List alternate PMs or Presidents
- Thread starter Razors are for Fish
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Seconded, it was very well put. In hindsight the list is very flawed and I'll take that on board when writing in the future.
I think the south Dakota thing was a coincidence on my part stemming from a lack of knowledge of US politics. I may yet go back and revise it and I'll definitely take it into account if I do the same for Prime Ministers/ UK government
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This was a nice read, I like that Joe Biden is looked down as one of the greatest presidents, and that Bush Sr. getting a second term.
Dan Quayle winning a nomination is also a plus.
This ended up slightly more weirdly plausible (and a bit more bittersweet) than I had intended. I'm going to try a few more from other specific years.
The View from '92
1990-1996: John Major (Conservative)
1996-2003: John Smith (Labour)
2003-2004: Gordon Brown (Labour)
2004-2012: Michael Portillo (Conservative)
2012-2017: Paul Boateng (Labour)
2017-0000: Cordelia Gummer (Conservative)
The View from '92
1990-1996: John Major (Conservative)
1996-2003: John Smith (Labour)
2003-2004: Gordon Brown (Labour)
2004-2012: Michael Portillo (Conservative)
2012-2017: Paul Boateng (Labour)
2017-0000: Cordelia Gummer (Conservative)
Fun times in the USA, I see.
I'll add my name to the list of people praising your list, I'll be waiting with excitement for your story and hope that whatever project you have planned will go well for you.
Not sure I get the premise. Is it a mimic of one of those temporal stasis lists we talked of earlier in the thread?
Good job putting in Portillo. Ridiculously over-used on here as a post-New Labour PM when set against the high likelihood that he was going to flame out of politics at some point.
Boateng's good, but I wonder if Chris Smith or Dawn Primarolo might have been the real political hipster choices in '92. Or young Harriet Harman, maybe?
Or Glenda Jackson for the 'No idea of their political ability or affiliations but I know 'em and they've just been elected so they'll go far' choice.
Or Glenda Jackson for the 'No idea of their political ability or affiliations but I know 'em and they've just been elected so they'll go far' choice.
A Royal America
[1] Washington is the first President under the new Constitution, albeit against his own personal judgement. After renouncing the throne offered to him, Washington would use his one and only term in office to attempt and keep the nation together in the first years of the new Constitutional Monarchy.
[2] John Adams becomes Washington's successor after idealogical splits lead to the continuing independent Adams to win over the electoral college. His first term would see controversy over Hamilton's continuing control of Government affairs (from his hijacking of the Constitutional Convention to his personal selection of Adams) and the handling of the Whiskey Rebellion by King Benedict I, resulting in deaths. Winning a second term, Adams used it to distance himself from Adams and broke rank with many policies he had been duped into passing, earning praise from political rival Thomas Jefferson. The Quasi War with France would also see the American Navy secure astonishing victories, and the sending of Arthur St. Clair to set up a puppet Government in Hispaniola.
[3] Thomas Jefferson becomes President as the first man affiliated to a political party, that of the Confederationist Party opposite of the Federalist's and Democratic-Monarchist's (who would fold into the Confederationist's). Jefferson's Presidency throughout the Fourth and Fifth Ministries would prove eventful. At first aimed at reducing the debt, Jefferson would earn praise for the Purchase of Florida from Spain in 1802. Jefferson would also attempt to push his Emancipation Plan on Congress after his success at having the selling of slaves made illegal in the Constitutional Convention. By the end of Jefferson's first term, however, the purchase of Florida would only lead to issues when New Orleans was occupied by French troops ahead of the set transfer date. New Orleans fell East of the Mississippi, which in the purchase, was indicated as American. Against attempts to purchase Louisiana, Napoleon would not relent, and even went as far as ridiculing Benedict. Benedict responded by sending an army into New Orleans, resulting in Louisiana War that engulfed the end of the Fourth Ministry and the beginning of the Fifth. Ultimately, Jefferson won re-election in 1804, and the Confederationist's took the Senate hoping to end the war with New Orleans in hand but not much else in fear of more bloodshed. James Madison would use the flare in hostilities between Britain and France, along with the War of the Fourth Coalition and France's need for funds, to secure that the peace resulted not just in New Orleans, but the exchange of American acceptance of Haiti as French sovereign land and payment for the purchase of Louisiana. In Jefferson's 8 years as President, the nation doubled in size and fought a somewhat successful war against a European Power.
[4] George Clinton clinched the Presidency amidst fears that his age and time had passed or that his belief in his own state exceeded that of in the country as a whole. Still, the people voted him President in 1808 in the election that saw the failure of Alexander Hamilton to take the Presidency. Clinton's Presidency would take place during the Sixth Ministry (1809 through 1813) and would see a couple firsts. The first of these is the death of King Benedict, the first royal death in the nations history. As if the nation couldn't be hit by that enough, George Clinton himself would die two weeks later, becoming the first President to die in office. His short year and a half in office would see tensions continue to rise with Great Britain, the building of a structured road network west, the Lewis & Pike Expedition into Louisiana, and the start of the Erie Canal Project. Clinton also sided the Federalist's and the Southerners in terms of slavery and shot down the reattempt to pass Jefferson's Emancipation Plan. His death, just a month before the mid-terms, left questions of succession in the air. The Confederationist's argued that a new election must be held or that the incoming House of Representatives must choose a new President from the House of Governors. Meanwhile, some Federalist's argued that the King must choose a President. And all the while, Vice-President Joseph Bradley Varnum was taking the Oath of Office, administered to him by Chief Justice and former President John Adams, and stating that he was now the President since he was the Vice-President.
- George Washington (I-VA) 1789 - 1793 [1]
[*]John Adams (I-MA) 1793 - 1801 [2] - Thomas Jefferson (C-VA) 1801 - 1809 [3]
- George Clinton (C-NY) 1809 - 1810† [4]
[1] Washington is the first President under the new Constitution, albeit against his own personal judgement. After renouncing the throne offered to him, Washington would use his one and only term in office to attempt and keep the nation together in the first years of the new Constitutional Monarchy.
[2] John Adams becomes Washington's successor after idealogical splits lead to the continuing independent Adams to win over the electoral college. His first term would see controversy over Hamilton's continuing control of Government affairs (from his hijacking of the Constitutional Convention to his personal selection of Adams) and the handling of the Whiskey Rebellion by King Benedict I, resulting in deaths. Winning a second term, Adams used it to distance himself from Adams and broke rank with many policies he had been duped into passing, earning praise from political rival Thomas Jefferson. The Quasi War with France would also see the American Navy secure astonishing victories, and the sending of Arthur St. Clair to set up a puppet Government in Hispaniola.
[3] Thomas Jefferson becomes President as the first man affiliated to a political party, that of the Confederationist Party opposite of the Federalist's and Democratic-Monarchist's (who would fold into the Confederationist's). Jefferson's Presidency throughout the Fourth and Fifth Ministries would prove eventful. At first aimed at reducing the debt, Jefferson would earn praise for the Purchase of Florida from Spain in 1802. Jefferson would also attempt to push his Emancipation Plan on Congress after his success at having the selling of slaves made illegal in the Constitutional Convention. By the end of Jefferson's first term, however, the purchase of Florida would only lead to issues when New Orleans was occupied by French troops ahead of the set transfer date. New Orleans fell East of the Mississippi, which in the purchase, was indicated as American. Against attempts to purchase Louisiana, Napoleon would not relent, and even went as far as ridiculing Benedict. Benedict responded by sending an army into New Orleans, resulting in Louisiana War that engulfed the end of the Fourth Ministry and the beginning of the Fifth. Ultimately, Jefferson won re-election in 1804, and the Confederationist's took the Senate hoping to end the war with New Orleans in hand but not much else in fear of more bloodshed. James Madison would use the flare in hostilities between Britain and France, along with the War of the Fourth Coalition and France's need for funds, to secure that the peace resulted not just in New Orleans, but the exchange of American acceptance of Haiti as French sovereign land and payment for the purchase of Louisiana. In Jefferson's 8 years as President, the nation doubled in size and fought a somewhat successful war against a European Power.
[4] George Clinton clinched the Presidency amidst fears that his age and time had passed or that his belief in his own state exceeded that of in the country as a whole. Still, the people voted him President in 1808 in the election that saw the failure of Alexander Hamilton to take the Presidency. Clinton's Presidency would take place during the Sixth Ministry (1809 through 1813) and would see a couple firsts. The first of these is the death of King Benedict, the first royal death in the nations history. As if the nation couldn't be hit by that enough, George Clinton himself would die two weeks later, becoming the first President to die in office. His short year and a half in office would see tensions continue to rise with Great Britain, the building of a structured road network west, the Lewis & Pike Expedition into Louisiana, and the start of the Erie Canal Project. Clinton also sided the Federalist's and the Southerners in terms of slavery and shot down the reattempt to pass Jefferson's Emancipation Plan. His death, just a month before the mid-terms, left questions of succession in the air. The Confederationist's argued that a new election must be held or that the incoming House of Representatives must choose a new President from the House of Governors. Meanwhile, some Federalist's argued that the King must choose a President. And all the while, Vice-President Joseph Bradley Varnum was taking the Oath of Office, administered to him by Chief Justice and former President John Adams, and stating that he was now the President since he was the Vice-President.
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Thande
Donor
Nice, though I agree with V-J's points. While British political dynasties obviously do exist, I think in a 'view from this date' scenario the average Briton is less likely to turn to "son/daughter of existing political figure" as a PM possibility than the average American. You're more likely to see the Glenda Jackson type "oo look a celebrity" examples. Like, the 'view from 2010' might have seen Louise Bagshawe (as she was then) down as a future Tory PM and Gloria de Piero as a future Labour PM.
Also: I have had a good idea for a PM list or expanded TLIAD like your Communist one, but I just know I don't have enough political knowledge of the period (the 1840s) to do it justice.
I'm glad I inadvertently started an idea! I could probably misuse the word "Meta" at this point.
Its a fun concept, I'd join in if I had the political knowledge. Fun to read though.
Give the idea a go, that's the point of TLIADs really.
I see what you mean, but Cordelia Gummer isn't really a dynastic reference - it's a joke about how someone in 1992 would know about John Gummer's daughter because he fed her a burger on TV aged 4.
A list of PMs for my TL so far.
In The Name of the King!
1766: William Pitt, 1st Earl of Chatham (Whig) [1]
1767: Charles Watson-Wentworth, 2nd Marquess of Rockingham (Whig) [2]
1774: Charles Watson-Wentworth, 2nd Marquess of Rockingham (Whig) [3]
1781: Charles Watson-Wentworth, 2nd Marquess of Rockingham (Rockinghamite Whig) [4]
1788: Frederick North, 2nd Earl of Guildford ('Tory') [5]
1791: John Montagu, 5th Earl of Sandwich (Northite Tory-Pittite Tory Coalition) [6]
1795: William Pitt 'The Younger' (Pittite Tory-Burkite Whig Coalition) [7]
1800: William Pitt 'The Younger' (Pittite Tory-Burkite Whig Coalition) [8]
1806: Sir Alexander Hamilton, 1st Baronet (Pittite Tory-Old Whig Coalition) [9]
1810: Sir Alexander Hamilton, 1st Baronet (Reform Whig-Tory Coalition) [10]
1816: Sir Alexander Hamilton, 1st Baronet (Reform Whig) [11]
[1] The man who had engineered Britain's expansion into being a world spanning empire and the Europe's premier naval power was unfortunately struck down by disease and forced to retire. His rather lameduck one year administration ended, and the King casting around for alternatives, called a general election
[2] The Marquess of Rockingham emerged as leader of the largest faction of Whigs, and was able to rally them behind him. The King was forced to put up with a man he didn't particularly like. If he'd known the longevity of Rockingham's career, he might have resisted more.
[3] While his first term was mostly occupied with securing Britain's gains by attempting to build diplomatic bonds across the country, in his second term, Rockingham became decidedly more radical. A compromise was reached with the American colonies wherein they became direct parts of the Kingdom of Great Britain. During his second term, the coalition of Whigs he had built began to collapse, but he managed to maintain a majority by appealing to both Radical and Tory sentiments.
[4] In his final term, Rockingham's strident position was considerably weakened by the division of British politics into four stable parties. His faction of Whigs managed to cling on to power, narrowly. Rockingham began to suffer internal problems as Radicals became more important, and came to rely on the stable 'American Whig' faction.
[5] An aged Lord North finally attained the premiership, forging a coalition of Tories and conservative Whigs. North never claimed to be a Tory, but his government would become Tory after the fact. He mostly attained government due to dissatisfaction with the increasing radicalism of the Rockinghamites and exhaustion with Rockingham's domination of government for the last two decades.
[6] North's death in government led to the son of one of his close allies gaining his seat. North's death broke the weak coalition of 'Tories', into parts that followed his more traditionalist path and the reformers under Pitt. Sandwich was able to just about maintain a shaky coalition, but the pressures of the Revolutionary Wars, led to a deterioration which finally collapsed when France under Jacques Hebert managed to crush invaders and insurrection, posing a direct threat to the rest of Europe.
[7] William Pitt led his faction of reforming Tories into government, requiring the support of Edmund Burke's faction of Whigs to prop him up. The Rockinghamites had come under the rule of Charles James Fox, and had transformed into the Radical Whigs and had become relatively marginalised due to the Revolutionary Wars.
[8] Pitt continued policies of trying to repair Britain's massive national debt, expanding her navy, financially supporting members of the Coalition against France, and propping up governments-in-exile in the colonies. The 'American Whig' faction was by now thoroughly riven, usually between either the Pittites or the Radical Whigs. Pitt was however weakened by the expansionist policy that France had taken under Sieyes. Burke's death had also left Pitt in a difficult position as the Burkites argued over his legacy.
[9] The energetic (and controversial) New Yorker triumphed over other challengers after Pitt died in office. He was very much in Pitt's mould, a financial and political reformer, and aggressive supporter of commerce and the Empire. He continued the alliance with the Burkites, now coalesced under the Duke of Portland, to keep out the growing Radicals. Hamilton benefitted from the humiliation of France in the field with the close of hostilities in 1806.
[10] The colossal victories of France by 1810, led to calls from the Old Whigs as well as rejuvenated Radical Whigs, to come to some sort of permanent settlement with the French government, pointing out how the Terror had been abandoned within France since Sieyes had displaced Hebert. Hamilton was determined to finish what he had started, and formed an alliance with the Tories. He reconstituted the Pittites as Reform Whigs, differentiating them from Whig traditionalism and Whig radicalism alike.
[11] The final victory of the Coalition over the Republican French, restoring the monarchy at least led to an overwhelming wave of patriotic fervour which delivered Hamilton back into power with a landslide majority, allowing him to abandon partners in power.
In The Name of the King!
1766: William Pitt, 1st Earl of Chatham (Whig) [1]
1767: Charles Watson-Wentworth, 2nd Marquess of Rockingham (Whig) [2]
1774: Charles Watson-Wentworth, 2nd Marquess of Rockingham (Whig) [3]
1781: Charles Watson-Wentworth, 2nd Marquess of Rockingham (Rockinghamite Whig) [4]
1788: Frederick North, 2nd Earl of Guildford ('Tory') [5]
1791: John Montagu, 5th Earl of Sandwich (Northite Tory-Pittite Tory Coalition) [6]
1795: William Pitt 'The Younger' (Pittite Tory-Burkite Whig Coalition) [7]
1800: William Pitt 'The Younger' (Pittite Tory-Burkite Whig Coalition) [8]
1806: Sir Alexander Hamilton, 1st Baronet (Pittite Tory-Old Whig Coalition) [9]
1810: Sir Alexander Hamilton, 1st Baronet (Reform Whig-Tory Coalition) [10]
1816: Sir Alexander Hamilton, 1st Baronet (Reform Whig) [11]
[1] The man who had engineered Britain's expansion into being a world spanning empire and the Europe's premier naval power was unfortunately struck down by disease and forced to retire. His rather lameduck one year administration ended, and the King casting around for alternatives, called a general election
[2] The Marquess of Rockingham emerged as leader of the largest faction of Whigs, and was able to rally them behind him. The King was forced to put up with a man he didn't particularly like. If he'd known the longevity of Rockingham's career, he might have resisted more.
[3] While his first term was mostly occupied with securing Britain's gains by attempting to build diplomatic bonds across the country, in his second term, Rockingham became decidedly more radical. A compromise was reached with the American colonies wherein they became direct parts of the Kingdom of Great Britain. During his second term, the coalition of Whigs he had built began to collapse, but he managed to maintain a majority by appealing to both Radical and Tory sentiments.
[4] In his final term, Rockingham's strident position was considerably weakened by the division of British politics into four stable parties. His faction of Whigs managed to cling on to power, narrowly. Rockingham began to suffer internal problems as Radicals became more important, and came to rely on the stable 'American Whig' faction.
[5] An aged Lord North finally attained the premiership, forging a coalition of Tories and conservative Whigs. North never claimed to be a Tory, but his government would become Tory after the fact. He mostly attained government due to dissatisfaction with the increasing radicalism of the Rockinghamites and exhaustion with Rockingham's domination of government for the last two decades.
[6] North's death in government led to the son of one of his close allies gaining his seat. North's death broke the weak coalition of 'Tories', into parts that followed his more traditionalist path and the reformers under Pitt. Sandwich was able to just about maintain a shaky coalition, but the pressures of the Revolutionary Wars, led to a deterioration which finally collapsed when France under Jacques Hebert managed to crush invaders and insurrection, posing a direct threat to the rest of Europe.
[7] William Pitt led his faction of reforming Tories into government, requiring the support of Edmund Burke's faction of Whigs to prop him up. The Rockinghamites had come under the rule of Charles James Fox, and had transformed into the Radical Whigs and had become relatively marginalised due to the Revolutionary Wars.
[8] Pitt continued policies of trying to repair Britain's massive national debt, expanding her navy, financially supporting members of the Coalition against France, and propping up governments-in-exile in the colonies. The 'American Whig' faction was by now thoroughly riven, usually between either the Pittites or the Radical Whigs. Pitt was however weakened by the expansionist policy that France had taken under Sieyes. Burke's death had also left Pitt in a difficult position as the Burkites argued over his legacy.
[9] The energetic (and controversial) New Yorker triumphed over other challengers after Pitt died in office. He was very much in Pitt's mould, a financial and political reformer, and aggressive supporter of commerce and the Empire. He continued the alliance with the Burkites, now coalesced under the Duke of Portland, to keep out the growing Radicals. Hamilton benefitted from the humiliation of France in the field with the close of hostilities in 1806.
[10] The colossal victories of France by 1810, led to calls from the Old Whigs as well as rejuvenated Radical Whigs, to come to some sort of permanent settlement with the French government, pointing out how the Terror had been abandoned within France since Sieyes had displaced Hebert. Hamilton was determined to finish what he had started, and formed an alliance with the Tories. He reconstituted the Pittites as Reform Whigs, differentiating them from Whig traditionalism and Whig radicalism alike.
[11] The final victory of the Coalition over the Republican French, restoring the monarchy at least led to an overwhelming wave of patriotic fervour which delivered Hamilton back into power with a landslide majority, allowing him to abandon partners in power.
In the interests of being open-minded about the whole political stasis thing, I thought that I would try to come up with a list analogous to 1948-1976, with the 1948 election(which is suitable for this purpose because so many future candidates first came to prominence that year) being represented with 2012. So candidates from 1952-1976 were replaced with current people of the same position(with the exception of Eisenhower) and approximately the same age that the earlier politicians had achieved in 1950. For example, Ron DeSantis and Gerald Ford had both just been elected representative for the first time. People unknown in 1948 are just shown as question marks.
-2017:Barack Obama/Joe Biden
2017-2025:David Petraeus/Cory Gardner
2016:Steve Bullock/Chris Coons
2020:Steve Bullock/Cory Booker
2025-2027:Cedric Richmond/Martin Heinrich
2024:Cory Gardner/Rand Paul
2027-2033:Martin Heinrich/Chris Murphy
2028:???/???
2033-2037:Cory Gardner/???
2032:Chris Murphy/??? ???/Paul J. Selva
2036:???/???
2037-2038:Cory Gardner/Ron DeSantis
2038-2041:Ron DeSantis/Howard Warren Buffett
-2017:Barack Obama/Joe Biden
2017-2025:David Petraeus/Cory Gardner
2016:Steve Bullock/Chris Coons
2020:Steve Bullock/Cory Booker
2025-2027:Cedric Richmond/Martin Heinrich
2024:Cory Gardner/Rand Paul
2027-2033:Martin Heinrich/Chris Murphy
2028:???/???
2033-2037:Cory Gardner/???
2032:Chris Murphy/??? ???/Paul J. Selva
2036:???/???
2037-2038:Cory Gardner/Ron DeSantis
2038-2041:Ron DeSantis/Howard Warren Buffett
Considering your TL was considerable inspiration to me, that is high praise indeed.
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