Union and Liberty: An American TL

[jycee]

Well, in OTL Coca-Cola has been generally seen as a symbol of American values, whether that be capitalism, unity, internationalism, or crushing your faces under our well-weathered boot. Hooray, America!

True but in the last years the brand has definitively been trying to shift itself from been and American symbol to being an American symbol. And I have to say they've been quite successful at it. The cans were printed in two languages/alphabets all over the world through out 2008; the fact that the bottle's outline is one of the most recognizable shapes in the world is emphasized. And over all Coca-Cola simply avoids portraying itself as an "all-American" product. Even within the US.

Compare this attitude against that of many other American brands.

Furthermore most people outside the US do not think of Coca-Cola with the same bad light that they think of McDonalds, KFC, Burger King, even Pepsi, most Hollywood franchises, certain clothing brands, etc.

Coca-Cola has found the perfect marketing niche. A golden spot that few brands can claim. Many none other can; I'd say Starbucks is trying but it isn't quite there.

Also as a side note: you could say that the US (and I think Canada as well) is the only place where you can't find Coca-Cola, at least not the classic recipe sweetened with actual cane sugar; you can only get Coke, the kind sweetened with high fructose corn syrup. (Same goes for the artificial sweeteners in Diet Coke and Coca-Cola light).

Anyway this is not a forum discussing Coca-Cola marketing strategies but one discussing an AH scenario where its founder if a Confederate soldier. So we want to read more about his alternate career and Lee's as well.

 

[lothaw]

Yep. Although as an engineer and maybe minor politician, not a general.

Well minor politicians and regular army colonels both found themselves with stars on their shoulders when the OTL Civil War started. Might not get command of the army as he did, though I suspect he'd at least make Brigadier general.

 

[jycee]

Well minor politicians and regular army colonels both found themselves with stars on their shoulders when the OTL Civil War started. Might not get command of the army as he did, though I suspect he'd at least make Brigadier general.

Plus even if he is not in command of the army his popularity can still become big enough that it can boost his future political career, later on. So far it seems that he will be the driving force in the creation of Vandalia which will later serve as a model for the creation of Chikasaw and Ozarks. These are all large enough political and military tasks that could make his name well known through out the Union.

 

[Venusian Si]

Plus even if he is not in command of the army his popularity can still become big enough that it can boost his future political career, later on. So far it seems that he will be the driving force in the creation of Vandalia which will later serve as a model for the creation of Chikasaw and Ozarks. These are all large enough political and military tasks that could make his name well known through out the Union.

Hmm, I like...I really like this Idea. I mean if a man can successfully create a new state in such an urgent matter, and turn two rebel territories into Loyal States, why shouldn't he have a chance at the White House...Age might be a problem, but a one term presidency for Lee should be no where near as difficult health wise then the hypothetical Confederate presidency he always seems to get.

Andwe have another fun possibility! If Vandalia, Chikasaw,and Ozark are the only regions to become States during the War/Reconstruction period, then this United States should reach exactly 40 States without evening touching the rest of its Western Territory.

 

[QuoProQuid]

I just read through your timeline and I must say that I am truly enjoying it. I like how things are turning out so far. How do you plan on this version of the Civil War affecting technology and military strategy?

Unlike many of your other readers, I would really like to see Calafornia annexed eventually. I think that the high Mexican population would create quite a scenerio for the US.

Also, could you please not devestate Cleveland economically in this timeline. Please? We get enough flak as it is for being the 'mistake by the lake' and causing the Cuyahoga River to catch fire.

 

[CT23]

I too would like to see California annexed.

 

[wilcoxchar]

Well minor politicians and regular army colonels both found themselves with stars on their shoulders when the OTL Civil War started. Might not get command of the army as he did, though I suspect he'd at least make Brigadier general.

Well, I was more thinking of having his political career be launched after the war is over, although looking at his health that may not lead to a long career.

Plus even if he is not in command of the army his popularity can still become big enough that it can boost his future political career, later on. So far it seems that he will be the driving force in the creation of Vandalia which will later serve as a model for the creation of Chikasaw and Ozarks. These are all large enough political and military tasks that could make his name well known through out the Union.

Hmm, I like...I really like this Idea. I mean if a man can successfully create a new state in such an urgent matter, and turn two rebel territories into Loyal States, why shouldn't he have a chance at the White House...Age might be a problem, but a one term presidency for Lee should be no where near as difficult health wise then the hypothetical Confederate presidency he always seems to get.

Andwe have another fun possibility! If Vandalia, Chikasaw,and Ozark are the only regions to become States during the War/Reconstruction period, then this United States should reach exactly 40 States without evening touching the rest of its Western Territory.

Yes, Lee's role in the creation of the state of Vandalia will propel his career, but I'm not so sure that the US would want states created from shadow governments to be admitted into the Union should they win.

I just read through your timeline and I must say that I am truly enjoying it. I like how things are turning out so far. How do you plan on this version of the Civil War affecting technology and military strategy?

Unlike many of your other readers, I would really like to see Calafornia annexed eventually. I think that the high Mexican population would create quite a scenerio for the US.

Also, could you please not devestate Cleveland economically in this timeline. Please? We get enough flak as it is for being the 'mistake by the lake' and causing the Cuyahoga River to catch fire.

I too would like to see California annexed.

Hmmmm, I'm still waffling on what I want to do with California.

As for technology, you just gave me an idea for another set off section, technology. So from now on, tech stuff will have its own smaller section. Civil War (or whatever I call it) Tech will be the first section.

And Cleveland, I'll try. Although this may mean it will peak earlier than in OTL.

 

[QuoProQuid]

My apologies for the section on Cleveland. I was rather ill the day I posted and indulging in my own fantasies. You really so not have to do anything about it. At the time, I was dreaming of a technological hub on the Lakes which while cool is a bit (I think the word is..) wanky.

I have a hatred of the the Rust Belt and the constant reminders of an age long gone are a bit annoying.

I am enjoying the timeline so far. Cannot wait to see what you have planned.

 

[jycee]

Andwe have another fun possibility! If Vandalia, Chikasaw,and Ozark are the only regions to become States during the War/Reconstruction period, then this United States should reach exactly 40 States without evening touching the rest of its Western Territory.

40 states!! By 1865 (assuming this civil war is done by then). Plus in OTL by 1965 Oregon, Cali and Nevada where already states, my guess is that with western migration ITTL Colorado (which has already been hinted) and an Oregon state should become states soon.

With so many stars so early on there might be the possibility of altering the flag to a more unifying national symbol. Not just so it does not look overcrowded but so people can relate to it.

Honestly if you have 40 by 1865 and this becomes an ameriwank then you could end up with over 80 states, try to fit that into a flag in an elegant way.

I too would like to see California annexed.

Keep Cali Free!!! Long Live the Republic of the Setting Sun!!!

It is already too much of a diverse and interesting place for Americans to deal with. It is filled with hispanic Catholic, Mormons, Asians (or soon to be filled with), and maybe Russians (I just read that they were not kicked out of Sonoma and Northern Cali in OTL until after the Texan Independence). It is already trying to develop an identity of its own. Plus it will have good wine, good beaches, and easy immigration laws.

 

[Venusian Si]

but I'm not so sure that the US would want states created from shadow governments to be admitted into the Union should they win.

Hmm, okay. How about these two solutions?

#1. If the areas of Chickasaw and Ozark successfully rebel, they'll have to end up as military territories anyway.

Naturally, this will mean that they will have to have a special Military government that couldn't be legally controlled by Missouri, Kentucky, and Tennesse. As such, by the time Reconstruction ends, the people of Chickasaw and Ozark would become to use to their own government, and and stop considering themselves as Missourians, Kentuckians, etc.

As a result, the U.S. "rewards" them with Statehood to gain the loyalty of the local populations, and avoid possible conflicts if the states were reunited.

Or you can go with.

#2. The Union decides to tempt Ozark and Chickasaw to come back to their side during the turning point of the Civil War by offering them statehood after a brief time of "Intergration."

Realizing that the C.S.A. is a sinking ship, they come to the conclusion that the U.S.'s offer is the best one that they have. As a result, the govs. of Chickasaw and Ozark agree, and soon become states during the beginning of the Reconstruction period.

Hmmmm, I'm still waffling on what I want to do with California.

I'll support California joining the Union if all 12 of its original districts are allowed to become 12 States.

40 states!! By 1865 (assuming this civil war is done by then). Plus in OTL by 1965 Oregon, Cali and Nevada where already states, my guess is that with western migration ITTL Colorado (which has already been hinted) and an Oregon state should become states soon.

With so many stars so early on there might be the possibility of altering the flag to a more unifying national symbol. Not just so it does not look overcrowded but so people can relate to it.

Honestly if you have 40 by 1865 and this becomes an ameriwank then you could end up with over 80 states, try to fit that into a flag in an elegant way.

A new design would be cool, but DoD shows that a 75 plus Star U.S. Flag can work.

Still, I would love it if the U.S. went back to the Betsy Ross Circular pattern or have the stars shaped to form a Giant Star representing the Nation to celebrate the Nation's 100th Birthday.

 

[QuoProQuid]

You could always have a flag with thirteen stars (representing the thirteen original colonies) centered around one large star (representing D.C.)

 

[wilcoxchar]

All this discussion of flags reminds me: I haven't even thought about a flag for the CSA! Any suggestions?

 

[QuoProQuid]

I've always been a fan of the Blood Stained Banner.

Mississippi has a cooler version of it that you might be able to use.

EDIT: If you want something completely different, you could try something in the style of Tennessee

 

[Venusian Si]

Mississippi has a cooler version of it that you might be able to use.

The CSA might do a combination of the United Kingdom and France's flag as a way to gain favor. Stupid, but luckily, the world is filled with stupidity.

 

[wilcoxchar]

Tennessee's flag looks Communist.

I do like Mississippi's, although there are only 12 original states in this CSA. I wonder how it would look with the center star removed?

 

[QuoProQuid]

The CSA might do a combination of the United Kingdom and France's flag as a way to gain favor. Stupid, but luckily, the world is filled with stupidity.

Bah, I was not even thinking about the UK and France. I really need to get some sleep.

I suppose the South could try it. I imagine certain individuals would be more eager to support the CSA after the whole Oregon incident. The Civil War could be very interesting, especially with an Independent California.

EDIT: [strike]I assume you mean the 13 Star flag.[/strike]

EDIT 2: I have just realized that the 13 star flag above is essentially the Betsy Ross flag. You might be able to use that. If I remember correctly, the circular pattern was meant to symbolize equality.

EDIT 3: I am truly out of it today. I apologize. Here is the CSA flag without the center star. Now I am off to bed.

 

[lothaw]

Probably be just as confusing as it was OTL with all the different flags.

You'd likely see something similar to the Stars and Bars at first. William Miles, who designed the Confederate Battle Flag lobbied to have it as the CS's national flag OTL but was overruled at first. Beaugard started using it after the Battle of Manasas after the confusion. As he was from South Carolina, he could be more successful.

I never was a big fan of the Stalinless or Blood Stained Banner, but that's just me.

You probably wouldn't see the Bonnie Blue Flag used, since it's orgins pertain to Texas for the most part.

Another possibility is the South Carolina Seccession Flag that was proposed or some variant of it.

 

[wilcoxchar]

South Carlonia's Confederate flag looks awesome although it might be too state-centric for the flag of the entire CSA.

I like the Mississippi flag without the center star. It also symbolizes the more decentralized governmental ideals of the Confederates.


Should get a map of the current situation up soon, although it'll only be based on the usual maps for the moment. I'd like to get a better quality basemap to use for the rest of the war maps but haven't found a good one yet.

 

[lothaw]

Well take away the Palmetto and Crecent Moon and it could work.

 

[wilcoxchar]

Well take away the Palmetto and Crecent Moon and it could work.

Awww, but the crescent and palmetto are part of the reason I like it. Maybe a variation can be used for the Confederate battle flag, but with the cross remaining upright instead of being diagonal as in OTL.