The Castles of North America

Blue Moon

Banned
So under what circumstances, if any, could there exist in modern North America a fairly large number of European style castles ?
They are mostly in southeastern Canada and the east coast of the US with a scattering in the south and Midwest and just a handful in the mountain west and Pacific coast .
Was there something different in European history that brought castle building into the early modern period ? What different conditions allowed to them built ? Were they a reaction to the Native Americans or other Europeans coming to North America ?
 
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Avrorrange

Avrorrange

Blue Moon said:
So under what circumstances, if any, could there exist in modern North America a fairly large number of European style castles ?
They are mostly in southeastern Canada and the east coast of the US which a scattering in the south and Midwest and just a handful in the mountain west and Pacific coast .
Was there something different in European history that brought castle building into the early modern period ? What different conditions allowed to them built ? Were they a reaction to the Native Americans or other Europeans coming to North America ?
Click to expand...
Define what you mean by European castles?The term's quite loose and can mean different things depending on the period.During the early modern period,castles were basically palaces built in the countryside.

Besides that,what are the castles used for?
 

Paul Spring

If you're talking about classic medieval-style castles with high walls and crenellated towers, etc., you would have to either have Europeans discover and move into the Americas earlier, before cannon became really powerful in the late 15th-early 16th century, or delay the discovery of gunpowder (or its introduction into Europe) significantly. The European discovery of the Americas happened at just the time when there was a major change in the way Europeans built fortifications, based on the introduction of cannon that were effective in knocking down traditional castle walls. (Cannon had already been around for over 100 years, but for a while they had been less powerful and only marginally more effective than traditional siege engine designs). Basically, walls of fortifications became much thicker and lower, and tall towers were replaced by "bastions" with low, thick walls that extended from the main walls. The more expensive of these were made of stone, but simple thick earth walls could be almost as effective. These thick-walled gunpowder resistant fortifications indeed did become common throughout the Americas, from Canada to Chile, in any place where European colonizers felt that they would be threatened by other Europeans, either alone or in alliance with natives. In places where colonists were mainly worried about attacks of natives who didn't have any cannon, wooden palisades were generally considered sufficient defense.

Short version - Europeans started settling in the Americas at the exact historical moment when traditional castles were becoming obsolete in Europe itself, so they didn't bring them to the Americas. To change this, you would have to have them not have cannons, or have only very primitive cannon, when they started settling.
 

jahenders

Banned
A few things could drive that:

1) Early settlement/spread in North America such that more of the expansion and conflict would be in the technological period where castles made good sense. You'd also need to have enough population/resources to support the huge task of castle building.

2) Much more conflict with technologically advanced, near-peer adversaries. This could be Brits, Spanish, French, or British fighting each other more (earlier) or could be any of them having to contend with more military advanced natives.

3) The form of early Native American warfare could change such that building castles made sense in some key areas. This seems most likely in Central/South America, where you might have Aztec or Inca castles. However, you could theoretically have some more northerly tribal confederations involved in war of a type and scale that they made sense. So, instead of cliff dwellings, you might have cliff castles.

Blue Moon said:
So under what circumstances, if any, could there exist in modern North America a fairly large number of European style castles ?
They are mostly in southeastern Canada and the east coast of the US which a scattering in the south and Midwest and just a handful in the mountain west and Pacific coast .
Was there something different in European history that brought castle building into the early modern period ? What different conditions allowed to them built ? Were they a reaction to the Native Americans or other Europeans coming to North America ?
Click to expand...
 

tinfoil

darthfanta said:
Define what you mean by European castles?The term's quite loose and can mean different things depending on the period.During the early modern period,castles were basically palaces built in the countryside.

Besides that,what are the castles used for?
Click to expand...

These are in Canada:
Are they 'castles'?

Halifax
Hours%20and%20Accessibility_3.ashx


Quebec:
NHS-FortificationsOfQuebec_ParksCanada02.jpg


Louisbourg (Cape Breton):
SITE-AERIAL2.jpg
 

Blue Moon

Banned
Paul Spring said:
Short version - Europeans started settling in the Americas at the exact historical moment when traditional castles were becoming obsolete in Europe itself, so they didn't bring them to the Americas. To change this, you would have to have them not have cannons, or have only very primitive cannon, when they started settling.
Click to expand...
Very interesting. How would this affect things overall in Europe as well ?
 

Blue Moon

Banned
jahenders said:
A few things could drive that:

1) Early settlement/spread in North America such that more of the expansion and conflict would be in the technological period where castles made good sense. You'd also need to have enough population/resources to support the huge task of castle building.

2) Much more conflict with technologically advanced, near-peer adversaries. This could be Brits, Spanish, French, or British fighting each other more (earlier) or could be any of them having to contend with more military advanced natives.

3) The form of early Native American warfare could change such that building castles made sense in some key areas. This seems most likely in Central/South America, where you might have Aztec or Inca castles. However, you could theoretically have some more northerly tribal confederations involved in war of a type and scale that they made sense. So, instead of cliff dwellings, you might have cliff castles.
Click to expand...
Also very interesting ideas. Would make for an good AH :)
 

Blue Moon

Banned
Viriato said:
There is this in the Dominican Republic, it looks similar to a small castle one would find in Spain.

dominican_republic_santo_domingo_02.jpg
Click to expand...
Very nice.So some of the Castles of North America are like this, some are like what we see above in Canada and here and there are some really big ones a few of which are palaces -without all the fortifications.
 

Londinium

What about St. Augustine, Florida's Castillo de San Marco? It LOOKS like a castle ,is called that in Spanish- and was used as one in battle!

Then again, one could also argue that Ft. McHenry and Ft. Sumter are castles even if they weren't called that.
 

Blue Moon

Banned

TinyTartar

Banned
You have to have earlier settlement, as well as a more aristocratic and feudal period of settlement. With feudalism, castles were a form of social control as well as simply defensive bastions.
 

Blue Moon

Banned
TinyTartar said:
You have to have earlier settlement, as well as a more aristocratic and feudal period of settlement. With feudalism, castles were a form of social control as well as simply defensive bastions.
Click to expand...
Good point and on a related note I'm watching Outlander right now which partially inspired this thread :)
 

riggerrob

"Castles" is a vague term because their style and usage changed over the centuries.
Early European castle-keeps were only proof against arrows. Their primary function was to house the local lord, his family and servants and grain reserves. As siege engines improved, castle walls grew taller and thicker. Citadels in Halifax and Quebec City are Vauban-style with extra ramps of earth outside the moat. These ramps reduce the amount of citadel walls exposed to incoming artillery.Citadels in Halifax and Quebec City have little to do with housing royalty or food reserves. The Halifax Citadel guards an old navy shipyard and is just one part of a series of gun batteries controlling access tomHalifax harbour.

The Quebec Citadel guards the entrance to the Saint Lawrence River. Guns high on the cliffs can harass any ships foolish enough to try to sail up the St. Lawrence River.

Returning to the OP, if North American had been settled a century or two earlier (before gun powder dominated European battlefields) then NA lakes would have strings of castles guarding harbours and rivers and mountain passes and bridges and ferries.
IOW every transportation choke-point would have a fort so the local lord could tax travellers.
 

dissentcontinues

Banned
I wanted to do one where the Norse stay leading to more medieval contact with the New World, and the Norse become a Varangian Guard style mercenary group in Mesoamerica and there are castles and fortresses combining Norse and other European fortifications and architecture and Aztec or Mayan pyramids and other features.
 
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