An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania

[JSC]

Yeah, something along the lines of "Those Greeks used to be the heirs to the great and glorious Western traditions, a damn shame they fell somewhere along the way and now us True Roman Descendants are the real movers and shakers."

I'm sure somewhere in the archives is a Western ambassador or general or philospher expousing such rhetoric ITTL. Maybe later today I'll try and wade through the posts and see if I can find one.

As best I recall western (latin) historiography ITTL more or less states the “Roman” empire fell with the sack of Constantinople in 1204. The current “Roman” empire is simply the Greek Empire in Western Europe that grew from Nicea. It has barely more claim to be “Roman” than say Arles or Spain. It may occupy traditionally Roman areas but it isn’t Roman merely a very successful successor state.

To further the break with Rome western historiography emphasizes the large Turkish and Armenian components of the empire to make the claim that although Rhomania may occupy European lands it is fundamentally an Eastern power with European characteristics rather than a European power with Eastern characteristics.

The fact that the current dynasty is a mix of Greek, Turkish. Ethiopian, and Steppe Nomad with I am sure a very “dusky” appearance and that the only other state with a “Roman” emperor is Persia of all places would also be strongly used to imply that Rhomania isn’t Rome regardless of its name or the territory it occupies. Now for diplomatic purposes Rhomania is likely given the title de facto in terms of prestige but it is not at all emphasized outside of that. (By diplomatic I mean the Roman ambassador would be ushered into a meeting before the Triune, HRE, or Kalmar emperor as the title of Roman Emperor is older than all of them and thus gets preference)

Ironically it is likely the Muslim world rather than Europe that probably recognizes Rhomania as the Roman Empire in fact as well as diplomatic niceties. For the Muslim world this is fundamentally the same state that has been fought for a millennia now. The fact that it temporarily lost its capital is immaterial as even during that time Nicea reconquered Muslim lands in Anatolia.

Anyways that’s as best I can recall as I think a similar discussion was had about this 2 or 3 years ago.

 

[Explicit]

best I recall western (latin) historiography ITTL more or less states the “Roman” empire fell with the sack of Constantinople in 1204. The current “Roman” empire is simply the Greek Empire in Western Europe that grew from Nicea. It has barely more claim to be “Roman” than say Arles or Spain. It may occupy traditionally Roman areas but it isn’t Roman merely a very successful successor state.

I predict that ITTL modern era, any internet armchair historian that makes this claim will routinely be countered by the example of England being constantly conquered by foreigners and yet still considered "England"

 

[Blaze]

"Let the greeks have their empire. We'll have the true glorious Rome, the republican Rome of Camillus and Cincinnatus"

It may go more or less along these lines. Assuming of course that Western Europe in the future is republican and more liberal than Byzantium.

 

[HanEmpire]

From the snippets we've seen the West will generally turn into extremely racist democracies, a la the Confederate States of America. They'll probably differentiate between Ancient/Classical Era Greece and Rome from the modern Roman Empire due to the blood mixing that the Roman Empire have undergone since that time, primarily the Turks, Arabs, and Slavs that have integrated into the Empire. And that's for the imperial heartland only; the Eastern Territories with their Tamil Romans, Malay Romans, and Tagalog Romans and whatnot will cause conniptions at best.

 

[Evilprodigy]

Or alternatively, and hear me out, neither one will say 'the legacy of Rome' because they'll recognize there have been two Romes for over a thousand years. The West will fight over the legacy of Charlemagne, Julius Caesar, and the Western Roman Empire, the east will fight over the legacy of Alexander, Constantine, and the Eastern Roman Empire.

 

[HanEmpire]

Or alternatively, and hear me out, neither one will say 'the legacy of Rome' because they'll recognize there have been two Romes for over a thousand years. The West will fight over the legacy of Charlemagne, Julius Caesar, and the Western Roman Empire, the east will fight over the legacy of Alexander, Constantine, and the Eastern Roman Empire.

There can only be one.

 

[Evilprodigy]

There can only be one.

They aren't fighting over the legacy of Scotland.

 

[HanEmpire]

They aren't fighting over the legacy of Scotland.

Nationalists are not rational and will not give up any ground.
Rome anything belongs to the Empire and no one else, and anyone who claims otherwise are just jealous of the Empire.
The West are the true successors of the Romans, the Byzantines are insecure Greek losers aping another's legacy.

 

[Lascaris]

Nationalists are not rational and will not give up any ground. Rome anything belongs to the Empire and no one else, and anyone who claims otherwise are just jealous of the Empire.
The West are the true successors of the Romans, the Byzantines are insecure Greek losers aping another's legacy.

The losers part may be a bit problematic given history.

 

[Cryostorm]

Ironically it is likely the Muslim world rather than Europe that probably recognizes Rhomania as the Roman Empire in fact as well as diplomatic niceties. For the Muslim world this is fundamentally the same state that has been fought for a millennia now. The fact that it temporarily lost its capital is immaterial as even during that time Nicea reconquered Muslim lands in Anatolia.

Anyways that’s as best I can recall as I think a similar discussion was had about this 2 or 3 years ago.

Yep, I think it's been inferred that in many ways the Orthodox/Eastern Christians and Muslims, particularly Rhomania and Persia, will have a lot of, sometimes grudging, respect for each other and even view each other as favored rivals due to that shared history in both millennia long conflict, the Greeks and Persians have been going at it since Thermopylae and Marathon, as well as the occasional alliance, such as the anti Timurid wars and the recent Indian campaign. This is very different from the view they both share of Western Europe, and vice versa, that seems to be very distrustful and lacking of respect. It of course doesn't help that both worlds will have different definitions of what makes a people civilized, culture versus race/blood. Long term I can see those two competing theories, along with economic and government theories we already see diverging, resulting in some of the greatest wars this world will ever see.

 

[Blaze]

From the snippets we've seen the West will generally turn into extremely racist democracies, a la the Confederate States of America. They'll probably differentiate between Ancient/Classical Era Greece and Rome from the modern Roman Empire due to the blood mixing that the Roman Empire have undergone since that time, primarily the Turks, Arabs, and Slavs that have integrated into the Empire. And that's for the imperial heartland only; the Eastern Territories with their Tamil Romans, Malay Romans, and Tagalog Romans and whatnot will cause conniptions at best.

The only snipets i remember seeing is the one that showed that Byzantium is not as economically liberal as the western countries. And the one about the byzantines freaking out over the creation of a TTL European Union that Basileus then removed.

 

[HanEmpire]

The only snipets i remember seeing is the one that showed that Byzantium is not as economically liberal as the western countries. And the one about the byzantines freaking out over the creation of a TTL European Union that Basileus then removed.

Years ago there was a snippet from the perspective of a Triune nationalist scholar talking about the Roman Empire, and the Western historiography shown there basically called the Romans a mongrel race that sleeps with anyone and breeds with beastmen.

 

[Blaze]

Years ago there was a snippet from the perspective of a Triune nationalist scholar talking about the Roman Empire, and the Western historiography shown there basically called the Romans a mongrel race that sleeps with anyone and breeds with beastmen.

Ah, the good old treatment that was applied to portuguese and spanish because they accepted higher miscigenation and would certainly also be applied against spanish here because of the andalusians (i think, if Basileus is willing to do that in the future, we could have a snippet about inner workings of Spain. This TTL greater acceptance of muslims and presence of recent converts in higher places is worth such).

Coming from Triunes, the most obnoxious people in this entire timeline is not surprising. But appliying that to the rest of the western nations zeitgeist, most of which hate triunes is a stretch.

 

[Cryostorm]

Ah, the good old treatment that was applied to portuguese and spanish because they accepted higher miscigenation and would certainly also be applied against spanish here because of the andalusians (i think, if Basileus is willing to do that in the future, we could have a snippet about inner workings of Spain. This TTL greater acceptance of muslims and presence of recent converts in higher places is worth such).

Coming from Triunes, the most obnoxious people in this entire timeline is not surprising. But appliying that to the rest of the western nations zeitgeist, most of which hate triunes is a stretch.

To be fair that is largely OTL, just because most of mainland Europe thought the British, or French for that matter, were insufferable, or possibly even worse than that, didn't stop their cultural influences from permeating and becoming a base part of the Western outlook as a whole.

And considering the Triunes are set to be essentially both and even more dominant in the Atlantic one can safely say their outlook will have massive influence on the Latin west.

 

[Denliner]

"Let the greeks have their empire. We'll have the true glorious Rome, the republican Rome of Camillus and Cincinnatus"

It may go more or less along these lines. Assuming of course that Western Europe in the future is republican and more liberal than Byzantium.

It could also go in an Imperial direction with them claiming Augustus and Hadrian/Trajan as it seems the Greeks don't really claim them as opposed to their more recent Emperors like Andreas Niketas or Odysseus.

Either way it's really interesting to see a possible split between the West idolizing a more ancient Latin Rome while the East embraces its present Greek Roman Empire (there goes the concept of the East trying to reconnect with its Antiquity past lol, this is far more fascinating).

 

[Blaze]

To be fair that is largely OTL, just because most of mainland Europe thought the British, or French for that matter, were insufferable, or possibly even worse than that, didn't stop their cultural influences from permeating and becoming a base part of the Western outlook as a whole.

And considering the Triunes are set to be essentially both and even more dominant in the Atlantic one can safely say their outlook will have massive influence on the Latin west.

True, but assuming that by that the modern day western states will be CSA like countries when in OTL with the same attitudes they are not, is stretching the thing, assuming of course that they also do not adopt miscigenation which i can easilly see Spain and Arles to do.

 

[Chernabog90]

"Let the greeks have their empire. We'll have the true glorious Rome, the republican Rome of Camillus and Cincinnatus"

It may go more or less along these lines. Assuming of course that Western Europe in the future is republican and more liberal than Byzantium.

they have only the republic ideology but Rome is still in the hand of the byzantine

the east will fight over the legacy of Alexander, Constantine, and the Eastern Roman Empire.

who would in the east fight for the legacy of Alexander, Constantine and the eastern roman empire, after all beside byzantine there are no state in that area that is interested in claiming any of them

 

[HanEmpire]

Claiming the Legacy of Constantine means claiming the Legacy of the Classic Roman Empire too. The Eastern Romans were insistent that one of Constantine's great contributions was to take all the good bits of the City of Rome and the western half of the Empire and place it all in Constantinople. That'd be meaningless if the Romans didn't claim the legacy of the ancient Empire too.

 

[Explicit]

Rome is still in the hand of the byzantine

I doubt that will last for very long. Eventually the Despotate of Sicily will want to become the Kingdom of Italy and if Rhomania wants to keep a strong ally on side, it'll give up Rome without much fuss

 

[Chernabog90]

I doubt that will last for very long. Eventually the Despotate of Sicily will want to become the Kingdom of Italy and if Rhomania wants to keep a strong ally on side, it'll give up Rome without much fuss

i think as much autonomy that the byzantine give it's despotate, I don't think they would just allow it to become a kingdom, also I don't think Rhomania would give up Rome without a fight, after all that where their entire culture originated from and also the cultivation of their revenge against the west