party Alexander sent after him, proving that the weak and cowardly can never escape justice. Craterus was left to take care of the Aetolians, while Alexander dealt with Antipater personally...​
 
Northern Aetolia
322 BC

"I tell you, I did not tell Cassander to arrange your murder!" shouted Antipater. "Why, in the name of Zeus would you send him then?!" bellowed Alexander twice as loud.
Antipater was exsaperated. Though he would have gladly have Alexander assasinated when he found out his sons were dead, the Lamian War had distracted him from that. And Craterus kept people he sent from leaving the country.
But the fact remained that Antipater never would have approved of Alexander's murder otherwise, Cassander and Iollas had exceeded his instructions, and decided to get rid of the potential threat. He ought to have realized that there were many soldiers and officers in the Macedonian army loyal to Alexander, thus ensuring he would be found out.
But Antipater knew there was no arguing with Alexander. Once he had made up his mind about something, he could not be argued with. "My King, I am forever loyal to you! I would never betray you in such a way!" "LIAR!!!" screamed Alexander at the top of his lungs.
At last, Alexander grew tired of arguing with Antipater and said. "You have obviously wanted to have me killed, so I wouldn't check up on the situation here. Medius said that Cassander had told them all I needed to be taken care of. I still killed him,[1] just as I am about to kill you. And with that, Alexander waved a hand for a man to come forward with poison. Antipater did not resist as his mouth was forced open, and the poison went down into his throat. Shortly, Antipater knew no more

[1] Sorry, I couldn't edit the previous installment again, but I realized that Alexander would just execute everybody, since another poster said the Greeks weren't known for dismemberment
 
Hello, I see this last post

Originally posted by johnp
Hey! What is it with the lack of feeedback. I don't ubderstand

Well, don´t worry sometimes happen these things, I suppose (I am newbie too) that new timelines are opening in the forum, a lot of competence, so don´t worry, your timeline is good:) and well some feedback for my part (sorry for my english I am from Spain), if I have understood well in this timeline Alexander is becoming more and more paranoid (well he is on right with this big conspiration against him) against greeks and macedons (save exceptions), so is very possible that his empire become more and more persian influenced and this could cause interesting consecuences in the future, but first of all, with all this conspirations against him and the reluctance of greeks and macedons against him, Alexander needs quick some campaigns:
1. Against Carthage in defense of the sicilian greek cities
2. Against different italian little powers (Latin League and Samnites included) in deffense of Magna Graecia.

With this campaigns he could win some respect between the greeks and macedons as conqueror and liberator (also the rulers of Syracuse -I remember that they were or despots or kings- could be more comprensive to the pseudopersian and despotic way of ruling of Alexander -(and he is becoming more and more paranoid) than the greeks of Helade and the macedonians)

So, please continue, this is an interesting timeline:)
 
Iñaki said:
Hello, I see this last post



Well, don´t worry sometimes happen these things, I suppose (I am newbie too) that new timelines are opening in the forum, a lot of competence, so don´t worry, your timeline is good:) and well some feedback for my part (sorry for my english I am from Spain), if I have understood well in this timeline Alexander is becoming more and more paranoid (well he is on right with this big conspiration against him) against greeks and macedons (save exceptions), so is very possible that his empire become more and more persian influenced and this could cause interesting consecuences in the future, but first of all, with all this conspirations against him and the reluctance of greeks and macedons against him, Alexander needs quick some campaigns:
1. Against Carthage in defense of the sicilian greek cities
2. Against different italian little powers (Latin League and Samnites included) in deffense of Magna Graecia.

With this campaigns he could win some respect between the greeks and macedons as conqueror and liberator (also the rulers of Syracuse -I remember that they were or despots or kings- could be more comprensive to the pseudopersian and despotic way of ruling of Alexander -(and he is becoming more and more paranoid) than the greeks of Helade and the macedonians)

So, please continue, this is an interesting timeline:)

It's more that there was more comments before. But yeah, ther ehas been a more lot competition lately.

As for your Greek city defense idea,... well I think Alexander would settle down for at least a few years to consolidate his empire. Don't worry though, I'll mention something about a campaign against Carthage in the next chapter.

I'm also curious, can you or anyone else give some ways Alexander might tax the populace, because I know nothing about the Greek and Macedon economic systems. Anything on that note would be greatly appreciated, because ancient economics aren't my thing.
 
Scarecrow said:
well in all likeley hood, the Greek revolt which started the Lamnian War IOTL at Alexanders death would have gone ahead anyway; it had been in planing for a while.

Alexander may be able to conquor Arabia, even Carthage and Rome; but the true test will come when he dies, lets say in 280BC, and his son Alexander IV takes the throne. Alex IV would have lived in his fathers shadow all his life, there would be a demand for AlexIV to out do his father: perhaps Alex IV would try to attack India?

of course by about this time the Celts start to appear, and Alex will have to fight the invaders in Anatolia and his European lands.

This all depends on how loyal his fathers Generals are to him; although by this stage many of Alexander IV's generals would be Persian. Perhaps Macedon could rise in revolt led by Antipater, and Alex IV would be left ruling a Persian oriented Empire...

Alexander actually campagined against the Celts where comes the famous quote by a Celtic chieftan when A asked him what he and his warriors feared most - 'That the sky might fall', which apparently impressed A very much. He also must gave impressed the Celts because during his lifetime he had no trouble from the Celtic tribes. If he had a son who bore the same name the Celts may not be as troublesome as in OTL.

Alex IV is interesting since he would command the loyalty of the Persians as King of Kings and his mothers tribal clans from Bactria as well as the Macedonians. No general came close to Alex aura and it is difficult to see the Macedonians rising in revolt against a legimate son of his.
 
Originally posted by johnp
I'm also curious, can you or anyone else give some ways Alexander might tax the populace, because I know nothing about the Greek and Macedon economic systems. Anything on that note would be greatly appreciated, because ancient economics aren't my thing.

Well in fact, my knowledge about Ancient economy is poor, but well I will attempt to help a little:)

First of all you have to think that Alexander is commanding now a great Empire and that he is in these moments more pseudopersian than macedon, so he want to govern his empire as King of Kings, possibily in Macedon and greece to prevent problems there will a different economic taxation and organization, in the rest of the empire but the economic system will remain the same more or less that in times of Darius (historically Alexander presented himself as the succesor of Darius, after defeating him, and he continues using the system of satrapies of the persians).

Unfortunately I have found few information in Internet about tax in the ancient greece and persia, referent to Persia these words of an article of American Journal of economics and sociology:

"In c. 519 BC, Darius established a new system of state taxes," described as follows: "The land was precisely measured in parasangs and classified according to crops cultivated or even according to the size of the harvest (Herod. VI, 42). All the satrapies were obliged to pay taxes in silver; these taxes had been strictly set for each province and established on the basis of cultivated land and its fertility, as calculated by the average harvest yield for several years in accordance with the cadastres for individual provinces. We have examples of such cadastral documents from (Persian-administered) Babylonia, which contain the number of fruit trees, the kinds of crops, and the extent of arable land."

My books of history that I have in my home talks very few about economics (and well I have a lot of books in little space, so it is an authentic mess to search some books) but I found some interesting things about taxation but this refers to Roman Empire (this could serve you because in this case Romans and Alexander have the same problems: tax a big empire; also I think the differences between roman taxation and the possible Alexander Empire taxation would be few, there would far more similarities than differences):

Taxation in Roman Empire (that more or less I think is the same in the great ancient greco-roman empires -Alexander, Diadocs, Romans..-):

-Indirect taxes: 1.Tax about selling goods in general (the romans apply the 1 per cent to the sold of goods)

2.Tax about sold of slaves (the romans apply the four per cent to this kind of sold)

3. Tax about the herencies ( 5 per cent applied for the romans).

4. Tax about the goods in transit (named portorium by the romans) , the romans aply the 2-2,5 per cent of the value of the goods in transit.


Direct taxes: tax about the products of the land (is the tax mentioned by Darius -land measures in parasangs-, the roman name is tributum solis) first as Darius and the romans did a census in each province is made about each propiety how many quantity of land products have, the cadastre, (wine, sheeps, vegetables, ....) after is applied these tax.

For the romans this tax is the most important and the second more important is the named tributum capitis, this is the normal tax that all the free persons pays, an example in the roman province of Siria (this suppose that there are differences according to the traditions, wealth of the province and the persons that inhabit it) all the women from the 12 years old and the men from 14 years old to 65 years old pay this tax that represents the 1 per cent of their patrimony.

I hope this can help you a little:)

And continue please I wait with interest the next installment (and the Carthage campaign):)
 
Keep going I want to hear how he conquer's Carthage,The Romans and how he returns to India and later to find China. So when do they all convert ot buhdisim.Is it a requirement that everyone convert to it or is there religious toleration.
 
meninwhite said:
Keep going I want to hear how he conquer's Carthage,The Romans and how he returns to India and later to find China. So when do they all convert ot buhdisim.Is it a requirement that everyone convert to it or is there religious toleration.

Truth be told, i'm not exactly sure what you said. Who exactly converts to Buddhism are you talking about? Everybody? That doesn't happen, but about 10 percent of the population in the rest of the empire does convert.
And about conquering India, I'd expect that to be pretty hard, and I think China's a little out of reach in his lifetime. I'm not expecting him to live to long past seventy, since he's likely tired from all his campaigning. I'll need more time to think
 
johnp said:
Truth be told, i'm not exactly sure what you said. Who exactly converts to Buddhism are you talking about? Everybody? That doesn't happen, but about 10 percent of the population in the rest of the empire does convert.
And about conquering India, I'd expect that to be pretty hard, and I think China's a little out of reach in his lifetime. I'm not expecting him to live to long past seventy, since he's likely tired from all his campaigning. I'll need more time to think
meninwhite is what we'd like to call an optimist.
 
Originally posted by johnp
And about conquering India, I'd expect that to be pretty hard,

Very probable, also to more or less 320 BC Chandragupta founded the Maurya Dinasty in Magadha, it could be an interesting adversary for Alexander and a true headache for the vassal indian kings allied with Alexander (Poros for example) and the greek satraps of the Indus ( Satrapies of High Indus and Low Indus).

So while Alexander begins his campaign against Carthage, he could find that suddenly have new problems in the Indus caused by a guy named Chandragupta.

So is possible that this ATL we have an interesting duel of Alexander vs Chandragupta:cool:
 
Iñaki said:
Very probable, also to more or less 320 BC Chandragupta founded the Maurya Dinasty in Magadha, it could be an interesting adversary for Alexander and a true headache for the vassal indian kings allied with Alexander (Poros for example) and the greek satraps of the Indus ( Satrapies of High Indus and Low Indus).

So while Alexander begins his campaign against Carthage, he could find that suddenly have new problems in the Indus caused by a guy named Chandragupta.

So is possible that this ATL we have an interesting duel of Alexander vs Chandragupta:cool:

Nice one. I might even make a mention of "troubles in the east", but that's not a for sure.
 
the Great Macedonian Empire
Diogenes Erothemes[1]
published 113 BC


And finally, after nearly 20 years of military campaigns, Alexander returned home. He had to get to the tough work of consolidaqting his empire.

First, he had to come up with an effective taxation system for his vast lands. He mostly used the system of the Persian Empire, keeping the silver taxes based on the amount of land the satraps being taxed had held. Based on a number of his advisors' advice, however, he instituted a number of original taxes, designed to keep control over the ever-large territory.

First, there were indirect taxes, which taxed the amount of goods, and direct taxes which taxed the propiety of how many land products have, they had, which included livestock and crops. A slave tax was added later, because of the continiunuing need for econimic control over the empire.

He also instituted a messenger system similar to the eyes and ears of King Darius I, where messengers went on surprise inspection tours, and reported on whether the satraps looked up to no good

This system helped uncover a plot in Arabia to throw out leaders loyal to Alexander.Unfortunately, it did not help when a messenger disappeared in the province of Parthia. About a month after he was supposed to have returned, Bad news arose in the spring of 319 BC, when yet another revolt by Persian satraps succeded in spreading throughout much the east-central part of the country. Luckily, quick action by Antigonus in the east crushed it in a few months. The Bactrians also helped, but alone they could not have helped the loyal satrapies much, because news of a great ruler out of India caused the army commander to order the pass between Bactria and India[2] fortified with most of the Bactrian corps. Alexander would later hear about this, and dispatched Craterus to help Antigonus, who had went into Bactria when hearing about this. Needless to see, the messengers always had bodyguards, and scouts to warn them of any sudden changes, from then on.
This latest revolt convinced Alexander that some of the Persian satraps could not recognognize a king nearly a thousand miles away. He decided that the capital should be moved closer to where they lived, and thought on Babylon. This raised a howl of protest from none less than Olympias, who said the capital should remain in Greek lands and Perdiccas, a general who had fought with Alexander in Persia, said it would be traitorous to move it to the land of their recent enemies. Alexander almost killed him, but he was cautioned by his advisors that the capital should also have access to Greece. He then decided on Tyre. Depite having more of liking for Alexandria, Egypt, he knew the capital should be closer to the Persians.
So finally it was decided that Alexander would only reside in Babylon for the winter, since he still felt the need for as close as contact with Persia as possible, to discourage the revolt. Tyre would be the capital for the rest of the year. Pella would remain as the ceremonial capital.
Meanwhile, Alexander having only recently fought off a challenge, was in danger of revolt in his homeland and in Greece. There needed to be a way to score a victory, that would keep his enemies from causing trouble. And that would arrive on June 12, 319 BC, when an emissary from Syracuse arrived in Pella, as Alexander was about to depart for Egypt, to remind the people their that their pharoah still existed. He had heard of this great conquring king, and he requested aid in mopping up the Carthagnian settlements on Sicily. Alexander agreed to this, but he decided to use this opportunity to take Carthage for himself. He agreed to send a small amount of troops in aid, and gave them permission to attack when they wished.

So, Alexander decided to sail for Egypt. On July 20, he arrived in Alexandria, to the great cheers of the Egyptian people. The Egyptians had of course heard of Alexander's great victories, and been waiting practically since the dawn of time for him to show up. There were celebrations for several days,as Alexander traveled to all the major Egyptian towns, and participated in religious ceremonies at the time. Needless to say, this did not make generals like Perdiccas happy. Luckily, an Egyptian officer in Thebes mentioned the kingdom of Kush to the South. Alexander then sent Perdiccas south to bring this land under the king's sovreignty. Perdiccas would go on to get killed in a guerilla fight 4 months later.
Taking some Egyptian troops with him, which brought the total of his army to about 25, 000 men. he got more reinforcements in Cyrenaica. He arrived near Carthage on August 9 Near Carthage, he saw the city was walled, and could see from far off, so he decided to look for natives who would help in exchange for a vassal kingdom. He then was able to enlist the support of the local tribe of Numidians, the Massyli agaisnt the Carthagnians. The Massaesyli, to the west, though, refused.
Realizing that the Massaesyli would likely notify the Carthagnians, Alexander decided to attack Carthage almost immidiately. He had some crude siege machines constructed, and proceeded to surround the city. The Massaaesyli, who tried to arrive to defend Carthage, were attacked by the Massyli. The Carthagnians fired arrows to try to distract the Massili. At this point, Alexander showed up and effectively surrounded the city. The Carthagnians, enraged, were now caught in a trap. They would have sent a message to Hamilcar[3], who had been sent to Sicily, to defend against the attack of their lands there. But a few ships from Alexandria were blocking the harbor, so no one could get in or out.
The Massyli line was close to breaking at this point, so Alexander sent a number of companies under Demetrius to keep the Carthagnians from scattering the Massyli. He himself made a roundabout attack on the Massaesyli, and succeded in routing them. The remainder was taken prisoner. As he then reinforced the weak Massyli line, he was hit by an arrow in the side of the chest. Alexander was then rushed into camp to deaprately have the arrow removed, and close the wound. At one point, Alexander thought he saw a white light, but luckily he happened to have good doctors, and he eventually recovered.
Despite what seemed like a minor victory, Carthage were covinced they were eventually doomed, so they decided to go down fighting with a battle for the ages. A large consignment of troops then charged out of the city at the west line. Surprisingly enough, it was making it's way through holes in the Macedonian-Massyli line. But Ptolemy brought some extra troops from the south of the city, and crushed the Cathagnians. Unfotunately for the Carhagnians, this in the end only ended up shortening the siege. On November 13, Carthage surrendered. Leaving a company of troops there, Alexander then sailed for Sicily, where the sofetim or kings told him there was still a Carthgnian armyin Siciily. Alexander, after ensuring his control of Carthage, and leaving a Numidian vassal kingsdom decided to sail for Sicily.

Questions? Comments? Complaints?!:eek:
 
Happy to see this timeline continuing:)

Err,.. It seems that [1] [2]... no text in the end, I suppose you forget to make the notes.

Aaahh! Delenda is Carthage! well in this case surrendered, better luck in this case because it seems Alexander is not enraged and not destroy the city (uf, good luck for Carthage! remember Thebes and Persepolis Alexander is a terrible man when his rage begins)

Some help: I don´t know if Alexander after campaigning in Sicily will continue in Italy but I give you some information about Italy situation.

In these moments sammnites and romans are in war (The war began in 326 BC) I add this map about this war and it shows the roman and sammnite territory during the period 326-304 BC, it could be interesting for you in a possible campaign of Alexander in Italia.

RomeSammnites.jpg


Also, I add this link to the web of Regnal Chronologies, I don´t know if you know this web but is absolutely wonderful to know who governs in which period in each region and nation (including the ancient nations) it could be interesting for you http://laguna.ellone-loire.net/obsidian/regindex.html

I hope this can help you:)

RomeSammnites.jpg
 
And another help this map shows the situation in central italy about the fundation of roman and latin (the allies of Rome) colonies during the period 500-second century BC.

This shows with more detail the roman and latin cities and colonies that exists in the time of Alexander (easy assume we are in 319BC for example so you can see at this time what colonies are yet founded because the number next by the name of the colonie is the year that it was founded)

Dark green is territory of latin colonies, brown is roman territory (but the data of the colours is of 254 BC or later so the important data are the colonies and cities and his year of foundation, for example Cales was founded in 334 so in the times of Alexander it exists is a latin colonies).

The little squares are roman colonies, the circles is latin colonies.

Different kind of circles and squares is because it is the different period founded.

The map is from "The Times Atlas of World History" (Spanish edition)

The former map (Samnites and Roman war) is from Pinguin Atlas of World History volume 1.

Romelatin.jpg

And continue with this timeline, it is very interesting:cool:

Romelatin.jpg
 
Yes, I was in a hurry and I didn't remember the footnotes. Number 1 doesn't really mean anything, but 2 is referring to the fact that Hannibal, like many other Carthgnian names, is common.

Thanks a whole lot for the maps by the way. It'll be great help in determining the eventual campaign in Italy. It would probably be as the spring of 318BC opens, since Alexander is not the sort to walk away from a another possible conqueree.[I made that up, for lack of ability to think of anything else ]

That link should help too. I 'll look at at it when I have the time, but India is the only real problem at this time. I should retcon about the Indus Valley, and make a revision to that section. Chandragupta invaded Bactria in OTL because there was a power vacaum. But there'll definately be a fight for the Indus Valley, but don't expect to hear much about it in the next installment.

Any of you lurkers have anything to say? I'm open to criticism
 
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