Answering the Call of Lafayette: America Intervenes in the Franco-Prussian War

67th Tigers

Banned
The United States government, in response to French appeals, begins shipping surplus military equipment and other supplies to France almost immediately upon the declaration of war. Newspaper editors throughout the United States are meanwhile whipping up public opinion in favor of France, “our friend during the Great Rebellion, the land of Lafayette, now under the boot of the Teutonic bully.“ In response, the Prussians send out several commerce raiders which begin preying on U.S. shipping in the Atlantic and elsewhere. Public outrage over these depredations leads President Grant, on October 10, 1870, to ask Congress for a declaration of war on Prussia. Congress almost unanimously approves this declaration the next day.

The United States is able to mobilize more quickly than would otherwise be the case by calling upon it’s Civil War veterans…both Union and Confederate…who provide a large reserve of men with military experience and training who will form the core of the expanded army. Thus, within six months, the United States is able to form, equip, and transport to France, an American Expeditionary Force of 250,000 men (commanded by General William T. Sherman), with as many more in the process of training and equipage. The eventual structure of the A.E.F. (from July 1871 to the end of the war) will be as follows…

THE AMERICAN EXPEDITIONARY FORCE

General William T. Sherman, Army Group Commander

FIRST ARMY--General William Rosecrans
--1st Corps...Lt. General James Longstreet
--2nd Corps...Lt. General John Schofield
--3rd Corps...Lt. General George Meade
--4th Corps...Lt. General Winfield S. Hancock
Approximately 125,000 men, mostly Northern regiments. Later expanded to 275,000 men.

Second Army--General Thomas Jonathan Jackson
--1st Corps...Lt. General Philip Kearny
--2nd Corps...Lt. General Ambrose Powell Hill
--3rd Corps...Lt. General John Cabell Breckinridge
Approximately 100,000 men, mostly Southern regiments. Later expanded to 200,000 men.

Cavalry Corps--Lt. General James Ewell Brown Stuart
--1st Division...Major General Joseph Wheeler
--2nd Division...Major General Judson Kilpatrick
Approximately 25,000 men (later expanded to 50,000 men)

The U.S. forces are armed initially with various versions of the trapdoor Springfield Rifle (primarily Allin conversions of existing Civil War surplus muskets, which can be produced quickly and cheaply), but President Grant soon contacts Oliver Winchester, who has acquired rights to the Spencer Repeating Rifle after purchasing the Spencer company in 1869, to have the Spencer mass-produced (Grant favors the Spencer design over Winchester’s own product, the Henry Rifle, because it fires a much more hard-hitting and longer-ranged cartridge). In cooperation with government arsenals, Winchester’s New Haven Arms Company, in cooperation with various government arsenals and other private contractors, begins churning out Spencer Rifles by the hundreds of thousands by the end of 1871. By the end of 1872, the American Expeditionary Force in France will be equipped almost entirely with the new Spencers.

I still maintain this is a much larger force than the US has a capability to produce, even for home defence. Indeed, a US of more than twice the population struggled to raise this number in 1898 for home defence, and could spare more than a few tens of thousands for overseas adventures.

The Spencer really isn't going to equip such a large force. Less than 13,000 Spencer Rifles were ever built (as opposed to about 45,000 Carbines and about 30,000 Burnside-Spencers built after the war). The Company went under in 1869 and ended up owned by Winchester (who were producing Henry's instead). You need to alter your TL again to keep the company in buisness.
 
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Nice update Robert! I particularly like the addition of Maximilian in Brazil. One can only hope that his presence will allow for a continued imperial monarchy, though his politics might well prevent it (liberal intervention by Isabella in emancipating slaves triggered part of the backlash of OTL which led to the Republic).

Also, there's a typo in the text: in 1862 you refer to Brigadier Gen. Custer raiding in Richmond and in the 1870s during Sherman's Indian Campaign, to a Lt. Col. Custer.
 
good, to see this old timeline back up again...I am wondering what If any does the US get out of The German War?

I meant to change the Treaty of Brussels entry to say that the U.S. shares in the indemnity paid by Prussia, as compensation for U.S. shipping losses to Prussian commerce raiders.

EDIT: I have changed the TL to reflect the above.

Also will Grant run and win a third term(Let's hope the scandals of OTL don't emerge in TTL) and as always keep it comming

You'll see in the next segment. ;)
 
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I still maintain this is a much larger force than the US has a capability to produce, even for home defence. Indeed, a US of more than twice the population struggled to raise this number in 1898 for home defence, and could spare more than a few tens of thousands for overseas adventures.

The Spencer really isn't going to equip such a large force. Less than 13,000 Spencer Rifles were ever built (as opposed to about 45,000 Carbines and about 30,000 Burnside-Spencers built after the war). The Company went under in 1869 and ended up owned by Winchester (who were producing Henry's instead). You need to alter your TL again to keep the company in buisness.

We already had this discussion.
 

67th Tigers

Banned
We already had this discussion.

Yes, we did, and I don't remember my questions being answered.

Essentially, how the hell is the US going to a. raise, b. equip, c. transport and d. supply such a force.

Lets not get into the question of how and why unreconstructed Confederates would agree to serve as officers in the occupying power.
 
Nice update Robert! I particularly like the addition of Maximilian in Brazil. One can only hope that his presence will allow for a continued imperial monarchy, though his politics might well prevent it (liberal intervention by Isabella in emancipating slaves triggered part of the backlash of OTL which led to the Republic).

Actually, it was a combination of things that brought the monarchy down. The emancipation of the slaves was a factor, but not the deciding factor. The deciding factor seems to have been the changes in the Brazilian army which took place as a result of the War of the Triple Alliance. The war politicized the army, a trend which gained momentum over time. The shorter war will likely reduce that trend. And Max's boy, Pedro Maximilian, may have a role to play too. We shall see. ;)

As for the emancipation issue, it was emancipating the slaves WITHOUT COMPENSATION, rather than the emancipation itself, which pissed off the conservative slaveowners and turned them against the monarchy. Max may be able to help there.

So there is a possibility the monarchy may survive. To be honest, I am still puzzling that one out.

Also, there's a typo in the text: in 1862 you refer to Brigadier Gen. Custer raiding in Richmond and in the 1870s during Sherman's Indian Campaign, to a Lt. Col. Custer.

As in OTL, the Civil War rank was a brevet rank, and did not carry over into the postwar army. That's why in OTL, Custer was a Colonel at the time of his death in 1876. Same thing applies here with regard to the ranks.
 
Yes, we did, and I don't remember my questions being answered.

Essentially, how the hell is the US going to a. raise, b. equip, c. transport and d. supply such a force.

If you are too lazy to look back at the previous discussion, that's not my problem.

Lets not get into the question of how and why unreconstructed Confederates would agree to serve as officers in the occupying power.

Um, because the occupation was very short-lived and the Lincoln Administration pursued a very lenient Reconstruction policy? Because, by 1870, the South is again a full, working partner in the Union, and white Confederates have all had their citizenship rights restored? Honestly, did you actually bother to read the timeline at all?
 
July 1870-May 1873--The Franco-Prussian War (or, as it will be known in the United States, “The German War”). As in OTL, Prussia manages to persuade the south German states to join the war against France, and quickly mobilizes an army of over 1 million men for the invasion of France. The various reforms instituted in the French army since 1862 prove to be of great value, and France manages to mobilize nearly 800,000 well-trained men within a month after the declaration of war, with the goal of an ultimate mobilization of over one million men proceeding and well along toward completion. And, unlike in OTL, the mobilization is much better organized, thanks to the plan devised with the input of Herman Haupt. The French infantry is much better armed than the Prussians, although their artillery is, as in OTL, outclassed by the Prussian Krupp guns. However, the French are able to do much better in the early battles of the war, and although they do not win any outright victories, manage to avoid any major defeats in the early months of the war, which bogs down into a bloody stalemate.

So is the POD more like Napoleon III is somewhat better at running a country (although, given the similar to OTL lead-up to the war still a bonehead in diplomacy most of the time) because I don't see any other particular reason the French should be handling the war effort better than OTL.

Actually, I suppose stronger support for the Union could mean the French send a whole bunch of observers over and listen to them but that's about all I can come up with.

Anyway, I'm enjoying the timeline and am quite interested to see where it goes.
 
Here is the next installment. More to come soon...

PART TWO...1873-1880

June 1873--President Grant, flush with victory in the recent war, is more popular than ever. Taking advantage of this, and the fact that his arch-enemy in the Senate, Charles Sumner, is no longer there to contest it, on June 5, 1873, Grant dispatches an American naval force to the Dominican Republic. On the same day, he reintroduces the Dominican Annexation Treaty. This time the treaty is narrowly approved by the Senate on June 29.

July 1873--President Baez of the Dominican Republic signs off on the Dominican Annexation Treaty on July 5, 1873. American Marines land in the Republic and establish control over it the next day. In a formal ceremony on June 6, the flag of the Dominican Republic is lowered for the last time in front of government buildings across the former republic. The Stars and Stripes goes up in its place, beginning a new era for the people of the tropical Caribbean island. The former Dominican Republic is organized by Congress as the Territory of Dominica. The President of Haiti, Nissage Saget, formally protests to President Grant, but his words fall on deaf ears. European nations, as well as the governments of most of Latin America, also protest the action. Relations with Spain, especially, chill considerably.

August 1873 onward--Prussia, having been defeated in its efforts to unite Germany, is temporarily in eclipse. However, King Wilhelm I has not abandoned the dream of a united Germany under Prussian leadership, and during this period Prussia works to rebuild it’s military strength. Prussia’s General Staff studies the lessons learned in the recent conflict with France, in particular the trench warfare which dominated the latter half of the war. Various new tactics and new military equipment will be studied and discretely introduced into the Prussian armed forces over the next couple of decades. By 1890, Prussia will have the most tactically and technologically advanced army on the European continent.

During the years immediately following the end of the Franco-Prussian War, Prussia will also isolate itself diplomatically, focusing on it’s military rebuilding efforts and not involving itself in European affairs at large. This will have important impacts as well.

December 1873--Maryland abolishes slavery.

1873 onward--Following the creation of the U.S. Territory of Dominica, the Federal Government encourages the migration of free blacks from the mainland United States to the new Territory, with the promise that the Territory will eventually be admitted as a State…the first nearly all-black State in the Union. Many thousands of them will take up the offer, including such men as Frederick Douglass, who will go on to be the first Governor of the State of Hispaniola, when it is admitted to the Union in 1882.

March 1874--President Nissage Saget of Haiti is overthrown by a military coup, and civil war breaks out in Haiti (later historians will discover that the Grant Administration played a part in this by secretly providing funds to the coup organizers). President Grant, declaring the disorder in Haiti a threat to the citizens of the new U.S. Territory of Dominica, orders U.S. troops to occupy Haiti. This is accomplished, with some difficulty, by the end of the year. Once again, the United States is condemned internationally for it’s aggression against the weaker nations of the Western Hemisphere.

January 1875--At President Grant’s urging, Congress passes a bill for the formal annexation of Haiti. It’s territory is merged with that of the Territory of Dominica and a new Territory, the Territory of Hispaniola, is created.

June 1875--In a lavish wedding ceremony in London, Princess Beatrice, youngest daughter of Queen Victoria of Great Britain, is married to the dashing Prince Imperial of France, Napoleon Eugene, son of Emperor Napoleon III. The marriage further seals what has grown to be an ever-closer relationship between Britain and France which has been cultivated by Napoleon III since his accession to the French throne in the early 1850s. Napoleon Eugene himself is a confirmed Anglophile, and his worldview will play a major role in his foreign policy when he becomes Emperor at the death of his father.

November 1876--Presidential Elections in the United States. President Grant, his popularity buoyed by victory in the recent war and the successful annexation of the Dominican Republic, decides to run for an unprecedented third term. The Democrats nominate William Rosecrans of Ohio, Grant’s long-time enemy and a hero of both the Civil War and the German War, with Samuel Jones Tilden of New York as his Vice-Presidential running mate.

President Grant’s second term had been scandal-ridden, with his Secretary of War and Secretary of the Navy, among others, both impeached for war profiteering during the German War (both resigned rather than face trial before the Senate, and neither served a day in jail). Other scandals involving lesser officials of Grant’s Administration also occurred, with Grant issuing pardons to any unlucky enough to be convicted for their roles in these sordid affairs.

And so, in an extremely close election, a surprise upset occurs when Rosecrans defeats Grant in the general election in November 1876.

January 1877--Death of Emperor Napoleon III of France (in OTL Napoleon III died in 1873, but this was largely a result to a decline in his health which took place as a result of his exile after the lost Franco-Prussian War. In the ATL, the war wasn‘t lost, so his health stays good for a few more years). He is succeeded by his son, who reigns as Emperor Napoleon IV. The 21-year-old Emperor grew to manhood during the "Liberal Empire" of Napoleon III’s reign, and he is firmly committed to the continuing liberalization of the government of France. Under his guidance, France will transition to a very stable, prosperous, and very democratic for the time, constitutional monarchy by the end of the century.

March 1877-March 1885--The Presidency of William Starke Rosecrans. President Rosecrans, a forthright and completely honest man who actively campaigned against the "corruption and fraud" of the Grant Administration, will shepherd several reform laws through Congress which will put an end to the "spoils system" which had formed the basis of Federal Government hiring since the time of Andrew Jackson. He also will battle against corruption within the Bureau of Indian Affairs and other agencies of the Federal government which had gained notorious reputations for graft during the Grant Administration. Last but not least, he will take on the power of the big "Trusts," powerful monopolistic companies which have gained a stranglehold various sectors of the economy. With the able assistance of his friend and ally from Ohio, Senator John Sherman, a major Anti-Trust law will be passed during his administration. Rosecrans’ Administration will be remembered as the one shining moment of honesty and integrity amidst the cesspool of fraud and corruption which was the politics of the "Gilded Age."

One major issue which President Rosecrans confronts, less successfully, during his term of office is the status of black Americans. The abolitionist movement in the North has found that it’s power and influence has been significantly reduced by passage of the Corwin/Lincoln Amendment. Abolitionists never formed more than a small minority in the North, but in the 1840s and 1850s they had found a valuable ally in the Free Soil movement, which aimed at the exclusion of slavery from the Territories. It was this alliance which propelled the Republican Party to power in 1860. The Corwin/Lincoln Amendment represents a complete victory from the point of view of the Free Soilers, but a devastating defeat from the point of view of the Abolitionists. The two groups are thereby severed, and the Abolitionists find themselves in the political wilderness, unheard and unheeded.

Many Abolitionists, discouraged, have decided to devote themselves to a new cause…civil rights for free black Americans. The resistance of most Northerners…not to mention that of the South…to this idea is tremendous, and the agitators have made little headway. But enough people have been swayed by their arguments that a new political party, the Liberty Party, has been formed in the North, and has even managed to elect a few Congressmen and Senators in the most recent election. Political rallies held by the party have sometimes resulted in riots between their supporters and those opposed to them in various cities of the North.

President Rosecrans himself holds no strong views on the issue, but is concerned that the issue is threatening the peace of the country. He sees the Territory of Hispaniola as a potential pressure valve for the racial issues which he sees looming over the peace and tranquility of the United States, and he will encourage migration of free blacks from the mainland U.S. to Hispaniola, working with Congress to get funding passed to facilitate this process.

As for foreign affairs, President Rosecrans will find his time in office consumed by an unexpected conflict with Spain, and the aftermath of that conflict. Thus, the United States will not get directly involved in doings outside the Western Hemisphere during his administration, except in a very minor way.

April 1877-March 1878--The Russo-Turkish War. Russia defeats the Ottoman Empire, forcing the Porte to agree to the harsh Treaty of San Stefano in March 1878. The Ottomans are forced to recognize the independence of Serbia, Montenegro, Romania, and Bulgaria, as well as yielding territory to Russia on the western coast of the Black Sea and in eastern Anatolia. Finally, the Straits of the Bosphorus and the Dardanelles are declared open to all neutral shipping in war and peacetime.

July 1878--The announcement of the Treaty of San Stefano, in March 1878, sends shock waves through Europe. Great Britain, which sees the establishment of what are, effectively, a chain of satellite states giving the Russian Black Sea Fleet free access to the Mediterranean…in a position to threaten the Suez Canal, the lifeline between Britain and the vital colony of India…demands that the treaty be submitted to a conference of the European Powers for revision. In this she is supported by the Anglophilic Emperor of France, Napoleon IV, and by Emperor Franz Josef of Austria, who sees Austrian interests in the Balkans being harmed by the Treaty of San Stefano. One nation which is conspicuously silent is Prussia, which is still enmeshed in it’s self-imposed isolation.

Russia agrees to a conference, and the Congress of Vienna is convened beginning in July 1878. The Congress nearly breaks down as Russia digs in it’s heels and initially refuses to make any but the most minor concessions (unlike in OTL, the statesmanship of Otto von Bismarck is not there to help guide the conference and break deadlocks). Finally, staring at the threat of a declaration of war by Britain, France, and Austria, the Russians back down, and an agreement much like that signed at the OTL Congress of Berlin is signed. Bulgaria is divided up, with part remaining independent and part given back to the Ottomans; part of the territory Russia had claimed for itself on the western shores of the Black Sea is given to Romania instead, and other minor adjustments are made.

One major difference between the ATL agreement and the OTL one does occur. As in OTL, Austria makes a claim on Bosnia and Herzogovina, but it is denied in the ATL. It seems that, just prior to the outbreak of the Russo-Turkish war in early 1877, Austria had signed a secret treaty with Russia in which it basically promised to support the division of the Ottoman lands in the Balkans as was done in the subsequent Treaty of San Stefano, in exchange for which Russia would support Austria’s claim on Bosnia and Herzogovina. Now, enraged that Austria has failed to keep it’s part of the bargain, Russia balks at Austria gaining it’s own ill-gotten spoils. Bismarck is not there to help ease frayed tempers, and Russian diplomats leak a copy of the secret treaty to the other nations represented at the conference, exposing Austrian duplicity for everyone to see. Furthermore, they threaten war if Austria is allowed to occupy Bosnia and Herzogovina. Britain and France, disgusted by Austria’s role in the affair, refuse to back the Austrian claim. Bosnia and Herzogovina are granted the status of an autonomous territory within the Ottoman Empire, under the protection of Russia and Serbia.

June 1877-May 1880--The Cuban War. Since 1868, a long and bloody war has been going on in Cuba, as revolutionaries seeking Cuban independence battle Spanish troops for control of the island. The Spanish have been taking harsher and harsher measures against the rebels, and newspapers in the U.S. have been full of lurid stories about Spanish atrocities. The Spanish denunciation of the annexation of the Dominican Republic has contributed to anti-Spanish feeling in the U.S. as well. Although the U.S. government has officially maintained a policy of neutrality in the Cuban struggle, and has enforced it’s neutrality laws, nevertheless, private citizen groups have formed which have successfully funneled arms and volunteers to the Cuban rebels.

In May 1877, the S.S. MIAMI, a U.S. merchant steamer, is stopped on the high seas by a Spanish warship off the coast of Cuba. It is found that the ship is carrying arms for the Cuban rebels, as well as a company of 50 volunteers, all American citizens. The ship is seized, and both the crew and the passengers are arrested and imprisoned at Havana. Despite protests by the U.S. government, the prisoners are found guilty of piracy by a Spanish military tribunal, and executed, by beheading, on May 15.

When news of this reaches the United States, the result is an immediate public clamor for war. President Rosecrans, who desires peace and who had wanted to begin repairing the damage to the international reputation of the U.S. caused by the U.S. annexations of Haiti and the Dominican Republic, tries to resist the tide, but in the end, is unsuccessful. Congress declares war on Spain on June 3, 1877.

The outbreak of war finds the U.S. in a somewhat precarious position, due to the fact that the U.S. has basically allowed its navy to wither since the end of the Civil War. The ironclads built during the Civil War have long since been retired, and no new ones built. Since the Prussian navy presented no significant challenge during the German War, there was no impetus to ramp up spending on the U.S. Navy as a result of that conflict, either. Indeed, the new warships currently under construction in various naval yards in the U.S. are all wooden screw steamers, no different from those used before the Civil War.

Spain, on the other hand, has a modern, ironclad navy, and the few U.S. warships unlucky enough to clash with Spanish vessels in the early part of the war are quickly captured or sent to the bottom of the sea. Spain also has over 200,000 battle-hardened troops in Cuba, which have to be engaged and defeated if the U.S. is to claim victory in the conflict. And so, the U.S. has a problem. How to get an army to Cuba, in the face of superior naval opposition?

In the interim, the U.S. focuses on smuggling arms into Cuba for the revolutionaries, using fast, purpose-built blockade runners. This, plus the promise of direct U.S. intervention, provides a much needed shot in the arm for the rebels, who had been near the point of exhaustion. Small numbers of U.S. troops also run the blockade and begin serving alongside the rebels before the end of 1877.

Ultimately, U.S. industrial power is brought to bear, and a modern fleet of powerful ironclad warships is built, the first of them commissioned only six months following the declaration of war. By the end of 1878, the U.S. Navy is strong enough to challenge the Spanish, and in a series of engagements, it gains control of the seas around Cuba. An American army of 300,000 is landed near Santiago in February 1879, and in a series of battles which will consume the next year, the Spanish Army in Cuba is defeated. Fighting ends in May 1880, with American forces…and their Cuban allies…in control of the island.

December 1878--King Wilhelm I recalls Otto von Bismarck from retirement and reinstates him as Chancellor of Prussia. This signals a more aggressive Prussian policy in Europe and a return to the Prussian effort to unite Germany under it’s rule. Bismarck knows that he needs allies, and he begins bringing Prussia out of it’s self-imposed isolation.

April 1879--Chancellor Otto von Bismarck, seeking allies for Prussia, see what he feels is a golden opportunity. Prussian diplomats are soon making contact with those of Tsar Alexander III of Russia, who, like Prussia, is diplomatically isolated at the moment. And, Bismarck knows, the two nations have a common enemy in Austria, which, in addition to it’s interference with what Russia considers to be its sphere of influence in the Balkans, has, since the end of the Franco-Prussian War, resumed it’s meddling in German affairs as well, taking advantage of Prussia’s momentary weakness. Negotiations will drag on for several months.

November 1879--Prussia and Russia sign a treaty of alliance. The two powers become known as the Dual Alliance.

July 1880--Although an armistice had existed between the U.S. and Spain since May 1880, it is not until July 17, 1880 that the Treaty of Geneva formally ends the Cuban War. Spain cedes Cuba and Puerto Rico (which was also occupied by the U.S. during the war) to the United States. For the first time in almost 400 years, Spain holds no territory in the Americas.

June 1880 onward--The status of Cuba, newly ceded to the United States, is the cause of much controversy in the U.S. A large segment of popular opinion wants to grant independence to Cuba, but there are many more who clamor for annexation. Although he opposed the war, now that it is won, President Rosecrans is firmly in the annexationist camp, seeing Cuba as another place where black Americans can make their own destinies, separate from that of white America. Finally, in early 1881...shortly after Rosecrans is inaugurated for his second term…Congress will pass legislation formally annexing Cuba. The Cuban revolutionaries see this as a betrayal, and armed resistance soon breaks out against U.S. rule in Cuba.

September 1880--Italy, which, like Prussia and Russia, is unfriendly to Austria, joins the Dual Alliance, which becomes the Triple Alliance.

November 1880--Presidential Elections in the United States. President Rosecrans, his popularity buoyed by the successful conclusion of the Cuban War, is reelected, defeating Republican candidate George Armstrong Custer.
 
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1873 onward--Following the creation of the U.S. Territory of Dominica, the Federal Government encourages the migration of free blacks from the mainland United States to the new Territory, with the promise that the Territory will eventually be admitted as a State…the first nearly all-black State in the Union. Many thousands of them will take up the offer, including such men as Frederick Douglass, who will go on to be the first Governor of the State of Hispaniola, when it is admitted to the Union in 1882.

March 1874--President Nissage Saget of Haiti is overthrown by a military coup, and civil war breaks out in Haiti (later historians will discover that the Grant Administration played a part in this by secretly providing funds to the coup organizers). President Grant, declaring the disorder in Haiti a threat to the citizens of the new U.S. Territory of Dominica, orders U.S. troops to occupy Haiti. This is accomplished, with some difficulty, by the end of the year. Once again, the United States is condemned internationally for it’s aggression against the weaker nations of the Western Hemisphere.

January 1875--At President Grant’s urging, Congress passes a bill for the formal annexation of Haiti. It’s territory is merged with that of the Territory of Dominica and a new Territory, the Territory of Hispaniola, is created.

1) Umm... Promising Statehood to Dominica?! A black-run state?! In 1873!? This SOUNDS ASB to me. Considering, e.g., Lincoln's (obviously a progressive for the time) views on blacks, I really can't imagine that only 10 years later, they're promising a black, black-run state.

2) While I can see Congress in its 'wisdom' merging Haiti and the Dominican Republic, AFAIK it would be a total disaster. They spoke two different languages, they had distinct identities, and AFAIK, they hated each other.

Annexing Haiti against its will will create a bloody running sore. Merging it with Dominica, ... well, that squared.
 
1) Umm... Promising Statehood to Dominica?! A black-run state?! In 1873!? This SOUNDS ASB to me. Considering, e.g., Lincoln's (obviously a progressive for the time) views on blacks, I really can't imagine that only 10 years later, they're promising a black, black-run state.

They're not promising Statehood to Dominica, per se. They are promising it to the black opinion leaders in the United States who are going to try to persuade the free black population to go there. And it is a fact that creating a black State there was pretty much why Grant wanted to annex the place in OTL. He wanted to admit it as a black state, where blacks in the U.S. could go to escape oppression, and also as a political bludgeon to use on the South.

2) While I can see Congress in its 'wisdom' merging Haiti and the Dominican Republic, AFAIK it would be a total disaster. They spoke two different languages, they had distinct identities, and AFAIK, they hated each other.

Annexing Haiti against its will will create a bloody running sore. Merging it with Dominica, ... well, that squared.

The President of Haiti actually was overthrown in a coup at this time in OTL. If the U.S. had held the Dominican Republic at the time, it is likely (IMHO) that they would intervened to protect their new acquisition from spillover violence. As for combining the too...well, it wouldn't be the first time white people went into a place they really didn't understand and arbitrarily drew...or in this case, erased...lines on a map. Look at a map of Africa sometime. :eek: I didn't say this was going to work out all rosy. The hope is that American blacks will be able to make this work.
 
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:DAwesome Installment Robert, I love the alternate path for Rosecrans with a shorter end to the Civil War(I assume that he was still the Governor of Ohio when he got the DEM nod in 1876, as he was offered it in OTL 1869 but he refused it). And I like that President Rosy and the Democrats after being out of power for 16 years, embracing Imperalism...But It does spark up a few questions however...

1. So with a quicker end to the Civil War and no emancipation, Do we still see the rise of the Redeemers in the South, A continuation of the Antebellum Planter Aristocracy, or have all the Democrats under Rosecrans shifted to a coalition of Imperalists and Bourbon Democrats?

2. With a "more balanced" political scene in the United States during this ATL Gilded Age...Will we still see the rise of the Populist Movement/Party in the Southwest, The Great Plains and even in the Deep South?(Possibly as a way for poorer white's to gain power over the Planter aristocracy).

3. What is the exact status of Free blacks in TTL's America, I know you talked about Grant and Rosecrans pushing for Migration that will ultimatley lead to Hispanolia's admittance to statehood, but are those free black considered Citizens? And what are the status of those blacks who "originally" inhabited both Hati and the Domincan Republic? If so, which party will the blacks side with, as they will become quickly a sought after in the Presidential campaigns of the future electorally speaking.

4. About how many American lives were lost ITTL's Civil War, and German War? Does it equate roughly the same numbers that were lost in OTL Civil War? Also what role has Lincoln taking in this new America? Is he still seen as an influential leader and voice on American Policy or has he simply retired back to Springfield?

Other than that, Im really glad that you've come back to TTL, and look forward to seeing any future maps and installments you come up with. Who knows, you may even take this to the Present day...Keep it comming
 
:DAwesome Installment Robert, I love the alternate path for Rosecrans with a shorter end to the Civil War(I assume that he was still the Governor of Ohio when he got the DEM nod in 1876, as he was offered it in OTL 1869 but he refused it). And I like that President Rosy and the Democrats after being out of power for 16 years, embracing Imperalism...But It does spark up a few questions however...

1. So with a quicker end to the Civil War and no emancipation, Do we still see the rise of the Redeemers in the South, A continuation of the Antebellum Planter Aristocracy, or have all the Democrats under Rosecrans shifted to a coalition of Imperalists and Bourbon Democrats?

The Redeemers, as such, never arose, because white supremacy was never threatened in the South. Slavery is still there, and is protected in perpetuity (or as long as the South, itself, decides to keep it). Since the great majority of blacks in the South are still slaves, and the free black population there has no political power, there has been no need to enact severe restrictions on free blacks there, so there are no Jim Crow laws as of yet. That may change, of course.

2. With a "more balanced" political scene in the United States during this ATL Gilded Age...Will we still see the rise of the Populist Movement/Party in the Southwest, The Great Plains and even in the Deep South?(Possibly as a way for poorer white's to gain power over the Planter aristocracy).

That could be. I haven't puzzled that part of the political scene out yet.

3. What is the exact status of Free blacks in TTL's America, I know you talked about Grant and Rosecrans pushing for Migration that will ultimatley lead to Hispanolia's admittance to statehood, but are those free black considered Citizens? And what are the status of those blacks who "originally" inhabited both Hati and the Domincan Republic? If so, which party will the blacks side with, as they will become quickly a sought after in the Presidential campaigns of the future electorally speaking.

I probably need to do an additions and corrections segment about that.

4. About how many American lives were lost ITTL's Civil War, and German War? Does it equate roughly the same numbers that were lost in OTL Civil War?

I would say the losses in TTL's Civil War were a little less than half what they were in OTL. The Confederacy never was able to completely re-equip with Minie rifles, so large numbers of it's troops were still using old smoothbores right up to the end, and would have been somewhat less effective as a result. Plus the war ended a full two years earlier than in OTL. As for the German War, losses were most likely about half what the U.S. lost in World War I...the Germans never had machine guns during the war, and the artillery used in the war was not nearly as devastating as that used in World War I in OTL. So probably, about 425,000 for the two wars combined. Even throwing in the Cuban War, its still probably less than the Civil War was all by itself in OTL.

Also what role has Lincoln taking in this new America? Is he still seen as an influential leader and voice on American Policy or has he simply retired back to Springfield?

Probably retired to Springfield. His health was already in decline when he was elected to his second term. After completing it, he is probably a broken man, physically.

Other than that, Im really glad that you've come back to TTL, and look forward to seeing any future maps and installments you come up with. Who knows, you may even take this to the Present day...Keep it comming

Thank you, glad you're enjoying it.
 
They're not promising Statehood to Dominica, per se. They are promising it to the black opinion leaders in the United States who are going to try to persuade the free black population to go there. And it is a fact that creating a black State there was pretty much why Grant wanted to annex the place in OTL. He wanted to admit it as a black state, where blacks in the U.S. could go to escape oppression, and also as a political bludgeon to use on the South.
I Googled 'Grant Dominica statehood', and the first hit that was useful (a page or two in) was from
http://books.google.com/books?id=tm...=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2#PPA35,M1
The United States and imperialism

By Frank A. Ninkovich

and the quote was "The refusal of the Senate to agree to the annexation of the Dominican Republic during the Grant administration was the chief post-Civil War example. While its large negro population made statehood unthinkable, the alternative of annexing the Dominican Republic as a colonial dependency seemed too radical a departure"

So, while I might believe Grant, personally, was willing to consider a black run state, that quote suggests that it was "unthinkable" to the Senate. If that is the case, why would the black leadership (either in the US or Dominica) not see that? Some sort of 'self-governing territory' (basically like today's Puerto Rico), might be possible, might be enough for the blacks, and might be the compromise that allows the annexation to slip through the Senate?



The President of Haiti actually was overthrown in a coup at this time in OTL. If the U.S. had held the Dominican Republic at the time, it is likely (IMHO) that they would intervened to protect their new acquisition from spillover violence. As for combining the too...well, it wouldn't be the first time white people went into a place they really didn't understand and arbitrarily drew...or in this case, erased...lines on a map. Look at a map of Africa sometime. :eek: I didn't say this was going to work out all rosy. The hope is that American blacks will be able to make this work.


Ya, well I did allow as how the suits in FoggyBottom might make that mistake.:) OK.
 
I Googled 'Grant Dominica statehood', and the first hit that was useful (a page or two in) was from
http://books.google.com/books?id=tm...=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2#PPA35,M1
The United States and imperialism

By Frank A. Ninkovich

and the quote was "The refusal of the Senate to agree to the annexation of the Dominican Republic during the Grant administration was the chief post-Civil War example. While its large negro population made statehood unthinkable, the alternative of annexing the Dominican Republic as a colonial dependency seemed too radical a departure"

So, while I might believe Grant, personally, was willing to consider a black run state, that quote suggests that it was "unthinkable" to the Senate. If that is the case, why would the black leadership (either in the US or Dominica) not see that? Some sort of 'self-governing territory' (basically like today's Puerto Rico), might be possible, might be enough for the blacks, and might be the compromise that allows the annexation to slip through the Senate?

Interesting. The sources I consulted indicated that the failure to pass the annexation bill were more due to a personal split between Charles Sumner, who chaired the Foreign Relations Committee, and Grant. Also, the Congress of the ATL is not the same one which existed in OTL. So the fact that it was "unthinkable" in OTL might not be the case in the ATL.

However, you may be right that a self-governing commonwealth ala OTL Puerto Rico might be a more viable answer than Statehood, at least for the near term. I will have to think that one over and may do a revision.
 
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