Fear, Loathing, and Gumbo/Rumsfeldia Con't

[David Ritz]

I think slamming the door in Mao's face, which opened the door to an even psychotic Mao, a worse drug war, and China collapsing into an absolutely brutal warring states period, will be seen as the worst foreign policy choice of Agnew.

But Agnew's worst legacy will be the man who opened the door to Rumsfeldia: his divisive and polarizing politics, his hypernationalism, his returning America to Vietnam, his disastrous economic policies, and instilling in Americans a tremendous distrust of their institutions will be seen as the thing that set the stage for America's fall as a superpower.

To fair, the Mongolian War with the USSR also played an important role in the hardliners taking power in China (and ultimately Mao Yuanxin).

The increased distrust of institutions and poor economic policies also paved the way the victory of George Wallace, which in many ways did more to pave the way for Rumsfeldia both by providing a model for a excessively populist-sounding executive as well as fracturing the two-party system (which Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney (and later the CV)) were able to exploit.

 

[David Ritz]

I think slamming the door in Mao's face, which opened the door to an even psychotic Mao, a worse drug war, and China collapsing into an absolutely brutal warring states period, will be seen as the worst foreign policy choice of Agnew.

But Agnew's worst legacy will be the man who opened the door to Rumsfeldia: his divisive and polarizing politics, his hypernationalism, his returning America to Vietnam, his disastrous economic policies, and instilling in Americans a tremendous distrust of their institutions will be seen as the thing that set the stage for America's fall as a superpower.

One of favourite parts of the Gumboverse is the conversation between Nixon and Agnew just before the latter takes over. It foreshadows so much to come in the years ahead and ultimately represents the true "turning point" of this TL, not Gov. McKeithen's presidential itchings:

Fear, Loathing and Gumbo on the Campaign Trail '72

I would have thought that Speaker Albert & Senator Eastland & company would have set the date for a joint session of Congress to count the electoral votes as soon as the SCOTUS handed down their decisions. Some notification of when the joint sesion of congress will occur should probably have...

www.alternatehistory.com

 

[Tsar Nicholas The Cringe]

To fair, the Mongolian War with the USSR also played an important role in the hardliners taking power in China (and ultimately Mao Yuanxin).

The increased distrust of institutions and poor economic policies also paved the way the victory of George Wallace, which in many ways did more to pave the way for Rumsfeldia both by providing a model for a excessively populist-sounding executive as well as fracturing the two-party system (which Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney (and later the CV)) were able to exploit.

And in turn, Cheney's construction of a corporatist police state regime set the stage for the Second American Civil War. Cheney created a monster that he foolishly thought he could control.

To think all this happened because of a Greek dude who moved to America. And if not for the Myceneans, there never would Greece. So America being destroyed is all the fault of those dastardly Cretans! There would've been I imagine stories where Agnew's father stayed in Greece would be as common as Hitler dying in the trenches.

But the story of America's TTL decay and collapse will be a subject that could potentially fill whole libraries. The tragedy and horror of a society falling so far would be captivating to read about, but it would also offer future generations sobering lessons about governance, nation-building, and how democracies are not an inevitable progression, but can also have serious flaws that leave them open for manipulation.

Hell, the subject alone could probably take up the entire semester of a political science class.

One of favourite parts of the Gumboverse is the conversation between Nixon and Agnew just before the latter takes over. It foreshadows so much to come in the years ahead and ultimately represents the true "turning point" of this TL, not Gov. McKeithen's presidential itchings:

Fear, Loathing and Gumbo on the Campaign Trail '72

I would have thought that Speaker Albert & Senator Eastland & company would have set the date for a joint session of Congress to count the electoral votes as soon as the SCOTUS handed down their decisions. Some notification of when the joint sesion of congress will occur should probably have...

www.alternatehistory.com

What the "turning point" was will be that big "what if" question. I think the conversation at Agnew's impeachment trial was a turning point an American society.

Rep. Barbara Jordan (D-TX): So you are happy to let a felon occupy the highest office in our land? How about you Professor Bork? Doesn't it trouble you that a criminal is sitting the President's office conducting the business of our nation?

Bork: That is uncalled for! The President has acted legally while he was President, and what came before no longer matters.

Rodino: Maybe not to the President, but to the rest of us it does. I for one do not accept that the President is above the law, and I doubt the founders intended the pardon clause in our Constitution as an opening for the President to abuse his powers to cover his own backside.

Bork: Clearly, Mr. Chairman, you were not the star of your Constitutional law class.

Rodino: Oh? Where were you in yours, Professor? The Constitution I know was written to uphold the rule of law, not get around it.

Lott: You are deliberately confusing the point.

Rodino: Let me be specific then. Professor Bork, is the President above the law?

Bork: That's a complicated question, Mr. Chairman.

McClory: And a misleading one.

Rodino: Not really, Professor, yes or no?

Bork: Well then, for purposes of this hearing, yes he is.

Rodino: And that answer tells us why we must impeach the man.

Agnew's own lunacy and corruption isn't that shocking. What's shocking is how people like Trent Lott and Robert Bork were so taken in by this brand of doublethink and ideological extremism that they would happily tear down their own society and loot what remained.

 

[David Ritz]

But the story of America's TTL decay and collapse will be a subject that could potentially fill whole libraries. The tragedy and horror of a society falling so far would be captivating to read about, but it would also offer future generations sobering lessons about governance, nation-building, and how democracies are not an inevitable progression, but can also have serious flaws that leave them open for manipulation.

A key deconstructive theme of Drew's TL is the idea that stronger third parties would improve American politics. Somewhere early in Gumbo, Drew prophetically states that any serious third party could seriously de-stabilize the United States as George Wallace nearly did in OTL 1968.

 

[Tsar Nicholas The Cringe]

A key deconstructive theme of Drew's TL is the idea that stronger third parties would improve American politics. Somewhere early in Gumbo, Drew prophetically states that any serious third party could seriously de-stabilize the United States as George Wallace nearly did in OTL 1968.

The fact that the dreamed-of multiparty system that Americans wanted instead led to democracy's decay would, again, be a very unsettling but important subject of intense study by future historians and political scientists.

 

[David Ritz]

An interesting minor factoid about the Gumboverse (on top of everything else) - there wouldn't be the stereotype of the Vietnamese nail salonist!

How Tippi Hedren made Vietnamese refugees into nail salon magnates

After the fall of Saigon, refugees from Vietnam fled to California, where actress Tippi Hedren changed their lives - and the beauty industry in Los Angeles.

www.google.com

 

[Tsar Nicholas The Cringe]

An interesting minor factoid about the Gumboverse (on top of everything else) - there wouldn't be the stereotype of the Vietnamese nail salonist!

How Tippi Hedren made Vietnamese refugees into nail salon magnates

After the fall of Saigon, refugees from Vietnam fled to California, where actress Tippi Hedren changed their lives - and the beauty industry in Los Angeles.

www.google.com

Butterflies are an interesting thing indeed...

 

[the Imperium of Canada]

Honestly I figured you'd need a PoD way further back to justify the sheer breakdown the US goes through in Rumsfeldia. At the very least back to the 50s, probably some absolute catastrophe of an Administration like what happens in a World of Laughter, leaving to increasing domestic instability and a drift towards authoritarianism.

Also Rumsfeldia helped popularize the annoying kill-peopleist China trope,  which is frustrating .

 

[David Ritz]

I found another good foreshadow by Drew:

"That would have been one branch, more or less the opposite of OTL. But that didn't seem like enough of a challenge for this TL. But then, since Wallace was no Carter, we can hardly expect Rumsfeld to be a Reagan...just a real sob, as Nixon once put it."

Fear, Loathing and Gumbo on the Campaign Trail '72

Why do I get the feeling that in regards to these Argentine students, everything that can go wrong for Britain will go wrong? OTL Thatcher had the easy choice of standing-up to an armed intrusion. Not so easy for Mr. Healey.

www.alternatehistory.com

 

[Tsar Nicholas The Cringe]

I found another good foreshadow by Drew:

"That would have been one branch, more or less the opposite of OTL. But that didn't seem like enough of a challenge for this TL. But then, since Wallace was no Carter, we can hardly expect Rumsfeld to be a Reagan...just a real sob, as Nixon once put it."

Fear, Loathing and Gumbo on the Campaign Trail '72

Why do I get the feeling that in regards to these Argentine students, everything that can go wrong for Britain will go wrong? OTL Thatcher had the easy choice of standing-up to an armed intrusion. Not so easy for Mr. Healey.

www.alternatehistory.com

There is a difference between being an SOB and building such a horrendous police state that the country died.

 

[David Ritz]

An actual quote from Milton Friedman:

Milton Friedman, Ronald Reagan — and Rumsfeld?

391: “I believe that Reagan made a mistake when he chose Bush as his vice-presidential candidate — indeed, I regard it as the worst decision not only of his campaign but of his presiden…

michaelperelman.wordpress.com

 

[sampleswift]

Honestly I figured you'd need a PoD way further back to justify the sheer breakdown the US goes through in Rumsfeldia. At the very least back to the 50s, probably some absolute catastrophe of an Administration like what happens in a World of Laughter, leaving to increasing domestic instability and a drift towards authoritarianism.

Also Rumsfeldia helped popularize the annoying kill-peopleist China trope,  which is frustrating .

For me, the catastrophe of an administration that is Rumsfeld's administration became unrealistic with the "Rummyhorror" update. That total of a collapse seemed very strange even with how bad Rumsfeld was. I thought the "Handmaid's Tale" expy was too crazy to happen.

 

[Tsar Nicholas The Cringe]

An actual quote from Milton Friedman:

Milton Friedman, Ronald Reagan — and Rumsfeld?

391: “I believe that Reagan made a mistake when he chose Bush as his vice-presidential candidate — indeed, I regard it as the worst decision not only of his campaign but of his presiden…

michaelperelman.wordpress.com

ITTL, Friedman would be like, "I dun goofed, but Rummy wasn't that bad."

OTL, what was his criticism of the Clinton and Bush years?

For me, the catastrophe of an administration that is Rumsfeld's administration became unrealistic with the "Rummyhorror" update. That total of a collapse seemed very strange even with how bad Rumsfeld was. I thought the "Handmaid's Tale" expy was too crazy to happen.

Of course. I can't possibly happen here, can it?

But then again, we've never been in a situation where a complete religious fanatic had absolute executive authority, combined with years of a major media studio preaching against the "others."

 

[David Ritz]

OTL, what was his criticism of the Clinton and Bush years?

I'm not sure.

 

[THE KINGFISH]

You know, as I’ve been reading through Gumbo myself, there’s a question I’ve been asking myself: Since everything that happens in the TL happened because John McKeithen ran for President in 1972, what if he didn’t die in that plane crash - and thus he takes the Presidency away from Agnew in August 1973? How would McKeithen handle Vietnam and the Middle East compared to Agnew and Gavin? Would him living mean the Gumboverse is less chaotic, or would it simply be chaos in a different direction (Israel using the Samson Option rather than Syria collapsing)? Is McKeithen reelected in 1976?

 

[Sir William Jol]

You know, as I’ve been reading through Gumbo myself, there’s a question I’ve been asking myself: Since everything that happens in the TL happened because John McKeithen ran for President in 1972, what if he didn’t die in that plane crash - and thus he takes the Presidency away from Agnew in August 1973? How would McKeithen handle Vietnam and the Middle East compared to Agnew and Gavin? Would him living mean the Gumboverse is less chaotic, or would it simply be chaos in a different direction (Israel using the Samson Option rather than Syria collapsing)? Is McKeithen reelected in 1976?

I believe Drew mentioned at some point or another, or at least hinted at, that if McKeithen had lived then another Watergate-level scandal or something similar would occur (apparently McKeithen was known for utilizing dirty tricks of his own in Louisiana) destabilizing his administration and resulting in his resignation approximately round the same time Nixon resigned IOTL. Then Birch Bayh would probably lose re-election in 1976 to Reagan given that Reagan was so close in FLG to winning Hawaii (basically Florida 2000 but 24 years earlier) and beating Wallace. Then he loses re-election to Hugh Carey in 1980 due to the recession the late '70s and international upheaval. Then it starts to get murky. There was a non-canon update to Rumsfeldia after it ended wherein a user posited the idea of Rumsfeld losing in 1980 to Carey and returning to Illinois with his tail in between his legs. Carey would lose re-election in 1984 to liberal Republican Charles Mathias with Richard Lugar as VP. Then in 1988 Mathias declines to run again and Jimmy Carter is elected President in a landslide on a unity ticket between the Dems and the WTP with Pete McCloskey as his Vice President. The one-off ended with Carter taking the oath of office.

 

[Tsar Nicholas The Cringe]

I believe Drew mentioned at some point or another, or at least hinted at, that if McKeithen had lived then another Watergate-level scandal or something similar would occur (apparently McKeithen was known for utilizing dirty tricks of his own in Louisiana) destabilizing his administration and resulting in his resignation approximately round the same time Nixon resigned IOTL. Then Birch Bayh would probably lose re-election in 1976 to Reagan given that Reagan was so close in FLG to winning Hawaii (basically Florida 2000 but 24 years earlier) and beating Wallace. Then he loses re-election to Hugh Carey in 1980 due to the recession the late '70s and international upheaval. Then it starts to get murky. There was a non-canon update to Rumsfeldia after it ended wherein a user posited the idea of Rumsfeld losing in 1980 to Carey and returning to Illinois with his tail in between his legs. Carey would lose re-election in 1984 to liberal Republican Charles Mathias with Richard Lugar as VP. Then in 1988 Mathias declines to run again and Jimmy Carter is elected President in a landslide on a unity ticket between the Dems and the WTP with Pete McCloskey as his Vice President. The one-off ended with Carter taking the oath of office.

So, was Agnew pivotal in setting the stage for the Decade of Tears? His slithering into the Presidency had several knockoff effects.

1. He helped Donald Rumsfeld go from being another White House flunky to the top Presidential adviser, turning him from just another SOB into a psychotically ambitious ideologue.

2. His hardcore right-wing extremism and dogmatic foreign policy effectively laid the groundwork for the TTL rightward shift of the GOP and Rumsfeldia.

3. His horrible antics and corruption eroded faith in the political system more than Watergate and contributed to the breakdown of the two-party system.

4. His rushed impeachment angered right-wing forces and may have accelerated polarization faster than it did OTL.

5. His smashing of the economy through worse inflation and a worse oil crisis contributed to even more political radicalism and further eroded the Keynes consensus.

6. Slamming the door on China led to the rise of the Lesser Mao, who further destabilized America by unleashing an epidemic of heroin.

7. His TV Show on Hughes Network and willingness to become a proud ignoramus contributed to massive political polarization.


Without Agnew coming to power, would the Decade of Tears have been avoided entirely? TTL Newt Gingrich's alternate history has Agnew not reach the Presidency, preventing Rumsfeldia, which is treated in-universe as some right-wing power fantasy.

 

[Sir William Jol]

So, was Agnew pivotal in setting the stage for the Decade of Tears? His slithering into the Presidency had several knockoff effects.

1. He helped Donald Rumsfeld go from being another White House flunky to the top Presidential adviser, turning him from just another SOB into a psychotically ambitious ideologue.

2. His hardcore right-wing extremism and dogmatic foreign policy effectively laid the groundwork for the TTL rightward shift of the GOP and Rumsfeldia.

3. His horrible antics and corruption eroded faith in the political system more than Watergate and contributed to the breakdown of the two-party system.

4. His rushed impeachment angered right-wing forces and may have accelerated polarization faster than it did OTL.

5. His smashing of the economy through worse inflation and a worse oil crisis contributed to even more political radicalism and further eroded the Keynes consensus.

6. Slamming the door on China led to the rise of the Lesser Mao, who further destabilized America by unleashing an epidemic of heroin.

7. His TV Show on Hughes Network and willingness to become a proud ignoramus contributed to massive political polarization.


Without Agnew coming to power, would the Decade of Tears have been avoided entirely? TTL Newt Gingrich's alternate history has Agnew not reach the Presidency, preventing Rumsfeldia, which is treated in-universe as some right-wing power fantasy.

I think the decade would still be much more unstable than IOTL but nowhere near the level of Rumsfeldia's America.

 

[THE KINGFISH]

I think the decade would still be much more unstable than IOTL but nowhere near the level of Rumsfeldia's America.

Partially because China still likely falls under The Lesser Mao while the Soviet Union is still stronger even if McKeithen lives.

 

[THE KINGFISH]

South Africa could also still go full Nazi-mode in that scenario.