An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania

[Byz]

Ironically, many ppl have said (myself included) that the Romans seem to suffer from hideously bad luck at several points in this TL.

They have bad luck in minor things, but awesome luck in major things.

It's a funny dynamic, because I agree that tactically, they've gotten a lot of bad luck for a long time. And yet they haven't suffered a serious strategic reversal since the time of troubles, a hundred years ago. And there, they got rescued from what should have been a much harsher beating, and transformed into a much stronger, pound for pound, state. So really, ITTL has just been success after success at a broad level since the pod, and recently they've had a string of bad luck on the smaller scale that muddies the waters on how lucky they actually are.

Luck doesn't bother me, one could make the case plenty of major empires OTL were incredibly lucky. Thats not a criticism in any way, just the TL as I've seen it. But I do think if you just look at the tactical mishaps you miss the incredible strategic strides Rome makes.

 

[Curtain Jerker]

I'm guessing at some point around TTL's Roman "Time of Troubles" era they would have been swallowed up by Lombardy. There's no way a prosperous Venice can avoid being looked at jealously by Milan and it seems about the right point in history where all the ships in the world aren't going to stop a strong, centralized land power from gobbling you up.

This sounds pretty accurate, especially with no decades-long Italian Wars to devastate Milan (and much of the rest of Italy) ITTL.

 

[Cryostorm]

They have bad luck in minor things, but awesome luck in major things.

It's a funny dynamic, because I agree that tactically, they've gotten a lot of bad luck for a long time. And yet they haven't suffered a serious strategic reversal since the time of troubles, a hundred years ago. And there, they got rescued from what should have been a much harsher beating, and transformed into a much stronger, pound for pound, state. So really, ITTL has just been success after success at a broad level since the pod, and recently they've had a string of bad luck on the smaller scale that muddies the waters on how lucky they actually are.

Luck doesn't bother me, one could make the case plenty of major empires OTL were incredibly lucky. Thats not a criticism in any way, just the TL as I've seen it. But I do think if you just look at the tactical mishaps you miss the incredible strategic strides Rome makes.

To be fair, is there any major European country, aside from Poland-Lithuania, that didn't come out in stronger during this period in OTL? This is essentially the period in history where the small nations disappeared into the massive space filling empires. Hell, compared to the OTL Ottomans the Byzantines are lacking in Europe and Africa, though doing better in Asia.

 

[Byz]

To be fair, is there any major European country, aside from Poland-Lithuania, that didn't come out in stronger during this period in OTL? This is essentially the period in history where the small nations disappeared into the massive space filling empires. Hell, compared to the OTL Ottomans the Byzantines are lacking in Europe and Africa, though doing better in Asia.

Yep, totally reasonable. I think the heart of the complaints is that basically, Roman success is less "sexy" than it has been in the past. But I don't mind that. If anything the Romans ITTL have gone back to their ancient roots, grinding down their opponents with good organization and sheer tenacity, and that's kind of neat.

 

[emperor joe]

To be fair in otl at this time you had the 30 years war that basically destroyed Germany and the Germany would take 2 centuries to recover in demographic terms

 

[E_x_c_u_b_i_t_o_r_e]

To be fair in otl at this time you had the 30 years war that basically destroyed Germany and the Germany would take 2 centuries to recover in demographic terms

If they ever 'recover' and do not turn to the ttl balkans 2.0.

 

[Chernabog90]

Ironically, many ppl have said (myself included) that the Romans seem to suffer from hideously bad luck at several points in this TL.

Same thing could be said about OTL Byzantine empire

 

[Chernabog90]

If they ever 'recover' and do not turn to the ttl balkans 2.0.

Isn’t Russia already planning in playing in germany

 

[Curtain Jerker]

@Byz (and others)

I think a lot of the issues you raise about Rhomania and atrocities and people cheerleading said atrocities (and I've done it in the past, I'm not blameless here) are a case of protaganist centered morality. People will, by and large, cheer for the protaganist in a narrative. Look at the Sopranos. Tony Soprano is, by any stretch of the word, a reprehensible human being. He commits numerous crimes great and small. He's essentially unredeemable as a person - especially in later seasons. But during my last re-watch you find yourself cheering for the guy the entire time as he battles Junior/Richie/Ralph/Phil/whomever. A part of that is because those people are somehow even worse (especially Phil) but a part of that is because since Tony's the center of the narrative we're pulling for him because he's "our guy." Rhomania is "our guy" in this situation. I've thrown fits in this thread when "our guy" screws up battles or treaties or whatever. I've cheered when "our guy" beats back the hordes. That's how narratives go. If this were a Venice-based timeline with the exact same events that ended when Andreas Niketas killed tens of thousands and sent the rest to Anatolia we'd all be saying how Rhomania are monsters. But this is a Rhomania-based timeline so people in this thread (again, myself included) cheer. That's the nature of the beast.

 

[The Anglo-Dutch Union]

What is the dominant language in the Despotate of Sicily? Ofc there's Greek and latin dialects but which one dominates?

 

[Vince]

They have bad luck in minor things, but awesome luck in major things.

It's a funny dynamic, because I agree that tactically, they've gotten a lot of bad luck for a long time. And yet they haven't suffered a serious strategic reversal since the time of troubles, a hundred years ago. And there, they got rescued from what should have been a much harsher beating, and transformed into a much stronger, pound for pound, state. So really, ITTL has just been success after success at a broad level since the pod, and recently they've had a string of bad luck on the smaller scale that muddies the waters on how lucky they actually are.

Luck doesn't bother me, one could make the case plenty of major empires OTL were incredibly lucky. Thats not a criticism in any way, just the TL as I've seen it. But I do think if you just look at the tactical mishaps you miss the incredible strategic strides Rome makes.

@Basileus444 has pointed out before that even with the Romans doing very well in their little corner, they've reached the point where other powers are either at their level or eclipsing them. The Triunes, Russia and maybe Spain are the first that come to mind. So pretty much they can be at a Great Power level but never again the superpower under Andreas.

 

[Explicit]

@Basileus444 has pointed out before that even with the Romans doing very well in their little corner, they've reached the point where other powers are either at their level or eclipsing them. The Triunes, Russia and maybe Spain are the first that come to mind. So pretty much they can be at a Great Power level but never again the superpower under Andreas.

I'm pretty sure Rhomania is fine with that, so long as Latin Europe leaves them well enough alone. Right now they've secured their borders and after this whole economic depression thing passes they can focus on expanding their influence east. And Russia being strong benefits them, kinda, in a way that in any furure fight vs Latin Europe they will have their little(or not so little) brother on side

 

[Archereon]

We're still a ways before the era of standardized flags, but I got a bit inspired and did a thing...

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

Knowing the Rhomania can't really colonized the Americas thanks to their geographical position, will they start trying to focus on Indian Ocean colonization more intensively?

 

[Denliner]

Knowing the Rhomania can't really colonized the Americas thanks to their geographical position, will they start trying to focus on Indian Ocean colonization more intensively?

Not really. India is in a much stronger position thanks to Vijayanagar (especially after the War of Wrath) while there's not much worth in trying to take East Africa and the Swahili Coast compared to Southeast Asia, which has diminished its importance thanks to the decline of the spice trade.

I think further colonization will not bring long lasting prosperity and development to Rhomania. In fact it will probably drain them of much needed money and manpower that could've been focused on the homeland or existing colonies.

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

Not really. India is in a much stronger position thanks to Vijayanagar (especially after the War of Wrath) while there's not much worth in trying to take East Africa and the Swahili Coast compared to Southeast Asia, which has diminished its importance thanks to the decline of the spice trade.

I think further colonization will not bring long lasting prosperity and development to Rhomania. In fact it will probably drain them of much needed money and manpower that could've been focused on the homeland or existing colonies.

There’s South Africa. And if Western Europeans have success finding gold, silver, and diamonds would Rhomania take similar ventures to find so?

 

[Denliner]

There’s South Africa. And if Western Europeans have success finding gold, silver, and diamonds would Rhomania take similar ventures to find so?

The only colonial presence in South Africa (referencing Frame's map here) seems to be coming from the Triunes (the Cape), and they only treat it as a trading post like OTL. Diamonds were not found until much later and Gold is locked up within native African kingdoms that Rhomania or even the Triunes are unwilling to waste troops to conquer them, much less colonize and exploit, IMO.

There's not much of a point in colonial expansion when Rhomania is in political and economic turmoil, especially when they don't even have the means to compete with the Triunes in South Africa or Terranova. We'll see how they will act within a century or two, but it's unlikely they'll pursue these goals now.

 

[Chernabog90]

Southeast Asia, which has diminished its importance thanks to the decline of the spice trade

well southeast Asia, especially Indonesia has a massive amount of resources other than spice. hey isn't it would be hilarious if the white rajahs of the Sarawak region be rule by a byzantine instead of a triune

 

[Duke of Nova Scotia]

I think when it comes to Roman colonies, and Romania in the East, they are more an integrate-er than a colonizer. The Roman focus for any colonies has historically been trade first, and converting to Orthodoxy and speaking Greek second. Which in truth will have a much bigger knock on effect to their viability, as the need to import Romans is negated by "growing" their own from the indigenous populations. An Indonesia/Philippines (Heraklean), that sees itself as Roman raised has more lasting than if it was settled by outsiders.

 

[Cryostorm]

I think when it comes to Roman colonies, and Romania in the East, they are more an integrate-er than a colonizer. The Roman focus for any colonies has historically been trade first, and converting to Orthodoxy and speaking Greek second. Which in truth will have a much bigger knock on effect to their viability, as the need to import Romans is negated by "growing" their own from the indigenous populations. An Indonesia/Philippines (Heraklean), that sees itself as Roman raised has more lasting than if it was settled by outsiders.

Yep, essentially it is using the classical style of colonies and empire with the goal of making the new territories integral part of the empire rather than the 19th century style of a corporate aquisition.