Union and Liberty: An American TL

[Eurofed]

40 states!! By 1865 (assuming this civil war is done by then). Plus in OTL by 1965 Oregon, Cali and Nevada where already states, my guess is that with western migration ITTL Colorado (which has already been hinted) and an Oregon state should become states soon.

With so many stars so early on there might be the possibility of altering the flag to a more unifying national symbol. Not just so it does not look overcrowded but so people can relate to it.

Honestly if you have 40 by 1865 and this becomes an ameriwank then you could end up with over 80 states, try to fit that into a flag in an elegant way.

Amateurs.

My "United States of the Americas" (and Oceania, in the far future) already clocks at 58 North American, Caribbean, and South American states, in 1842, and most of the North, West, and Mexico has still to be settled into states, not to mention future conquests.

 

[jycee]

Amateurs.

My "United States of the Americas" (and Oceania, in the far future) already clocks at 58 North American, Caribbean, and South American states, in 1842, and most of the North, West, and Mexico has still to be settled into states, not to mention future conquests.

It not that it can't be done. It is just that the US flag at 50 states already looks overcrowded and kinda tacky (but I think the latter is just a side effect of it being adapted into underwear and swimsuits).

 

[QuoProQuid]

I have to agree that the United States flag is beginning to look a tad crowded. Should any new states be admitted it may be advisable to have a redesign of the stars.

My personal favorite flags are:
The Betsy Ross flag- I just really like the circular star pattern. It is also one of the first.

The Serapis Flag- It may sound slightly bizarre, but I personally think it looks very nice.

The 51 star flag is interesting as well. It does not look as crowded as the 50 star flag for some reason.

 

[wilcoxchar]

Now that we're on to a new page, time for some images.

First, the CSA's national flag, thanks to QuidProQuid.

Second, the CSA's battle flag. A modification of the South Carolina secessionist flag, removing the crescent and palmetto and shortening the width so only 12 smaller stars are shown.

And finally, a map of the war so far.

 

[QuoProQuid]

I realize I am probably alone, but I think this Civil War is going to last longer than the one in the original timeline. Especially with Cuba participating. It will be interesting to see how Tejas, Houston and the railroad affect this war.

 

[Venusian Si]

Now that we're on to a new page, time for some images.

First, the CSA's national flag, thanks to QuidProQuid.


Second, the CSA's battle flag. A modification of the South Carolina secessionist flag, removing the crescent and palmetto and shortening the width so only 12 smaller stars are shown.


And finally, a map of the war so far.

Love it, especially the Map! But out of curiosity, is the Navel Jack going to be the same ITTL?

 

[lothaw]

The Union may actually have a harder time. There's much more territory nominally under their control that will have strong Southern sympathies, unlike OTL where it was the reverse.

Virginia DID end up seceeding? Missed that. We'll get General Lee afterall then?

 

[wilcoxchar]

Love it, especially the Map! But out of curiosity, is the Navel Jack going to be the same ITTL?

I like the first Naval Jack used by the CSA (7 stars in a circle on a blue field) but I'm not sure what it will end up being.

The Union may actually have a harder time. There's much more territory nominally under their control that will have strong Southern sympathies, unlike OTL where it was the reverse.

Virginia DID end up seceeding? Missed that. We'll get General Lee afterall then?

Well, now both sides have lots of the population with sympathies for the other side. And Virginia did secede, but Lee is still with the Union.

 

[bm79]

Awesome developments, but the rebel state of Ozark gives me heartburn. Southwestern Mizzoo was the most Unionist part of the state. Granted, a lot of people will flee before the "secess," and you'll get rebel sympathisers from the northern part of the state relocating, but still, you've got the recipe for a hornets' nest. Then again, you've just made Missouri TTL's version of Kentucky, in a much more sanguine way. This could get really ugly (interesting in the most Chinese of ways )...

 

[wilcoxchar]

Awesome developments, but the rebel state of Ozark gives me heartburn. Southwestern Mizzoo was the most Unionist part of the state. Granted, a lot of people will flee before the "secess," and you'll get rebel sympathisers from the northern part of the state relocating, but still, you've got the recipe for a hornets' nest. Then again, you've just made Missouri TTL's version of Kentucky, in a much more sanguine way. This could get really ugly (interesting in the most Chinese of ways )...

Bah! Why are all the Union and Confederate loyalists always at the opposite of where they should be! I wonder if there's enough time that I could chalk this up to butterflies...

 

[Venusian Si]

Bah! Why are all the Union and Confederate loyalists always at the opposite of where they should be! I wonder if there's enough time that I could chalk this up to butterflies...

Butterflies should be a fine excuse. If the Region of Calhoun can be so pro-C.S. ITTL, then you should have no problem with crediting migration patterns for Southern Missouri's change of heart.

Also, if the National Flag lacks a star representing the new nation, than shouldn't the battle flag lack the star in the center as well?

 

[jycee]

And finally, a map of the war so far.

Awesome map! But I kinda feel part of Northern Virginia should go to Vandalia, it always seems the W.V. equivalent is identical to OTL's. Which seems to ignore butterflies, other than that it is neat.

I realize I am probably alone, but I think this Civil War is going to last longer than the one in the original timeline. Especially with Cuba participating. It will be interesting to see how Tejas, Houston and the railroad affect this war.

Actually I am starting to think that myself. With no naval blockade the Confederacy will be able to continue supplying itself and thus it might not go bankrupted. Furthermore after the Oregon War England might not be as hesitant in supporting the Confederacy.

However it seem that the idea of secession is much less popular ITTL in the South. Jackson was very much forced to secede and the Texan states as well as Tennessee stayed loyal. So maybe not longer but more violent and less organized. Also because this war started practically out of an angry fit rather than a series of long established problems and differences, less people in the north will be in favor of letting them go.

Awesome developments, but the rebel state of Ozark gives me heartburn. Southwestern Mizzoo was the most Unionist part of the state. Granted, a lot of people will flee before the "secess," and you'll get rebel sympathisers from the northern part of the state relocating, but still, you've got the recipe for a hornets' nest. Then again, you've just made Missouri TTL's version of Kentucky, in a much more sanguine way. This could get really ugly (interesting in the most Chinese of ways )...

Butterflies should be a fine excuse. If the Region of Calhoun can be so pro-C.S. ITTL, then you should have no problem with crediting migration patterns for Southern Missouri's change of heart.

Also, if the National Flag lacks a star representing the new nation, than shouldn't the battle flag lack the star in the center as well?

Venusian Si is right. Butterflies should do it, and it does make sense if Calhoun is very pro confederate, which I will assume it is, because it is very much a mix of the Indian territory and the confederate sympathizers of Kansas in OTL.

And yeah what you have done with Missouri is very cool. Hopping to see some interesting development there.

 

[wilcoxchar]

Butterflies should be a fine excuse. If the Region of Calhoun can be so pro-C.S. ITTL, then you should have no problem with crediting migration patterns for Southern Missouri's change of heart.

Also, if the National Flag lacks a star representing the new nation, than shouldn't the battle flag lack the star in the center as well?

I'm thinking to show that the states are uniting for collective defence while most other areas would be delegated to the individual states. I don't know though, is it too ironic?

Awesome map! But I kinda feel part of Northern Virginia should go to Vandalia, it always seems the W.V. equivalent is identical to OTL's. Which seems to ignore butterflies, other than that it is neat.

OTL's West Virginia actually does include part of what was then northern Viriginia. I'm being different by not including the eastern arm thing.

Actually I am starting to think that myself. With no naval blockade the Confederacy will be able to continue supplying itself and thus it might not go bankrupted. Furthermore after the Oregon War England might not be as hesitant in supporting the Confederacy.

However it seem that the idea of secession is much less popular ITTL in the South. Jackson was very much forced to secede and the Texan states as well as Tennessee stayed loyal. So maybe not longer but more violent and less organized. Also because this war started practically out of an angry fit rather than a series of long established problems and differences, less people in the north will be in favor of letting them go.

Yeah. there are factors present which could make the war last longer or shorter, depending on how things go. I also think I've finally settled on the Interstate War as the short version of the name for the War Between the States.

Venusian Si is right. Butterflies should do it, and it does make sense if Calhoun is very pro confederate, which I will assume it is, because it is very much a mix of the Indian territory and the confederate sympathizers of Kansas in OTL.

And yeah what you have done with Missouri is very cool. Hopping to see some interesting development there.

Don't forget the Dutchmen in Calhoun. That state would be an...interesting place back then.

 

[QuoProQuid]

I do not know if this will help you, but I have a book here with some rough statistics on the Civil War in the OTL.

MILITARY:
The Union outnumbered the Confederacy almost 25 to 1 in navy size.

The Union had 15 times the amount of iron production that the south had.

For every 32 Union firearms, there was one Confederate.

POPULATION

4 million vs 1.1 million eligible for military service

1.1 million vs .1 million industrial workers

21 million vs 9 million total population

-------------------------------------------

I am going to guess that the north will attempt to quarantine Cuba to prevent supplies from reaching it. They will then try to reclaim the island. How effective it will be, I cannot say.

 

[KingByng]

Hmm... will Oaxaca or Tlaxcala perhaps try to retake Veracruz? This war certainly is the opportune moment for such a thing.

 

[jycee]

I do not know if this will help you, but I have a book here with some rough statistics on the Civil War in the OTL.

MILITARY:
The Union outnumbered the Confederacy almost 25 to 1 in navy size.

The Union had 15 times the amount of iron production that the south had.

For every 32 Union firearms, there was one Confederate.

POPULATION

4 million vs 1.1 million eligible for military service

1.1 million vs .1 million industrial workers

21 million vs 9 million total population

-------------------------------------------

I am going to guess that the north will attempt to quarantine Cuba to prevent supplies from reaching it. They will then try to reclaim the island. How effective it will be, I cannot say.

I think the big difference in TTL is the navy. Even if the US still outnumbers the Confederacy has 3 major ports (New Orleans, Havana, and Veracruz) all three were major trading ports and merchant ships can easily turn into light battle ships. The US might try to blockade/quarentine Cuba but it is going to be much harder than the Anaconda plan of OTL.
Everything else might be more or less the same as in OTL but having Calhoun (OTL's Oklahoma and part of Kansas) in the CSA should also give the CSA some Western advantage even if they have lost the Texan states. OTL's Western theater was really what messed up the confederacy. Here I could see the Confederacy being split in half, Jackson is still very pro Union, before each side is fully forced to surrender. Or the war drags long enough that the US accepts CSA independence just of being tired.
I still want to see what Britain's role will be after the Oregon War Britain must be much happier to see the US fall apart than in OTL.

Hmm... will Oaxaca or Tlaxcala perhaps try to retake Veracruz? This war certainly is the opportune moment for such a thing.

Oaxaca might be a bit to far away, but with Juarez and other progressive leaders it might be very pro US, so it might try to help out. Tlaxcala, though nearer to Veracruz, might actually be very pro Southern independence. If not it would still be the most isolationists of the Mexican Nations. My guess is that the bishop, or diode, is a major figure in Tlaxacala and that might grow into a serious Catholic theocracy (even today Poblanos are considered quite mochos, religious, by most Mexicans). So whatever the bishop says probably goes.

 

[QuoProQuid]

I wonder if John Brown is going to make an appearance. It could be fun. For some reason I see him becoming the Guy Fawkes to the South. He is a bit of a madman.

It will be interesting to see how technology is effected by this war. In the OTL, the Civil War caused ballistics technology to take a 60-year lead over normal understanding. It also resulted in a sophistication of military tactics. We could see naval forces becoming very advanced. If the war lasts long, we could see military becoming much more advanced than it should be.

If Britain decides to aid the South (similarly to how the French aided the rebels in the beginning of the Revolutionary War) and the United States catches wind of it, they will not be happy. It could spur isolationism for years to come and reignite Anti-British sentiments.

However, British support may not happen. Has Uncle Tom's Cabin been published in this timeline?

 

[Geekhis Khan]

I wonder if John Brown is going to make an appearance. It could be fun.

Born pre-POD...quite possible.

For some reason I see him becoming the Guy Fawkes to the South. He is a bit of a madman.

He pretty much is OTL. He's very controversial even today, with few middling opinions on him. He's either a martyr that led the freedom crusade for the oppressed, or a terrorist madman who added high octane fuel to the fire and made peaceful compromise impossible, setting the stage for slaughter.

Has Uncle Tom's Cabin been published in this timeline?

HB Stowe was born pre-POD and abolitionism exists TTL, so possibly. And if not UTC, then some book very much like it is likely given the circumstances.

 

[Anasazi]

I just read this time-line, and i must say very well done. Extremely plausible and a mighty good read! Also i do believe that John Brown is already dead in this time-line Thanks again, and i hope to see an update soon!.

 

[lothaw]

I wonder if John Brown is going to make an appearance. It could be fun. For some reason I see him becoming the Guy Fawkes to the South. He is a bit of a madman.

It will be interesting to see how technology is effected by this war. In the OTL, the Civil War caused ballistics technology to take a 60-year lead over normal understanding. It also resulted in a sophistication of military tactics. We could see naval forces becoming very advanced. If the war lasts long, we could see military becoming much more advanced than it should be.

If Britain decides to aid the South (similarly to how the French aided the rebels in the beginning of the Revolutionary War) and the United States catches wind of it, they will not be happy. It could spur isolationism for years to come and reignite Anti-British sentiments.

However, British support may not happen. Has Uncle Tom's Cabin been published in this timeline?

Brown was already killed I believe during the whole Calhoun affair.