Is he really? Has anyone ever done a timeline where he is running a PoW camp trying to build a railway through Thailand?
Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
Is he really? Has anyone ever done a timeline where he is running a PoW camp trying to build a railway through Thailand?
MacArthur could totally plan a way to escape and it will either be glorious or will go down in history as a bold but pointless gesture of defiance. Though...Mac could and would totally do that given that he was one hell of a soldier even if he wasn't so great in the leadership department.
A River Kwai scenario, ridiculous as it would be in reality, would play up his ability to dominate an environment and be a mirror of the occupation of Japan. All the Mac tropes in a situation where all the power is illusory.
OTOH I have no idea what Americans would whistle.
Last edited:
and to make the humiliation complete - gets liberated by the british (or ANZAC troops).
one thing will change though, he will think pretty different about the japanese.
especially if wife & child suffer/die during internment
Last edited:
We assume he is still sane if they have to rescue him, I may not like the man but the way the IJ treated their POWs no one deserves that.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
There can be no question that the events OTTL, have massively diverged from those OOTL, and events ITTL, can and will depending on the region, begin to change from those OOTL. In the Atlantic while the course of the campaign against the German U-Boats will essentially follow the same path, the Germans are going to enjoy a happy time as operation Drum Beat and the poor preparations of the Americans, allow the German submarines significant success in the short term. The lower demands on the British Merchant and Royal Navies, arising from the much greater success in the Mediterranean, will reduce the demands on the Merchant Fleet, as it no longer has to take the long way around the Cape, to supply British forces in the Mediterranean and Far East. And without the Japanese capture of the DEI or Singapore, shipping from Australasia, the DEI, Malaya, Burma and all points west to Suez, can essentially sail independently without the need to convoy. While shipping from South and West Africa, given the availability of airfields once the French West African colonies jump ship and declare for the Free French side. Will not be require anything other than an Armed Merchant Cruise, as an escort south of Dakar, thus decreasing the number of escorts needed and increasing the number available for use in the North Atlantic. The much better performance of the British along with American entry into the war, might cause the Portuguese to allow the establishment of airfields in the Azores much sooner than the did IOTL. Which will seriously aid and improve the Anglo American anti U-Boat campaign, and this will be another step in reducing the U-Boat threat to a manageable level. Until the Germans recall all their submarines back to their bases, there will be a threat, but if only one convoy in ten is being attacked, and only one ship in twenty is sunk or damaged, and it’s costing the Germans one or more submarines to achieve this result. Then the Germans have effectively lost the Battle of the Atlantic, much as they have lost the war.
Britains increasing success in the Mediterranean and its ability to retain its colonial possessions in the Far East. Is going to put the two major neutral nations in the Mediterranean Spain and Turkey, on notice, and both of them are going to be reexamining their positions. Turkey with the British on their southern borders, once they French in the Levent switch sides, is going to be even more reluctant to accommodate the Germans. And is going to increasingly demand hard cash for its vital materials exports to Germany, along with being very reluctant to deport any refugees who manage to cross its borders. And in much the much the same will happen with Spain, already reliant on American for food and fuel imports, it too will be less accommodating to the Germans, and far more friendly to the Anglo Americans. In the Far East British success in repelling the Japanese attack on Burma and holding the assault on Malaya, plus the failure of the Japanese to capture the entire DEI. Is going to make the Thai government seriously reconsider its position, and once the British manage to cross the Malay Thai border, they will definitely start to try to negotiate an accommodation with the British. In South and Latin America, even those governments that had some sympathy for the Germans for what ever reason, are going to increasingly be loudly proclaiming their support for the Anglo American cause. Much the same but on a more muted level, will be the same the same will be occurring with the Swiss and Swedes, who will be reassessing their relationship with Germany. Trapped by geography and circumstances, they have to very carefully, but they will be looking at ways to better their relationship with the Anglo Americans, to ensure that when the Anglo Americans win the war, they have not done anything to seriously upset them. There will be a number of the more intelligent Italians, Bulgarians and Hungarians, who are thinking that maybe they didn’t pick the right side, and it might be sensible to make some approaches to the Anglo Americans.
The post war world and the next few years, are going to be very different to the world OOTL, with nations that were basically on their belly, only being on their knees. While some such as Britain and Holland will be in a much stronger position, especially financially, and France will not having suffered the German takeover of Algeria and Tunisia. And FIC being liberated, much earlier than it was IOTL, and the British handing control over to the French, without the opportunity of various indigenous groups to establish and present themselves as the government. Will despite being strapped for cash, be only on its knees as apposed to flapping around on its belly. It’s process of decolonisation, while violent will be no where near as violent as it was IOTL, and not require them to expend so much political and financial capital. The Dutch will eventually have to relinquish their control of their East Indies, but the East Indies might not be a single nation, but a collection of individual states in a very loss federation. Britain is going to have to grant India its independence, but the process might be slower, and a lot better though out. And without the humanitarian disaster that was the Bengal famine, or the extensive revolts of the Quite India Movement, that occurred partly as a result of the collapse in Malaya, the fall of Singapore, and the arrival of the Japanese on the borders of India, as a result of the conquest of Burma. Britain is going to be in a much stronger position in the East and India, while its position in the Middle East, Mediterranean and Europe, will be far more secure. While there is no doubt that America will be the biggest winner of the war, and the Soviets will never truly recover from their tremendous losses in people, resources and infrastructure. The British despite losing their position as the world’s largest naval power, and having to seriously tighten their belt financially post war, will not be in the same situation as they were IOTL. Not only will they have suffered far less losses of men, they will have spent far less money than they did, as at the same time they were spending, they will have been receiving from the exports of vital raw materials. One thing to contemplate, should the Anglo American forces invade Northern France earlier, will the Germans be able to launch their V-weapons offensive, or could it be eliminated or greatly reduced. Thus saving London in particular from the destruction that occurred during 1944, that not only added to the damage from the Blitz, but destroyed some of the repairs that had started to be made. The survival of one man, and his subsequent effects on British tank and armoured vehicles, is going to have a profound impact on the world OTTL.
RR.
Britains increasing success in the Mediterranean and its ability to retain its colonial possessions in the Far East. Is going to put the two major neutral nations in the Mediterranean Spain and Turkey, on notice, and both of them are going to be reexamining their positions. Turkey with the British on their southern borders, once they French in the Levent switch sides, is going to be even more reluctant to accommodate the Germans. And is going to increasingly demand hard cash for its vital materials exports to Germany, along with being very reluctant to deport any refugees who manage to cross its borders. And in much the much the same will happen with Spain, already reliant on American for food and fuel imports, it too will be less accommodating to the Germans, and far more friendly to the Anglo Americans. In the Far East British success in repelling the Japanese attack on Burma and holding the assault on Malaya, plus the failure of the Japanese to capture the entire DEI. Is going to make the Thai government seriously reconsider its position, and once the British manage to cross the Malay Thai border, they will definitely start to try to negotiate an accommodation with the British. In South and Latin America, even those governments that had some sympathy for the Germans for what ever reason, are going to increasingly be loudly proclaiming their support for the Anglo American cause. Much the same but on a more muted level, will be the same the same will be occurring with the Swiss and Swedes, who will be reassessing their relationship with Germany. Trapped by geography and circumstances, they have to very carefully, but they will be looking at ways to better their relationship with the Anglo Americans, to ensure that when the Anglo Americans win the war, they have not done anything to seriously upset them. There will be a number of the more intelligent Italians, Bulgarians and Hungarians, who are thinking that maybe they didn’t pick the right side, and it might be sensible to make some approaches to the Anglo Americans.
The post war world and the next few years, are going to be very different to the world OOTL, with nations that were basically on their belly, only being on their knees. While some such as Britain and Holland will be in a much stronger position, especially financially, and France will not having suffered the German takeover of Algeria and Tunisia. And FIC being liberated, much earlier than it was IOTL, and the British handing control over to the French, without the opportunity of various indigenous groups to establish and present themselves as the government. Will despite being strapped for cash, be only on its knees as apposed to flapping around on its belly. It’s process of decolonisation, while violent will be no where near as violent as it was IOTL, and not require them to expend so much political and financial capital. The Dutch will eventually have to relinquish their control of their East Indies, but the East Indies might not be a single nation, but a collection of individual states in a very loss federation. Britain is going to have to grant India its independence, but the process might be slower, and a lot better though out. And without the humanitarian disaster that was the Bengal famine, or the extensive revolts of the Quite India Movement, that occurred partly as a result of the collapse in Malaya, the fall of Singapore, and the arrival of the Japanese on the borders of India, as a result of the conquest of Burma. Britain is going to be in a much stronger position in the East and India, while its position in the Middle East, Mediterranean and Europe, will be far more secure. While there is no doubt that America will be the biggest winner of the war, and the Soviets will never truly recover from their tremendous losses in people, resources and infrastructure. The British despite losing their position as the world’s largest naval power, and having to seriously tighten their belt financially post war, will not be in the same situation as they were IOTL. Not only will they have suffered far less losses of men, they will have spent far less money than they did, as at the same time they were spending, they will have been receiving from the exports of vital raw materials. One thing to contemplate, should the Anglo American forces invade Northern France earlier, will the Germans be able to launch their V-weapons offensive, or could it be eliminated or greatly reduced. Thus saving London in particular from the destruction that occurred during 1944, that not only added to the damage from the Blitz, but destroyed some of the repairs that had started to be made. The survival of one man, and his subsequent effects on British tank and armoured vehicles, is going to have a profound impact on the world OTTL.
RR.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
The question has arisen of the British from bases in China being able to bomb or mine Japan. Given that the British didn’t produce a bomber during the war,that had the range, or perfect inflight refuelling, to provide the range. To enable a bomber to conduct a round trip with a suitable safety margin, from ether the Hong Kong or Shanghai region. Only the American Boeing B-29, with its 3,250 miles range, nearly twice that of any British bomber, had the range and only from the Shanghai region, to complete such a mission. Note the first very costly B-29 missions were conducted from China, and once the Mariana Islands bases became available, all further raids against Japan were conducted from there. Unless the Americans decided to give the British B-29’s, unlikely, I for one seriously doubt that the British will until they are able to construct airfields in South Korea around Pusan, which itself is extremely unlikely, there will be no other than naval aviation British bombing missions against Japan. Side note one of my junior school teachers flew Sea Fires as escorts, over Japan when serving with the British Pacific Fleet.
RR.
RR.
True. However, it should be noted that the production capacity target for the US Synthetic Rubber program was raised to 400,000 tons immediately after Pearl Harbour, and before the fall of Singapore IOTL. Since Singapore seems pretty secure ITTL and rubber imports are likely proceeding it is possible that the increase to 600,000 tons in March and to 800,000 tons in April do not happen. For context the US imported over 800,000 tons from Southeast Asia in 1940 and over 1,000,000 in 1941. Though some of that was making up for a previous shortage.
Nonetheless some of the US’s expanded rubber consumption will likely be filled by synthetic rubber. Though this will only likely hit capacity in 1944 based on OTL numbers. Still, maintaining that over 1,000,000 tons of rubber imported from Southeast Asia, or even expanding it to 1.2-1.3 million tons, would help to alleviate the balance of payments issue somewhat. Based on the prices of the day that should account for approximately £112-146 million per year spread between the British Empire and DEI. Assuming this was a 60/40 split in favour of the British (I can’t find exact numbers but it is generally acknowledged that Malaya was the worlds largest producer and the British also had Ceylon) that would amount to around £250-350 million across the rest of the war, at a stretch as high as £500 million.
It’s certainly helpful. But it should be remembered the scale of Britains balance of payments disparity. It averaged £719 million per year from 1939-1945 and totalled over £4,000 million.
Those with more knowledge of the Dutch situation can comment on the scale of effect this would have.
We should also consider that the war probably wont last as long and that Britain has had to replace less loses which will (hopefully!) cut back the amount of money being spent each year - or at least have the money better spent to further shorten the war
True, but at the same time how much hard cash has been saved by not needing to import so many tanks.
(I was going to write M3s & M4s, but that would hardly remove the possibility of misunderstanding…)
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
Just a few things to consider, America will still expand its synthetic rubber production, as the best tyres are made from a mix of synthetic and natural rubber. In addition you have missed another region that was a major rubber producer, the Belgium Congo, which along with its minerals, and palm oil, was also a significant producer of rubber. It the Belgium Congo produced enough that the income was sufficient to cover the costs of the Free Belgian Government during the war, including its military imports from Britain and America.
RR.
Dear Sir,
My initial idea was that a “Tiger Force” would be a primarily propaganda tool for morale purposes by mining the East China Sea, rather than Japan itself. It may not be possible to hit Yokohama-Shanghai Japanese convoys in Yokohama, but Shanghai would likely be in range.
There are also butterflies to affect this too. For a start, Coastal Command’s Liberator fleet will likely be less stretched, so a wing could be based in China. Certainly Catalina’s would have the range for mining ops.
I understand the invasion scare of ‘40 delayed airplane development by a year. I think that had the RAF needed IFR, they could have managed it. And while I don’t expect Lancasters to be “Black-Bucking” their way to Tokyo, I can definitely see HMG wanting to put more pressure and stretch the weak Japanese air defences fine all over the Far East.
Like so many, your teacher was a a brave man; I’ve lived around spitfires for 10 years and I can’t imagine trying to land one on a carrier.
I wasn’t trying to show an exhaustive accounting of rubber producing regions. However, at least as far as the US is concerned (which is the largest determinant in the effect of continued Rubber export on the post war economy) the Congo was a relatively minor source, and unlikely to be massively developed if supply from Southeast Asia is available:
The Control of Rubber in World War II on JSTOR
Paul Wendt, The Control of Rubber in World War II, Southern Economic Journal, Vol. 13, No. 3 (Jan., 1947), pp. 203-227
www.jstor.org
More focused development on a few key types, so some development was seriously accelerated while other areas were paused, some never to restart. But that is probably beyond the scope of this tank focused story.
Imperial Airways were doing IFR for trans-Atlantic trips pre-war - HP Harrows refuelling Shorts Empire flying boats. The tech and knowledge is there if the RAF want/need it.
They got a Lancaster up to a 3,000 mile range by putting a fuel tank in the back, though it cut the bomb load to only 4,000lb. Between that and the IFR the RAF probably can put bombers over wherever they want in Japan, not a large force to start but growing.
You have another target that will take some heat off other areas. Start bombing Taiwan, it was Japanese prewar territory and considered part of Japan itself. You also have a number of industries there and major army and fleet installations that they will need to protect from the bomber and stretch the aircraft of both the IJA and the IJN because they won't work together to protect each others places.
Hello El Pip, I don’t think I’ve seen you since “Reap The Whirlwind” (which is probably where this post belongs.)
I wonder what range could be added to a Halifax if you put fuel tanks in all the wing cells. Might be easier to squeeze out of the Metropolitan Bomber Command.
More on topic; if there are any extra Churchills being made, I can see them being an excellent fit for China.
Given wikipedia quotes the cost of an M3 Lee as $55,250, the fact that Britain has only ordered 300 instead of 3,000 means they've saved near on $150M right there, or ~3.73% of their OTL bill.