Did John Floyd die on schedule, or was his death butterflied away? If not, he'd be an extremely likely candidate for a trial given that he was Secretary of War under Buchanan. Another Confederate politician who would certainly be a top candidate would be Louis Wigfall due to his actions in the pre-war period.
A Glorious Union or America: the New Sparta
- Thread starter TheKnightIrish
- Start date
Did John Floyd die on schedule, or was his death butterflied away? If not, he'd be an extremely likely candidate for a trial given that he was Secretary of War under Buchanan. Another Confederate politician who would certainly be a top candidate would be Louis Wigfall due to his actions in the pre-war period.
Floyd is dead. Wigfall is on my list. I've done the Cabinet, Congress and Governors. Working on interesting Confederate officers now...Some interesting results already.
TFSmith121
Banned
Are you looking at all rebel officers, RA, PACS, and state?
Are you considering that all rebel officers (military and civil), whether "federal", CSRA, PACS, and state, would fall into the net?
The naval officers in Europe (Bulloch, etc.) would be tough to get at...
Twiggs is an obvious candidate, but he died in 1862, historically; his son in law would be a candidate, which has some interesting ripples - same for Buckner.
George S. Patton's grandfather is an potentially interesting subject - would he have died at Winchester (in 1864) in this "history"? If so, than presumably George S.'s father moves to California and George S. is born on schedule.
If not, who knows...lots of interesting impacts from a "typical" civil war war aftermath in the US.
The impact on the second and third generation would vary from "ultra- loyalists" to wipe out the stain to whatever the rebel equivalents of 'wild geese" and/or "Jacobites" may be...
No "Fusion" political movement, because there may not be any Democrats for the Republicans to "fuse" with...
The flip side is that African-American males will presumably keep their historical gains, simply through practical politics - there won't be anyone else for the Republicans to allign with, certainly not in the South.
Which means we may see something of "black" political dynasties - the Douglasses, etc - in the Nineteenth Century. The number of AA cadets admitted to USMA and USNA will be small, but they presumably will be more accepted. Someone has to hold down the South, after all; think of the handfull of KCOs and VCOs in the IA who were "more British than the British" - Kippers Cariappa and Sam Manekshaw, for example.
This may also mean gains "generally" for non-whites in the US in the Nineteenth Century; the sort of casual racism in the north and the absolute color bar in the south that was seen historically will be muted, obviously; tough to deal civil rights away when your best allies in the South are AA. Same holds true for men of native or mixed ancestry ancestry; Ely Parker is an obvious candidate for a greater role in postwar US history; same for Pablo de la Guerra.
The other big butterfly is what does this do for women's suffrage; obviously, there was tremendous conflict between advocates for "negro" male suffrage and women's suffrage in the late Nineteenth Century, but in this sort of postwar situation, the GOP may decide they need all the friends they can get...including Stanton, Mott, Stone, and Anthony.
Interesting enough, there is the possibility of getting this done as an immediate postwar measure, with the assistance of women who played a significant role in the war - Howe, Barton, Mary Walker, Harriet Tubman, etc come to mind.
Really interesting ramifications of a "hard" reconstruction.
Best,
Are you considering that all rebel officers (military and civil), whether "federal", CSRA, PACS, and state, would fall into the net?
The naval officers in Europe (Bulloch, etc.) would be tough to get at...
Twiggs is an obvious candidate, but he died in 1862, historically; his son in law would be a candidate, which has some interesting ripples - same for Buckner.
George S. Patton's grandfather is an potentially interesting subject - would he have died at Winchester (in 1864) in this "history"? If so, than presumably George S.'s father moves to California and George S. is born on schedule.
If not, who knows...lots of interesting impacts from a "typical" civil war war aftermath in the US.
The impact on the second and third generation would vary from "ultra- loyalists" to wipe out the stain to whatever the rebel equivalents of 'wild geese" and/or "Jacobites" may be...
No "Fusion" political movement, because there may not be any Democrats for the Republicans to "fuse" with...
The flip side is that African-American males will presumably keep their historical gains, simply through practical politics - there won't be anyone else for the Republicans to allign with, certainly not in the South.
Which means we may see something of "black" political dynasties - the Douglasses, etc - in the Nineteenth Century. The number of AA cadets admitted to USMA and USNA will be small, but they presumably will be more accepted. Someone has to hold down the South, after all; think of the handfull of KCOs and VCOs in the IA who were "more British than the British" - Kippers Cariappa and Sam Manekshaw, for example.
This may also mean gains "generally" for non-whites in the US in the Nineteenth Century; the sort of casual racism in the north and the absolute color bar in the south that was seen historically will be muted, obviously; tough to deal civil rights away when your best allies in the South are AA. Same holds true for men of native or mixed ancestry ancestry; Ely Parker is an obvious candidate for a greater role in postwar US history; same for Pablo de la Guerra.
The other big butterfly is what does this do for women's suffrage; obviously, there was tremendous conflict between advocates for "negro" male suffrage and women's suffrage in the late Nineteenth Century, but in this sort of postwar situation, the GOP may decide they need all the friends they can get...including Stanton, Mott, Stone, and Anthony.
Interesting enough, there is the possibility of getting this done as an immediate postwar measure, with the assistance of women who played a significant role in the war - Howe, Barton, Mary Walker, Harriet Tubman, etc come to mind.
Really interesting ramifications of a "hard" reconstruction.
Best,
OK,so while KI is setting up a list of who's going to trial...
....I wanted to mention the expiated classes in the South...specifically, how to deal with them. Some will leave, but there is also deciding who, when and how to renaturalize as citizens.
One idea I had is that the Radicals could propose legislation to immediately renaturalize those expiates in the south who did not bear arms against the Union or otherwise serve the CSA (similar to OTL "ironclad oath").
The Unionists OTOH could offer a somewhat more open plan to renaturalize expiates who swear loyalty to the Union.
Both sides, however, will seek to limit renaturalization to those willing to vote Republican. Anyone voting otherwise (Democratic) might find themselves Proscribed....
I think IMHO, the Radicals will want to encourage emigration of expiates from the South as much as possible, especially for former soldiers and government officials.
In turn, expect there to be a LOT more Carpetbaggers going South ITTL.....with the new laws (Confiscation especially) in place. Opportunistic Yankees could make a helluva profit....
....I wanted to mention the expiated classes in the South...specifically, how to deal with them. Some will leave, but there is also deciding who, when and how to renaturalize as citizens.
One idea I had is that the Radicals could propose legislation to immediately renaturalize those expiates in the south who did not bear arms against the Union or otherwise serve the CSA (similar to OTL "ironclad oath").
The Unionists OTOH could offer a somewhat more open plan to renaturalize expiates who swear loyalty to the Union.
Both sides, however, will seek to limit renaturalization to those willing to vote Republican. Anyone voting otherwise (Democratic) might find themselves Proscribed....
I think IMHO, the Radicals will want to encourage emigration of expiates from the South as much as possible, especially for former soldiers and government officials.
In turn, expect there to be a LOT more Carpetbaggers going South ITTL.....with the new laws (Confiscation especially) in place. Opportunistic Yankees could make a helluva profit....
TFSmith121
Banned
Not too many of these, however, depending on the
Not too many of these, however, depending on the definition of "serving" the CSA...
The percentage of adult white males who didn't end up in the rebel "CS" forces, the various state forces, local home guards or irregulars of one stripe or another was vanishingly small, and among the few exceptions to one level of conscription or another were those serving in public (local, state, or national) government or recognized war industries...
The CS draft included all able-bodied males between 16 to 50, and in most states, militia service to 60; hiring substitutes was prohibited in 1864; and enlistment (as opposed to impressment and forced labor) of men of (legally recognized) African ancestry was eventually allowed late in 1865.
Pretty much no one was left...
Best,
Not too many of these, however, depending on the definition of "serving" the CSA...
The percentage of adult white males who didn't end up in the rebel "CS" forces, the various state forces, local home guards or irregulars of one stripe or another was vanishingly small, and among the few exceptions to one level of conscription or another were those serving in public (local, state, or national) government or recognized war industries...
The CS draft included all able-bodied males between 16 to 50, and in most states, militia service to 60; hiring substitutes was prohibited in 1864; and enlistment (as opposed to impressment and forced labor) of men of (legally recognized) African ancestry was eventually allowed late in 1865.
Pretty much no one was left...
Best,
I can see some sort of pyramid - where senior officers are totally gone, other officers have to go through a period of re-education. Enlisted who are not slave owners or involved in dodgy actions have only a short time of re-education. Of course political dies hards, plantation owners, etc...
TFSmith121
Banned
Some sort of sieve would be necessary
otherwise, basically you're talking about true Unionists, galvanized Yankees, children, old men, women, and those of (obvious) African ancestry...
That's about it.
Best,
otherwise, basically you're talking about true Unionists, galvanized Yankees, children, old men, women, and those of (obvious) African ancestry...
That's about it.
Best,
Yeah. It strikes me that radicalism is likely for a time to be a southern thing. Right now the north is worked up like nothing else, so the south isn't "radical." In fifty years the south will probably be actively conservative - the economics and social attitudes simply push that way. But in the interim there will be a period after the nations radicals have spent their fervor, but before most southerners can vote. In that window, northerners may come to have second thoughts about a solid south of blacks and radicals....
TFSmith121
Banned
Could simply lead to what we'd consider
Could simply lead to what we'd consider Progressive/Populist politics with a capital P, however - a Progressive Republican/Populist Fusion would be interesting.
Best,
Could simply lead to what we'd consider Progressive/Populist politics with a capital P, however - a Progressive Republican/Populist Fusion would be interesting.
Best,
I wonder how the OTL migration of blacks up to northern industrial jobs will play out here.
TFSmith121
Banned
The Great Migration was (generally) a Twentieth
The Great Migration was (generally) a Twentieth Century phenomenon; may be too early for TKI to make a call.
However, a reconstructed South will (possibly) be a better place for AAs to live and build their futures, so the "driver" in terms of southern white supremacy and segregation as state policy may be less of a factor.
The economic opportunity factor as a "pull" may still occur, of course.
Best,
The Great Migration was (generally) a Twentieth Century phenomenon; may be too early for TKI to make a call.
However, a reconstructed South will (possibly) be a better place for AAs to live and build their futures, so the "driver" in terms of southern white supremacy and segregation as state policy may be less of a factor.
The economic opportunity factor as a "pull" may still occur, of course.
Best,
Let me make a suggestion for a hangin - every SOB connected with the Gainsville Massacre. General Paul Herbert, General William R Hudson, Colonel James Bourland, Captain James Young. Good luck with Young's slaves who helped lynch a unionist newspaper editor.
General James W Throckmorton should be credited witb saving lives potentially?
General James W Throckmorton should be credited witb saving lives potentially?
Fear not. I have not forgotten Kearny et al. I am taking some time to research the next phase and also a little break now and then keeps the writing fresh. I am hoping to do an update this weekend on the fate of the South's politicians...
Chapter One Hundred and Thirty Nine Standing on the Right Platform Part I: Cabinet Officers
Chapter One Hundred and Thirty Nine
Standing on the Right Platform
Part I: Cabinet Officers
Standing on the Right Platform
Part I: Cabinet Officers
From "The Great Constitutional Crisis" by Dr. Lee M. King
Carlotta 1962
“Alexander H. Stevens would be held at Fort Warren in Boston for three long years. In that time the Radical witch hunt sought repeatedly to bring charges against the former Confederate Vice President. They were thwarted at every attempt…
Alexander H. Stevens
The office of Vice President of the Confederate States was utterly without power or responsibility. He had signed no orders, made no proclamations, handed down no judgments…
At the time the great secession crisis came to a head he was out of office. In Georgia’s secession convention he spoke repeatedly against the need for secession, merely acknowledging the legality of secession in the most extreme cases. He voted against the secession ordinance and only stood for the Confederate Congress after his state had departed the Union…
The Radical machine tried and failed to bring charges for treason, for murder, for the theft of Federal property and more, all to no avail. In the summer of 1868 Alexander Stephens was informed he was to be released. Having been found guilty of no crime he was handed the most wrenching of sentences. He was a proscribed person and never more would be suffered to return to the United States. From Fort Warren he was transferred to a ship in the Harbor bound for Havana. He had enough money to survive a month thrust into his pocket and was then cast out upon the waves by this New Republic…”
From "The Fallen Idols" by Teddy Braddock
Grosvenor 2003
“Robert M.T. Hunter had been cast out of the United States Senate for he had openly, if quietly, urged the secession of home state of Virginia from the Union. He had advised on the means to make secession a reality and upon the steps that the Virginia State Government should embark to secure its borders. The evidence found by the Office of Military Intelligence in Virginia was barely required. The former United and Confederate States Senator, Confederate States Secretary of State would be tried by Military Tribunal in Boston; found guilty; and sentenced to death…
His successor as Secretary of State, Judah P. Benjamin, presented the United States Government with a dilemma. Of his treason there was little doubt. As a United States Senator he had openly advocated secession. The Delta newspaper in Louisiana printed a letter from Benjamin dated the December 8th 1860 stating that, as the people of the North were of unalterable hostility to their Southern brethren, it behooved the latter to depart from the government common to them. He also signed a joint letter from Southern congressmen to their constituents, urging the formation of a confederation of the seceding states. All this and more two months before his resignation as Senator on February 4, 1861. The problem presented by Benjamin’s inevitable conviction was his “British” birth having been born in a very general way as a British citizen (the Danish West Indies were at the time occupied by Britain). Whether with relief or reluctance the administration dealt with the issue by having his sentence commuted from execution to life imprisonment…
The original Secretary of State of the Confederacy shared the benefit of foreign birth with Benjamin. William M. Browne was charged with no crime despite having served with Cabinet rank and later as aide-de-camp to Jefferson Davis. He was proscribed and exiled. He returned to live with his relatives in Ireland…
George W. Randolph had held the post of Secretary of War for 6 months in 1862. He was dying of tuberculosis when captured. Before he was charged, he died in Fort Warren in September 1866. At the time of his death the United States Military Prosecutor was considering his release and proscription rather than preferring charges…
His successor as Secretary for War, James Seddon, came very close to being charged with murder and crimes “against the laws and acknowledged usages of war”. With this prospect facing him, he agreed under pressure from certain Radical Republicans, who some in the military thought ought not to have had access to him, to testify against Jefferson Davis in his trial for the murder of General David Hunter. He had also agreed to testify against Robert Barnwell Rhett though ultimately his testimony would not be called on…
Seddon was released from Fort Warren and proscribed in early 1868. He would eventually make his way to Tampico in Mexico, having been ostracized by the exilado grise community in the young town of Carlotta and elsewhere. He would take his own life in April 1870 in the French quarter of that city…
James Seddon died in poverty in exile in Mexico
Of the other captured cabinet officers only LeRoy Pope Walker would escape execution. Many said he was spared because of his ineptitude as Secretary of War, a gift the United States Government felt bound to honor. More likely was the fact he had held office but briefly, and though an active promoter of secession, he had held on office at the time and was under no oath to the Federal or State Government. Walker would be proscribed and would ultimately join John H. Reagan and Stephen Mallory in exile in Mexico…
Of the remaining four surviving men who had held cabinet rank in the Confederate Government three would hang and a fourth would be shot…
Christopher Memminger was a controversial case. The Secretary for the Treasury had reluctantly written the primary justification for secession when he penned the “Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union”. He held no office and was under no oath so this alone was not enough to hang him. He would likely have been released and proscribed had not Benjamin Wade intervened. Wade had received intelligence, likely from Charles Stone of the OMI, that Confederate Government papers indicated that the Confederate Department of the Treasury had received funds from the sale of captured African-American soldiers and civilians into slavery…
Christopher Memminger's indictment and conviction remain to this day extremely controversial. Senator Wade publicly took credit for seeing him hanged.
In a dramatic case heard in Norfolk, Virginia Memminger would be convicted on controversial evidence of slave trading under the Piracy Law of 1820. His jury, 12 good men and true, contained 7 African-American Virginians…
His foreign birth, unlike Benjamin and Browne, would not save him and he was hung in November 1867…
Thomas Bragg, former senator from North Carolina, and later Attorney General for the Confederate States was convicted of treason on the basis of OMI evidence that he was in treasonous conspiracy with elements in his own state while still a serving member of the United States Congress. Sentenced to death, a plea for the commutation of his sentence forwarded to President Lincoln, from the people of his state and, significantly, endorsed by General Winfield S. Hancock as “a measure that would greatly reconcile this state to the union”, would go unanswered and the sentence of hanging executed…”
From “A Day That Will Live in Infamy - the Hunter Controversy” by Prof. J. K. Lang
LSU 2003
“As Attorney General, Thomas Hill Watts, had made one crucial error if he was to escape the gallows. He had written extensive justifications for the “military execution” of insurrectionists, black and white, in support of President Davis’ General Orders 60 and 111. Though many of these were written retrospectively to try to justify the murders of General David Hunter and his negro pioneers, they only served to make him complicit in the deaths. It only added insult to injury that he had signed Alabama’s Ordinance of Secession…
Watts would be convicted by the Military Tribunal in Boston of murder and sentenced to hang. That sentence was carried out alongside Robert M.T. Hunter and Thomas Bragg on March 21, 1867…”
Robert M.T. Hunter, Thomas Bragg, and Thomas Hill Watts
From "The Fallen Idols" by Teddy Braddock
Grosvenor 2003
“The most tragic case for many was that of John C. Breckinridge. Formerly a United States Congressman, Senator and Vice President he had gone on to become a Confederate General and Secretary of War…
The foremost charge against him was treason. Indeed the charges had been outstanding against him since November 6 1861. As a United States Senator from Kentucky he had, in an open letter to his constituents dated October 8 1861, maintained that the Union no longer existed and that Kentucky should be free to choose her own course; he defended his sympathy to the Southern cause and denounced the Unionist state legislature, declaring, "I exchange with proud satisfaction a term of six years in the Senate of the United States for the musket of a soldier." The indictment for treason was issued in the U.S. Federal district court in Frankfort. The date was significant as he had officially enlisted in the Confederate States Army days earlier…
In many ways his guilt had already been decided for on December 2, 1861, he had been declared a traitor by the United States Senate. A resolution stating "Whereas John C. Breckinridge, a member of this body from the State of Kentucky, has joined the enemies of his country, and is now in arms against the government he had sworn to support: Therefore--Resolved, That said John C. Breckinridge, the traitor, be, and he hereby is, expelled from the Senate," was adopted by a vote of 36–0 on December 4…
It came as no surprise then that he was found guilty and sentenced to hang. Unlike many of his fellows he did not write to the President for clemency or pardon. He wrote requesting that, as a soldier first and foremost, he be allowed to die in his uniform before a firing squad. He wrote a similar request to General Philip Kearny. Although “extremely irregular” (Attorney General James Speed) and despite the recommendation from the Attorney General’s office that the request be refused, his wish was granted, and on March 22, 1867 he was shot by firing squad in the grounds of Fort Warren…”
General John C. Breckinridge, executed with full military honors...
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You do the crime you do the...time. Or get hung as the case may be.
Great update KI. Looking forward to what you have planned next.
Great update KI. Looking forward to what you have planned next.
TFSmith121
Banned
Outstanding...justice is served.
You know, one possibility in all this that might have some cultural influences is The Man Without a Country; the idea of detailing some of the lesser includeds to life-long service as a "passenger" aboard USN vessels on distance service has sort of a romantic quality to it.
Exiles to Wilkes Land would be another option.
Really well done.
Best,
You know, one possibility in all this that might have some cultural influences is The Man Without a Country; the idea of detailing some of the lesser includeds to life-long service as a "passenger" aboard USN vessels on distance service has sort of a romantic quality to it.
Exiles to Wilkes Land would be another option.
Really well done.
Best,
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I will look at the Governors and some Senators and then the Generals...
I always thought so. It's less than 20 years since the 48 revolts in Europe and the revolutionaries didn't fair very well in those as a rule...
A cold Guantanamo Bay!
Wilkes Land would be a death sentence I suspect.