A Glorious Union or America: the New Sparta

[TFSmith121]

Sherman, Schofield, and Upton

I always found the numbering of US regular army units rather dull/sterile. I think I may have to save my enthusiasm for military flair and fun naming conventions for our fleeting glimpses of the Mexican Army.

Yes. I think you have hit on the major problem. Although it looked like the British regimental system was very impressive that was perhaps the illusion of small wars. The era of the effectiveness of regimental espirit de corps is coming to an end in the next 50 years of TTL (it will still have an effect in small actions but in the era of mass mobilization I agree it cannot be a major battle winning factor). It is probably already coming to an end in the next few decades in Europe.

There will still be a Cardwell Reforms equivalent for the postbellum US army but it will have more to do with education, staff corps, equipment first and perhaps doctrine second. I suspect my organisation reforms will revolve around numbers and a more structured militia...

Sherman, Schofield, and Upton basically were among those who created what became the Command & General Staff College, reorganized the branch schools, and the War College. I think they have all done well in your story this far, correct?

Best,

 

[TheKnightIrish]

Sherman, Schofield, and Upton basically were among those who created what became the Commander & General Staff College, reorganized the branch schools, and the War College. I think they have all done well in your story this far, correct?

Best,

Actually Sherman, now one armed, is effectively Grant's chief of staff. He has not risen to his OTL heights. Schofield is an unpopular character having made enemies in Missouri and backbiting good old George Thomas. Schofield will struggle to rise further in the army. Upton only reached the rank of general late in the war.

Generally speaking such reforms as come are unlikely to come from these three...

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

Actually Sherman, now one armed, is effectively Grant's chief of staff. He has not risen to his OTL heights. Schofield is an unpopular character having made enemies in Missouri and backbiting good old George Thomas. Schofield will struggle to rise further in the army. Upton only reached the rank of general late in the war.

Generally speaking such reforms as come are unlikely to come from these three...

They still might come from Sherman, him having been a teacher in Louisiana for a brief tenure before the war.

 

[Seraph]

Something else that I heard happen in OTL that might not happen in this OTL
That the Union switched from the Line formation to a looser skirmisher formation later on in the war.

 

[TFSmith121]

Actually, Sherman would be well-placed to do so;

Actually Sherman, now one armed, is effectively Grant's chief of staff. He has not risen to his OTL heights. Schofield is an unpopular character having made enemies in Missouri and backbiting good old George Thomas. Schofield will struggle to rise further in the army. Upton only reached the rank of general late in the war.

Generally speaking such reforms as come are unlikely to come from these three...

Actually, Sherman would be well-placed to do so; Kearny (born 1815) is general-in-chief, right? With Grant (1822) as the "second" general in the US after Kearny, then USG replaces Phil, and Sherman (born 1820) follows; Sheridan (1831) is likely sucessor to Sherman. Then there might be a jump to Ames, Upton, Wilson, Merritt, et al.

Best,

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

Actually, Sherman would be well-placed to do so; Kearny (born 1815) is general-in-chief, right? With Grant (1822) as the "second" general in the US after Kearny, then USG replaces Phil, and Sherman (born 1820) follows; Sheridan (1831) is likely sucessor to Sherman. Then there might be a jump to Ames, Upton, Wilson, Merritt, et al.

Best,

You do know that people like Reynolds is still alive right. And Hancock.....i mean, its not just the Western Generals who have prospered.

Plus, i am pretty sure that Sheridan is dead, is he not? "We will drown Sheridan" from an earlier chapter somewhere.

 

[TFSmith121]

Reynolds and Hancock were both contemporaries

You do know that people like Reynolds is still alive right. And Hancock.....i mean, its not just the Western Generals who have prospered.

Plus, i am pretty sure that Sheridan is dead, is he not? "We will drown Sheridan" from an earlier chapter somewhere.

Reynolds (b. 1820) and Hancock (1824) were both contemporaries of Sherman (1820) and Grant (1822); I was thinking more of Sheridan as the likely standout of the 1830s generation, along with (perhaps) WR Terrill.

Best,

 

[Alonna]

You do know that people like Reynolds is still alive right. And Hancock.....i mean, its not just the Western Generals who have prospered.

Plus, i am pretty sure that Sheridan is dead, is he not? "We will drown Sheridan" from an earlier chapter somewhere.

Sheridan is dead. He was killed during Chickamauga here.

 

[TheKnightIrish]

In fact in my TL it is the Eastern Generals who prosper with several sent west in senior roles like Hooker.

After Phil Kearny, there is John F. Reynolds, Ulysses Grant, Joseph Hooker, John J. Peck, Isaac Peace Rodman, George Thomas, Winfield S. Hancock etc.

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

In fact in my TL it is the Eastern Generals who prosper with several sent west in senior roles like Hooker.

After Phil Kearny, there is John F. Reynolds, Ulysses Grant, Joseph Hooker, John J. Peck, Isaac Peace Rodman, George Thomas, Winfield S. Hancock etc.

Its weird, but i more or less see that Grant is more in line with Kearny than Reynolds would be. Especially for General in chief of the Arm of the United States for when Kearny is President. I can see Reynolds as perhaps a Peacetime general, but Grant just stick out as he is at home in the army, and it is where he does his best work (if not that, the man should be an author/newspaper man). and Given that Grant has Sherman as his CoS, it just seems more likely to me.

and hooker would only see such a position for advancement for his own selfish reasons.

 

[WXL1815]

Its weird, but i more or less see that Grant is more in line with Kearny than Reynolds would be. Especially for General in chief of the Arm of the United States for when Kearny is President. I can see Reynolds as perhaps a Peacetime general, but Grant just stick out as he is at home in the army, and it is where he does his best work (if not that, the man should be an author/newspaper man). and Given that Grant has Sherman as his CoS, it just seems more likely to me.

and hooker would only see such a position for advancement for his own selfish reasons.

I duuno. Grant was not even in the regular army at the outbreak. When did he accept permanent rank in the army? Reynolds was a Lieutenant Colonel at the outbreak. Also might not Grant be tarred with the surprise at Four Armies and the failure to catch Magruder. Also might not Hooker's star be in the ascendant in the west - the man who saved Grant at the Four Armi

 

[TheKnightIrish]

I feel like a challenge has been made: how many Major Generals and Brigadier Generals are there at the end of the war and who are they, I will mull that over. There will certainly be more permanent vacancies at this level under Kearny and the expanded army. I must mull them over before deciding.

I am also intrigued by the Grant question - When was he granted his regular army rank? What was it originally?

If I am right he was made Major-General (volunteers) effective from 16th February 1862. His first regular rank was Major-General (regulars) effective from 4th July 1863. That would suggest he was granted it for Vicksburg and thus might expect a similar reward in TTL.

In a similar vein Sherman gets his first regular rank of brigadier general (regulars) effective from 4 July 1863 as well. He makes major-general (regulars) from 12 August 1864. So in TTL he is likely to have made Brigadier General at least.

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

hmm. Looking at the Civil War High Commands book by David J Eicher, Grant looks to be a Brigadier General on 17 May 1861, guessing its a brevet or volunteer position because he is a colonel of the 21st Illinois infantry on 15 June 1861.

then , if you go through wikipedia (thank god for footnotes) you have

• Brevet Second Lieutenant, USA - July 1843
• Second Lieutenant, USA - September 1845
• First Lieutenant, USA - September 1847
• Captain, USA - August 1853
• Colonel of Volunteers - 17 June 1861
• Brigadier General of Volunteers - 31 July 1861 (date of rank 17 May)
• Major General of Volunteers - 16 February 1862
• Major General, USA - 4 July 1863
• Lieutenant General, USA - 2 March 1864
• General, USA - 25 July 1866

Seems to not have been made Brigadier General of the regulars. Even in the Book i cannot find it.

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

I duuno. Grant was not even in the regular army at the outbreak. When did he accept permanent rank in the army? Reynolds was a Lieutenant Colonel at the outbreak. Also might not Grant be tarred with the surprise at Four Armies and the failure to catch Magruder. Also might not Hooker's star be in the ascendant in the west - the man who saved Grant at the Four Armi

Kearny placed Grant in command over Hooker when he visited. that has to mean something for Kearny personally and professionally especially when you snub someone who is a good friend relationship that Hooker-Kearney had.

 

[TheKnightIrish]

United States Regulars: General Officers​

General of the Army
Philip Kearny - GotA 28/07/63

Major Generals
Henry Halleck - MG 19/08/61 to be Commanding General
John Fulton Reynolds - MG 28/07/63 as reward for fall of Richmond and promotion to command of Army of the Potomac
Ulysses S. Grant - MG 29/07/63 as reward for the fall of Vicksburg
Joseph Hooker - MG 30/10/63 as reward for Battle of Four Armies
Isaac P. Rodman - MG 20/05/64 as reward for fall of Charleston
John J. Peck - MG 31/08/64 for part played in surrender of Army of Northern Virginia at Charlotte

Brigadier Generals*
William S. Rosecrans - BG 16/05/61
Joseph K.M. Mansfield - BG 14/05/61
Philip St. George Cooke - BG 28/11/61
Irvin McDowell - BG 14/05/62
FitzJohn Porter - BG 04/07/62 as temporary commander of the Army of the Potomac
Winfield Scott Hancock - BG 28/07/63 for capture of Richmond
William T. Sherman - BG 30/07/63 for capture of Vicksburg
John Sedgwick - BG 31/07/63 on assignment as military governor of Virginia
Israel Richardson - BG 14/10/63 for Lookout Mountain
J.N.O. Buford - BG 18/10/63 for Gettysburg
George Thomas - BG 26/10/63 for his performance at Chickamauga
Oliver O. Howard - BG 18/01/65 as chief of staff to the GotA at war's end

And there is no way (at the moment) I am looking at the Colonels particularly as I do not know how many regiments will remain after the war.

*This list does not include the 7 brigadier generals of the staff: L.Thomas, Meigs, A.Dyer, J.Barnes, A.Eaton, Holt and Delafield.

 

[Corder]

It is easy to forget how senior people like Halleck, Rosecrans and McDowell were. It would probably be worse if you looked at a list of Volunteer Major Generals at wars end!

 

[TheKnightIrish]

It is easy to forget how senior people like Halleck, Rosecrans and McDowell were. It would probably be worse if you looked at a list of Volunteer Major Generals at wars end!

McClellan, Pope and Meade would be on this list had they had survived. Hunter is a posthumous Brigadier-General of Regulars. I was surprised Burnside was never made a regular. Less surprising was that Don Carlos Buell only made it to Colonel in the regulars before resigning. John E. Wool resigned his Brigadier Generalship during the war. MacPherson died a colonel in the regulars.

It's astonishing how many great commanders who have led divisions and corps must now go back to companies and battalions (eventually - the conquered south needs to be occupied and policed first!).

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

Henry Halleck - MG 19/08/61 to be Commanding General
William S. Rosecrans - BG 16/05/61


Winfield Scott Hancock - BG 28/07/63 for capture of Richmond
William T. Sherman - BG 30/07/63 for capture of Vicksburg
J.N.O. Buford - BG 18/10/63 for Gettysburg
George Thomas - BG 26/10/63 for his performance at Chickamauga

I do find it a pity that some of these guys (bottom 4) did not reach the positions they did in OTL. I mean, especially considering that Hancock was old army all the way through the inbetween years of the Mexican-American war and the Civil War.

Also, bet this pisses off Rosecrans. Guy was an opportunist for advancement like any political general.

 

[Berat2beti]

Looking forward to seeing Davis tried alongside Robert Barnwell Rhett. Will Davis even try to defend himself if he is due to hang anyway? Rhett I suspect will spontaneously combust on the stand!

He can't the accused in Virginia for murder are prohibited from speaking he can tell his councilor's what to say before the trials begin but once they rise for the judge and be seated that's it for Davis he has to be silent.

 

[Corder]

I can't imagine the Hunter Murder trial will be held under Virginia State Law. It has Military Tribunal written all over it. Gus Smith has already faced the Boston Military Commission and been sentenced to death just for being Rhett's superior officer! I am thinking Washington Show Trial.

Also as Davis is now a convicted murder of southern womenhood it should be easier to convict him of commissioning Hunter's murder without consequences.