Fear, Loathing, and Gumbo/Rumsfeldia Con't

I found this thread literally today, and I have something to share.

I had been writing up a continuation to Rumsfeldia from where it lasted off. Here is what I have wrote up in mind so far:

The first phase Second American Civil War lasts until early 1992, where the CV are defeated in Georgia after being ejected from DC in fall 1991 and getting overwhelmed by the Northeastern resistance (with assistance from Canada, the UK, and France), the Cubans, the western Bozeman Communes, Texas (with some assistance from Mexico), and local resistance. CV holdouts still remain in various parts of the US after the war though, launching a guerilla campaign against the USA.

Much of the US falls into warlordism and anarchy, with various cities and parts of the country being controlled by local paramilitaries. Meanwhile, the Rocky Mountain states would form their own country, (which I am calling Bozemania at the moment) and Cuba would annex the southern tip of Florida. Needless to say, the Second Reconstruction is going to be a long and painful as the US has to deal with the humanitarian and economic aftershocks of the war and the warlords, militias, and terrorist groups that want nothing to do with the federal government.

A Second Constitutional Convention is held later in the year that replaces the 205-year-old Constitution with a more modern code of laws. Richard Nixon is elected President of the Second United States Republic, having led the Northeastern states in the civil war, being seen as the only person capable of the job. Spiro Agnew takes office following Nixon’s death in 1994, and proceeds to make a mess of things in the reconstruction process like he had done in ’73. The 1996 presidential election looked sure to be a victory for the We the People party, only for Agnew to die in office, and is succeeded by Vice President Lowell Weicker, who gets narrowly elected basically for now being Agnew. The major parties in the new political system are the center-left Second American Alliance (a merger between the Democratic-Republican parties), the left-wing populist We the People party, the Libertarian Party, and a reemergent Communist Party USA.

In 1990, much of Southern Africa gets turned to glass by Magnus Malan as he increasingly loses his grip on South Africa. Between this, the CVs’ nuking of American cities, and the eruption of Mount Pinatubo in 1991, the early 1990s would see global temperatures plummet and bring a new set of problems to a world stressed by civil conflict and warfare. Areas of Southern Africa would be rendered inhospitable, the rest would be governed by warlords who would constantly clash with each other over border disputes. The Indian Civil War ends at some point in the decade, and leaves India in a balkanized state.

The global situation would be dominated between the liberal democratic Western European nations + Canada & Australia, and the communist, authoritarian Soviet Union and its satellite states. Both factions would continue to treat each other like kids’ gloves going into the 1990s and 2000s, with those relations souring in the 2010s as the Soviet Union slowly reverts back to its authoritarian pre-Rhyzkov self. There are rays of hope though. Some nations, like South Korea and Israel, would eventually democratize by the year 2000. The nuclear disasters in China, India, the USA, and Southern Africa would convince the remaining nuclear powers to disarm.

What do you think so far?
 
Considering how badly the US had it I would believe the US would be more divided with multiple new nations being created especially in the south where there would still be division between black and white. The upper north would probably also leave since they would be an area heavily affected by Theocratic rule and would have great antagonism between them and the rest of the former US.
In 1990, much of Southern Africa gets turned to glass by Magnus Malan as he increasingly loses his grip on South Africa. Between this, the CVs’ nuking of American cities, and the eruption of Mount Pinatubo in 1991, the early 1990s would see global temperatures plummet and bring a new set of problems to a world stressed by civil conflict and warfare. Areas of Southern Africa would be rendered inhospitable, the rest would be governed by warlords who would constantly clash with each other over border disputes. The Indian Civil War ends at some point in the decade, and leaves India in a balkanized state.
If global temperatures plummet than so will global food production leading to major troubles in Africa and will likely lead to the major rise of pan-Islamic movements in the region maybe even creating an actual Caliphate that will survive and develop as time goes on since everyone will be to busy with other events to do much about them.
Some nations, like South Korea and Israel, would eventually democratize by the year 2000. The nuclear disasters in China, India, the USA, and Southern Africa would convince the remaining nuclear powers to disarm.
Considering what happened the world is more likely to keep their nukes since nuclear warfare is now real and will have lost a lot of its edge of being world ending since so many nations got nuked yet the world still exists.

Also I do believe China would remain divided considering what happened the last time they were united. Something like Germany where it loses territory.
 
Also anyone have a map of the world or the US since I would rather not go across the entire timeline again at the moment.
 
I found this thread literally today, and I have something to share.

I had been writing up a continuation to Rumsfeldia from where it lasted off. Here is what I have wrote up in mind so far:

The first phase Second American Civil War lasts until early 1992, where the CV are defeated in Georgia after being ejected from DC in fall 1991 and getting overwhelmed by the Northeastern resistance (with assistance from Canada, the UK, and France), the Cubans, the western Bozeman Communes, Texas (with some assistance from Mexico), and local resistance. CV holdouts still remain in various parts of the US after the war though, launching a guerilla campaign against the USA.

Much of the US falls into warlordism and anarchy, with various cities and parts of the country being controlled by local paramilitaries. Meanwhile, the Rocky Mountain states would form their own country, (which I am calling Bozemania at the moment) and Cuba would annex the southern tip of Florida. Needless to say, the Second Reconstruction is going to be a long and painful as the US has to deal with the humanitarian and economic aftershocks of the war and the warlords, militias, and terrorist groups that want nothing to do with the federal government.

A Second Constitutional Convention is held later in the year that replaces the 205-year-old Constitution with a more modern code of laws. Richard Nixon is elected President of the Second United States Republic, having led the Northeastern states in the civil war, being seen as the only person capable of the job. Spiro Agnew takes office following Nixon’s death in 1994, and proceeds to make a mess of things in the reconstruction process like he had done in ’73. The 1996 presidential election looked sure to be a victory for the We the People party, only for Agnew to die in office, and is succeeded by Vice President Lowell Weicker, who gets narrowly elected basically for now being Agnew. The major parties in the new political system are the center-left Second American Alliance (a merger between the Democratic-Republican parties), the left-wing populist We the People party, the Libertarian Party, and a reemergent Communist Party USA.

In 1990, much of Southern Africa gets turned to glass by Magnus Malan as he increasingly loses his grip on South Africa. Between this, the CVs’ nuking of American cities, and the eruption of Mount Pinatubo in 1991, the early 1990s would see global temperatures plummet and bring a new set of problems to a world stressed by civil conflict and warfare. Areas of Southern Africa would be rendered inhospitable, the rest would be governed by warlords who would constantly clash with each other over border disputes. The Indian Civil War ends at some point in the decade, and leaves India in a balkanized state.

The global situation would be dominated between the liberal democratic Western European nations + Canada & Australia, and the communist, authoritarian Soviet Union and its satellite states. Both factions would continue to treat each other like kids’ gloves going into the 1990s and 2000s, with those relations souring in the 2010s as the Soviet Union slowly reverts back to its authoritarian pre-Rhyzkov self. There are rays of hope though. Some nations, like South Korea and Israel, would eventually democratize by the year 2000. The nuclear disasters in China, India, the USA, and Southern Africa would convince the remaining nuclear powers to disarm.

What do you think so far?
Please, please, please write this! My own spinoff avoids Rumsfeldia, which always deserved an ending. I'd like to see the CSA explored a bit more as well.
 
I found this thread literally today, and I have something to share.

I had been writing up a continuation to Rumsfeldia from where it lasted off. Here is what I have wrote up in mind so far:

The first phase Second American Civil War lasts until early 1992, where the CV are defeated in Georgia after being ejected from DC in fall 1991 and getting overwhelmed by the Northeastern resistance (with assistance from Canada, the UK, and France), the Cubans, the western Bozeman Communes, Texas (with some assistance from Mexico), and local resistance. CV holdouts still remain in various parts of the US after the war though, launching a guerilla campaign against the USA.

Much of the US falls into warlordism and anarchy, with various cities and parts of the country being controlled by local paramilitaries. Meanwhile, the Rocky Mountain states would form their own country, (which I am calling Bozemania at the moment) and Cuba would annex the southern tip of Florida. Needless to say, the Second Reconstruction is going to be a long and painful as the US has to deal with the humanitarian and economic aftershocks of the war and the warlords, militias, and terrorist groups that want nothing to do with the federal government.

A Second Constitutional Convention is held later in the year that replaces the 205-year-old Constitution with a more modern code of laws. Richard Nixon is elected President of the Second United States Republic, having led the Northeastern states in the civil war, being seen as the only person capable of the job. Spiro Agnew takes office following Nixon’s death in 1994, and proceeds to make a mess of things in the reconstruction process like he had done in ’73. The 1996 presidential election looked sure to be a victory for the We the People party, only for Agnew to die in office, and is succeeded by Vice President Lowell Weicker, who gets narrowly elected basically for now being Agnew. The major parties in the new political system are the center-left Second American Alliance (a merger between the Democratic-Republican parties), the left-wing populist We the People party, the Libertarian Party, and a reemergent Communist Party USA.

In 1990, much of Southern Africa gets turned to glass by Magnus Malan as he increasingly loses his grip on South Africa. Between this, the CVs’ nuking of American cities, and the eruption of Mount Pinatubo in 1991, the early 1990s would see global temperatures plummet and bring a new set of problems to a world stressed by civil conflict and warfare. Areas of Southern Africa would be rendered inhospitable, the rest would be governed by warlords who would constantly clash with each other over border disputes. The Indian Civil War ends at some point in the decade, and leaves India in a balkanized state.

The global situation would be dominated between the liberal democratic Western European nations + Canada & Australia, and the communist, authoritarian Soviet Union and its satellite states. Both factions would continue to treat each other like kids’ gloves going into the 1990s and 2000s, with those relations souring in the 2010s as the Soviet Union slowly reverts back to its authoritarian pre-Rhyzkov self. There are rays of hope though. Some nations, like South Korea and Israel, would eventually democratize by the year 2000. The nuclear disasters in China, India, the USA, and Southern Africa would convince the remaining nuclear powers to disarm.

What do you think so far?
I love the alternative climate change that you take into account. It may be worthy of a TL of its own (that coupled with the dramatically reduced human population would mean less global warming).

I can picture the CV's last holdouts being the Applachians and some parts of the Midwest, especially Indiana. As of the "Rummyhorror" update, even the Deep South has the revolting Baptists and "Alliance of the Extremists" (including the KKK). Later updates added the Cajuns and Catholics of Louisiana to the picture. The Applachians seem like the best place for a final hideout due to ideological symathy and strong natural defences (akin to the Hindu Kush's role for the Taliban, Al-Qaeda, and other jihadists).

Magnus Malan's "base" would be the Boers of the Orange Free State. Updates in the original TL indicate that even the Boers of the Cape were rebelling against the Malan regime due to the effects of chemical and biological weapons on the crops of their farmers. I can picture the Orange Free State as being the equivalent of the Alawaite home regions of Syria that ended up as OTL Assad of Syria last "base" of power.

Paul Wellstone would be a great candidate IMO for the Midwest Ron Dellums:

 
I love the alternative climate change that you take into account. It may be worthy of a TL of its own (that coupled with the dramatically reduced human population would mean less global warming).

I can picture the CV's last holdouts being the Applachians and some parts of the Midwest, especially Indiana. As of the "Rummyhorror" update, even the Deep South has the revolting Baptists and "Alliance of the Extremists" (including the KKK). Later updates added the Cajuns and Catholics of Louisiana to the picture. The Applachians seem like the best place for a final hideout due to ideological symathy and strong natural defences (akin to the Hindu Kush's role for the Taliban, Al-Qaeda, and other jihadists).

Magnus Malan's "base" would be the Boers of the Orange Free State. Updates in the original TL indicate that even the Boers of the Cape were rebelling against the Malan regime due to the effects of chemical and biological weapons on the crops of their farmers. I can picture the Orange Free State as being the equivalent of the Alawaite home regions of Syria that ended up as OTL Assad of Syria last "base" of power.

Paul Wellstone would be a great candidate IMO for the Midwest Ron Dellums:

What I had in mind for the post-Malan South Africa was that the whole region would fall into complete anarchy as the region’s remaining populace struggle to survive in the post-apocalyptic landscape. Entire nations would be replaced by racial-political microstates and city states, with the rest being held by warlords and small communities that do not wish to join them. And, unlike the United States, there would not be immediate help from the international community as they would be busy with the United States (that is if they already even have the resources to provide aid to America to begin with). That aid would probably come later, and there would also be an attempt to preserve the local wildlife, as many specimen would’ve been driven to, or be close to, extinction, due to all the chemical and nuclear contamination. Malan himself probably ends up getting killed by his own advisories for unleashing such destruction.

As for the CV’s in my notes I would have the war come to a brutal stalemate until 1991, as the CV’s material supply and militaristic capabilities dry up, being attacked on all sides, allowing the Northeastern rebels to retake a heavily damaged Washington DC in September 1991, and forcing the CV’s to retreat to Georgia, as I had believed the Deep South (minus Alabama) was where the CV had the most support. But you are correct that the Appalachia would be a good hiding spot for for CV’s due to its natural defenses of sprawling mountains and lack of human development. The CV would then lose all control they have on their territories as they are quickly eaten up by opposing forces.

But once the Christian States of America collapses, the rebel groups who fought the CV would scramble to take control of the huge vestiges of land left in their wake and turn onto each other. Thus would end the “hot phase” of the war, represented by a fanatical group of zealots creating as much death and destruction as possible, including through the use of weapons of mass destruction, in the name of creating a uber-religious, hyper-reactionary society as they struggle to retain control of the former USA from opposing forces and states. This would be followed by a “warm phase” of the war, which would mostly be a conflict between the Northern eastern rump government and the warring groups inside the US heartland that coming in all sorts of ideologies and would discriminate and kill people based on their class, race, religion, etc.

In my notes I had Paul Wellstone running and losing against Weicker’s successor, George Pataki, in the 2004 presidential election. I also had planned to have Bernie Sanders run as the WtP candidate in 1996, and then winning the presidency in 2008, although I may have to this depending on what the site’s current politics policy says what I could and could not do on this forum.
 
What I had in mind for the post-Malan South Africa was that the whole region would fall into complete anarchy as the region’s remaining populace struggle to survive in the post-apocalyptic landscape. Entire nations would be replaced by racial-political microstates and city states, with the rest being held by warlords and small communities that do not wish to join them. And, unlike the United States, there would not be immediate help from the international community as they would be busy with the United States (that is if they already even have the resources to provide aid to America to begin with). That aid would probably come later, and there would also be an attempt to preserve the local wildlife, as many specimen would’ve been driven to, or be close to, extinction, due to all the chemical and nuclear contamination. Malan himself probably ends up getting killed by his own advisories for unleashing such destruction.

As for the CV’s in my notes I would have the war come to a brutal stalemate until 1991, as the CV’s material supply and militaristic capabilities dry up, being attacked on all sides, allowing the Northeastern rebels to retake a heavily damaged Washington DC in September 1991, and forcing the CV’s to retreat to Georgia, as I had believed the Deep South (minus Alabama) was where the CV had the most support. But you are correct that the Appalachia would be a good hiding spot for for CV’s due to its natural defenses of sprawling mountains and lack of human development. The CV would then lose all control they have on their territories as they are quickly eaten up by opposing forces.

But once the Christian States of America collapses, the rebel groups who fought the CV would scramble to take control of the huge vestiges of land left in their wake and turn onto each other. Thus would end the “hot phase” of the war, represented by a fanatical group of zealots creating as much death and destruction as possible, including through the use of weapons of mass destruction, in the name of creating a uber-religious, hyper-reactionary society as they struggle to retain control of the former USA from opposing forces and states. This would be followed by a “warm phase” of the war, which would mostly be a conflict between the Northern eastern rump government and the warring groups inside the US heartland that coming in all sorts of ideologies and would discriminate and kill people based on their class, race, religion, etc.

In my notes I had Paul Wellstone running and losing against Weicker’s successor, George Pataki, in the 2004 presidential election. I also had planned to have Bernie Sanders run as the WtP candidate in 1996, and then winning the presidency in 2008, although I may have to this depending on what the site’s current politics policy says what I could and could not do on this forum.
Did you have any plans for China, especially the "Caliphate"? This reality was really shaping up to be a Pakistan-wank reality as it takes advantage of India crumbling under Sanjay Gandhi and the chaos of post-Lesser Mao China. This outcome may not be as far-fetched as it would seem today as Pakistan used to be wealthier than India when the latter was under the Licence Raj!


No offence but I don't see Sanders as becoming as distinguished as he did in OTL by being the "protest candidate" in 2016. I can see Lenora Fulani, who in OTL ran on the fringe "New Alliance Party" in 1988 and 1992, becoming a much more distinguished figure in the post-Rumsfeldia, post-CV USA. To me, she very much fits the image of a WTP activist:



Overall, I can see quite a few parts of the world at the turn of the millennium becoming "OTL Somalia on steroids" as warlord-torn no-mans lands.
 
Did you have any plans for China, especially the "Caliphate"? This reality was really shaping up to be a Pakistan-wank reality as it takes advantage of India crumbling under Sanjay Gandhi and the chaos of post-Lesser Mao China. This outcome may not be as far-fetched as it would seem today as Pakistan used to be wealthier than India when the latter was under the Licence Raj!


The The Western Chinese Caliphate would likely end up seizing most of central China, which by the late 80s is still mostly run by the local warlords, and force the Republic of China to stop in their tracks, though they'll likely lose their some of their western regions to the Soviets. What happens to Tibet (which is also fighting the Caliphate) I have no Idea. The Caliphate would most likely be have a loose form of government, with various regions being run by a council or Mufti. The Caliphate would remain mostly isolated from the rest of the world ala OTL North Korea, though there would be accusations of state-sponsored terrorism. Internal resistance would be almost nonexistence, because being a authoritarian, fundamentalist caliphate is paradise compared to the Lesser Mao and the ruin he left behind.

Pakistan will be successful in the short term... I have plans for the what happens to the country in the 2000s.
 

Beatriz

Gone Fishin'
could something like the process described below happen to a country in Rumsfeldia?
IMG_0658.jpeg
 
I found this thread literally today, and I have something to share.

I had been writing up a continuation to Rumsfeldia from where it lasted off. Here is what I have wrote up in mind so far:

The first phase Second American Civil War lasts until early 1992, where the CV are defeated in Georgia after being ejected from DC in fall 1991 and getting overwhelmed by the Northeastern resistance (with assistance from Canada, the UK, and France), the Cubans, the western Bozeman Communes, Texas (with some assistance from Mexico), and local resistance. CV holdouts still remain in various parts of the US after the war though, launching a guerilla campaign against the USA.

Much of the US falls into warlordism and anarchy, with various cities and parts of the country being controlled by local paramilitaries. Meanwhile, the Rocky Mountain states would form their own country, (which I am calling Bozemania at the moment) and Cuba would annex the southern tip of Florida. Needless to say, the Second Reconstruction is going to be a long and painful as the US has to deal with the humanitarian and economic aftershocks of the war and the warlords, militias, and terrorist groups that want nothing to do with the federal government.

A Second Constitutional Convention is held later in the year that replaces the 205-year-old Constitution with a more modern code of laws. Richard Nixon is elected President of the Second United States Republic, having led the Northeastern states in the civil war, being seen as the only person capable of the job. Spiro Agnew takes office following Nixon’s death in 1994, and proceeds to make a mess of things in the reconstruction process like he had done in ’73. The 1996 presidential election looked sure to be a victory for the We the People party, only for Agnew to die in office, and is succeeded by Vice President Lowell Weicker, who gets narrowly elected basically for now being Agnew. The major parties in the new political system are the center-left Second American Alliance (a merger between the Democratic-Republican parties), the left-wing populist We the People party, the Libertarian Party, and a reemergent Communist Party USA.

In 1990, much of Southern Africa gets turned to glass by Magnus Malan as he increasingly loses his grip on South Africa. Between this, the CVs’ nuking of American cities, and the eruption of Mount Pinatubo in 1991, the early 1990s would see global temperatures plummet and bring a new set of problems to a world stressed by civil conflict and warfare. Areas of Southern Africa would be rendered inhospitable, the rest would be governed by warlords who would constantly clash with each other over border disputes. The Indian Civil War ends at some point in the decade, and leaves India in a balkanized state.

The global situation would be dominated between the liberal democratic Western European nations + Canada & Australia, and the communist, authoritarian Soviet Union and its satellite states. Both factions would continue to treat each other like kids’ gloves going into the 1990s and 2000s, with those relations souring in the 2010s as the Soviet Union slowly reverts back to its authoritarian pre-Rhyzkov self. There are rays of hope though. Some nations, like South Korea and Israel, would eventually democratize by the year 2000. The nuclear disasters in China, India, the USA, and Southern Africa would convince the remaining nuclear powers to disarm.

What do you think so far?

These are all interesting ideas.

Let me add the few things:

I think the Rocky Mountain states, plus a few other Midwestern states that were thrown in, wouldn't call themselves "Bozemania." I think they might call themselves the Western Union, or Western Confederation of America.

I picture Texas and Mexico having an alliance similar to the OTL special relationship.

I think we'd see the CSA becoming staggeringly more brutal and genocidal as the war went on.

Would Agnew really become President, since a lot of people would blame him for a lot of wreckage of TTL America? I figure that after a new American constitution, the American people would pick someone who hadn't played a role in TTL America's decay.

I would love to see this TL come back.

Considering how badly the US had it I would believe the US would be more divided with multiple new nations being created especially in the south where there would still be division between black and white. The upper north would probably also leave since they would be an area heavily affected by Theocratic rule and would have great antagonism between them and the rest of the former US.

Would the Northern states pull a Singapore and deliberate kick the South out of the US? Considering the fanatics used WMDs, I think the Northerners might regret not letting the South secede after the civil war.


I love the alternative climate change that you take into account. It may be worthy of a TL of its own (that coupled with the dramatically reduced human population would mean less global warming).

I can picture the CV's last holdouts being the Applachians and some parts of the Midwest, especially Indiana. As of the "Rummyhorror" update, even the Deep South has the revolting Baptists and "Alliance of the Extremists" (including the KKK). Later updates added the Cajuns and Catholics of Louisiana to the picture. The Applachians seem like the best place for a final hideout due to ideological symathy and strong natural defences (akin to the Hindu Kush's role for the Taliban, Al-Qaeda, and other jihadists).

Magnus Malan's "base" would be the Boers of the Orange Free State. Updates in the original TL indicate that even the Boers of the Cape were rebelling against the Malan regime due to the effects of chemical and biological weapons on the crops of their farmers. I can picture the Orange Free State as being the equivalent of the Alawaite home regions of Syria that ended up as OTL Assad of Syria last "base" of power.

Paul Wellstone would be a great candidate IMO for the Midwest Ron Dellums:


I don't think the dramatic climate change would lead to Paul Erlich-style famines. But I think it could definitely lead to a lot of political revolutions. OTL, the Arab Spring was, in part, caused by climate change forcing a lot of rural migrants in Arab countries to the cities where they became an angry urban class.

People in the original thread said democracy might be dead, but the damage caused by climate change could be a fuel for political revolution to topple corrupt governments.


What I had in mind for the post-Malan South Africa was that the whole region would fall into complete anarchy as the region’s remaining populace struggle to survive in the post-apocalyptic landscape. Entire nations would be replaced by racial-political microstates and city states, with the rest being held by warlords and small communities that do not wish to join them. And, unlike the United States, there would not be immediate help from the international community as they would be busy with the United States (that is if they already even have the resources to provide aid to America to begin with). That aid would probably come later, and there would also be an attempt to preserve the local wildlife, as many specimen would’ve been driven to, or be close to, extinction, due to all the chemical and nuclear contamination. Malan himself probably ends up getting killed by his own advisories for unleashing such destruction.

As for the CV’s in my notes I would have the war come to a brutal stalemate until 1991, as the CV’s material supply and militaristic capabilities dry up, being attacked on all sides, allowing the Northeastern rebels to retake a heavily damaged Washington DC in September 1991, and forcing the CV’s to retreat to Georgia, as I had believed the Deep South (minus Alabama) was where the CV had the most support. But you are correct that the Appalachia would be a good hiding spot for for CV’s due to its natural defenses of sprawling mountains and lack of human development. The CV would then lose all control they have on their territories as they are quickly eaten up by opposing forces.

But once the Christian States of America collapses, the rebel groups who fought the CV would scramble to take control of the huge vestiges of land left in their wake and turn onto each other. Thus would end the “hot phase” of the war, represented by a fanatical group of zealots creating as much death and destruction as possible, including through the use of weapons of mass destruction, in the name of creating a uber-religious, hyper-reactionary society as they struggle to retain control of the former USA from opposing forces and states. This would be followed by a “warm phase” of the war, which would mostly be a conflict between the Northern eastern rump government and the warring groups inside the US heartland that coming in all sorts of ideologies and would discriminate and kill people based on their class, race, religion, etc.

In my notes I had Paul Wellstone running and losing against Weicker’s successor, George Pataki, in the 2004 presidential election. I also had planned to have Bernie Sanders run as the WtP candidate in 1996, and then winning the presidency in 2008, although I may have to this depending on what the site’s current politics policy says what I could and could not do on this forum.

In this environment, would the CV resemble the KKK and other white supremacist movements in the 1870s? A radical reactionary group ready to drive out the carpetbaggers? Only this time, the federal government wouldn't give an inch since these maniacs committed acts of nuclear terrorism.

Many people in the Rumsfeldia TL picture someone like Bill Clinton or Jimmy Carter becoming America's Konrad Adenauer. Could Wellstone have the same national appeal?


The The Western Chinese Caliphate would likely end up seizing most of central China, which by the late 80s is still mostly run by the local warlords, and force the Republic of China to stop in their tracks, though they'll likely lose their some of their western regions to the Soviets. What happens to Tibet (which is also fighting the Caliphate) I have no Idea. The Caliphate would most likely be have a loose form of government, with various regions being run by a council or Mufti. The Caliphate would remain mostly isolated from the rest of the world ala OTL North Korea, though there would be accusations of state-sponsored terrorism. Internal resistance would be almost nonexistence, because being a authoritarian, fundamentalist caliphate is paradise compared to the Lesser Mao and the ruin he left behind.

Pakistan will be successful in the short term... I have plans for the what happens to the country in the 2000s.

I picture the Western Chinese Caliphate being such a threat, that the ROC and the remains of the PRC would join together to stop this mutual threat, even recognizing borders with one another to keep the jihadi Chinese at bay.


This is a PBS video I can picture of a post-independence, post-Rumsfeldia Hawaii in 1988:

I think an independent Hawaii would push for a strong revival of Hawaiian tradition, both for nationalistic reasons. But I also imagine them digging up the brutal treatment of Hawaiians by Stanford Dole and his ilk, because pushing the "America is an evil empire" narrative is a good fiction to wanting to maintain independence.

I can definitely seeing this song becoming a catchy rallying cry in McCloskey's California in the Rumsfeldia TL:


Yeah, it does sound like something that could be played by a high school marching band.

But I picture California Dreaming could also be a good candidate, since it is a song celebratory of California with enormous cultural recognition.
 
Rick Perlstein (who Drew cited as reading) needs to read the Spiro Agnew timeline in response to his evaluation of the OTL legacy of Dr. K!

 
Why? Has the Gumbo TL made you think that Kissinger was the lesser evil compared to Agnew?

And Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney.

Don't tell me the consequences of the Agnew policy in the Middle East (especially Syria) and Asia (especially regarding the isolation of China) at least resulted in far more horrific consequences than Nixon-Kissinger in OTL. For example, in this TL, Saudi Arabia collapses into anarchy and takeover by Salafist militias due in large part to the Bayanouni Caliphate in post-Assad Syria.
 
And Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney.

Don't tell me the consequences of the Agnew policy in the Middle East (especially Syria) and Asia (especially regarding the isolation of China) at least resulted in far more horrific consequences than Nixon-Kissinger in OTL. For example, in this TL, Saudi Arabia collapses into anarchy and takeover by Salafist militias due in large part to the Bayanouni Caliphate in post-Assad Syria.

I think slamming the door in Mao's face, which opened the door to an even psychotic Mao, a worse drug war, and China collapsing into an absolutely brutal warring states period, will be seen as the worst foreign policy choice of Agnew.

But Agnew's worst legacy will be the man who opened the door to Rumsfeldia: his divisive and polarizing politics, his hypernationalism, his returning America to Vietnam, his disastrous economic policies, and instilling in Americans a tremendous distrust of their institutions will be seen as the thing that set the stage for America's fall as a superpower.
 
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