Modern Ottoman Empire
- Thread starter Fenwick
- Start date
I think they would need to look towards Europe more and try to sever the more restricting beliefs in Islam. Not atheism, but a more secularized worldview for the time. A greater move to educate their citizens, coupled with the government pushing for the creation of heavy industries. Or forming trading/shipping companies especially for where they are situated they have great access to Europe, Asia and Africa.
Even more, exactly what kind of an modern Ottoman Empire are you thinking of?
Is it the classic Ottoman Empire as it was around 1800-1820?
Or are thinking more of a reduced empire, in which the main non-muslim area's like Bulgaria, Macedonia, Serbia,
Armenia, Greece (or perhaps several Greek states, like Pontus and perhaps Cyprus) have become independant?
Remember that in OTL, the Empire imploded mainly because of ethnic and especially religious tensions.
How would a modern Ottoman Empire cope with that?
And then there is the issue of the role of Islam and the Caliphate (which was claimed by the sultan)...
How will these affect the world, and especially the muslim world?
Remember that until the fall of the Ottoman Empire, several politicians and researchers from the Western colonial powers feared the possebility that the Ottoman sultan would use his official position as Caliph to gain influence over the millions of muslims in the European colonies, like Africa and south Asia.
And in the WWI in OTL, the sultan/Caliph actually used his authority to declare the jihad againest the Allies,
hoping to start an immense rebellion in the vulnerable French and British colonies, as well as in Russian Central-Asia.
The attempt failed miserably, though, as almost no muslim actually started an uprising or any other form of hostile action to their colonial government. Most muslims also saw that this jihad was purely political, and had nothing to do with actual fighting in the name of Islam.
And it is worth mentioning that the Ottoman minister who actually proposed this plan, was in fact an atheist...
And because of that, all those good old encyclopedias from the fifties and the sixties described the jihad as a dead letter, perhaps comparable to strict fasting and the modern Roman Catholic Church.
Nonetheless, the survival and continuation of the Caliphate would still have a notable effect on sunni islam in general, especially in world politics in times of peace.
And it would also make quite a difference if the cities of Mecca and Medina remained into the hands of the Ottomans
and the moderate Caliphate, instead of a fundamentalist wahhabi-kingdom, as we see today with Saudi-Arabia.
And as an interesting footnote: in case the Caliphate would be maintained,
what kind of effect would it have on modern often wahhabi-inspired muslimfundamentalism and political Islam?
Is it the classic Ottoman Empire as it was around 1800-1820?
Or are thinking more of a reduced empire, in which the main non-muslim area's like Bulgaria, Macedonia, Serbia,
Armenia, Greece (or perhaps several Greek states, like Pontus and perhaps Cyprus) have become independant?
Remember that in OTL, the Empire imploded mainly because of ethnic and especially religious tensions.
How would a modern Ottoman Empire cope with that?
And then there is the issue of the role of Islam and the Caliphate (which was claimed by the sultan)...
How will these affect the world, and especially the muslim world?
Remember that until the fall of the Ottoman Empire, several politicians and researchers from the Western colonial powers feared the possebility that the Ottoman sultan would use his official position as Caliph to gain influence over the millions of muslims in the European colonies, like Africa and south Asia.
And in the WWI in OTL, the sultan/Caliph actually used his authority to declare the jihad againest the Allies,
hoping to start an immense rebellion in the vulnerable French and British colonies, as well as in Russian Central-Asia.
The attempt failed miserably, though, as almost no muslim actually started an uprising or any other form of hostile action to their colonial government. Most muslims also saw that this jihad was purely political, and had nothing to do with actual fighting in the name of Islam.
And it is worth mentioning that the Ottoman minister who actually proposed this plan, was in fact an atheist...
And because of that, all those good old encyclopedias from the fifties and the sixties described the jihad as a dead letter, perhaps comparable to strict fasting and the modern Roman Catholic Church.
Nonetheless, the survival and continuation of the Caliphate would still have a notable effect on sunni islam in general, especially in world politics in times of peace.
And it would also make quite a difference if the cities of Mecca and Medina remained into the hands of the Ottomans
and the moderate Caliphate, instead of a fundamentalist wahhabi-kingdom, as we see today with Saudi-Arabia.
And as an interesting footnote: in case the Caliphate would be maintained,
what kind of effect would it have on modern often wahhabi-inspired muslimfundamentalism and political Islam?
Keenir
Banned
Get Europe (and America to a degree) to stop interfering in Ottoman affairs every time the Ottomans tried to improve teh Empire.
There've always been Muslims in there.
(or are you saying that the Bulgar Turks were Christian?)
And their neighbor nations, like France and Austria and Britain.
Here's a thought: who would the Ottoman royals marry?
(hm, a British prince marrying an Ottoman princess?)
It would probably still exist -- after all, it didn't stop Sunni sects from trying to start uprisings during the lifetime of the OTL Ottoman Empire.
Definitely LESS corruption and start some kind of oligarchy dedicated on bringing change to the empire. I believe that OE's Muslim territories were still strong enough to be the core of the new empire.
What OE lack is capable leadership. Compounded with wide-spread corruption that saw the army weakened after Crimean War. Compare OE to Japan which built her economy, institutions to promote commerce & economy, competent beaurreucay and western army and navy.
Methinks OE too focused in reforming the army and neglecting the other. Not realizing that these are necessary for a new empire.
Under Omar Pasha in Crimea, Osman Pasha at Pleven & Kemal Pasha at Gallipoli, the Turks proved that -given good generalship & supplies- they can hold on their own.
So I think it's possible to transform OE. However it would take a massive effort & not just partial efforts like armed-forces (though it's important too).
cheers & be well,
Rad
Yeah, but these Bulgarian Turks and Pomaks (Bulgarian muslims) were still not quite the majority (although they were a major minority...), and their presence didn't stop the Christian Bulgarians from declaring an independant Bulgaria in OTL, even though the European nations certainly played an important part in actually realizing that independance.
And don't underestimate the sheer strenght of the nationalism and will to be free of especially the Orthodox Christian peoples of the Balkans, which really was the main reason of the many Christian rebellions againest the Ottoman authorities. The European nations merely helped these local nationalists.
That's very unlikely, just because of the religious issue.
The Protestant royalty of Europe didn't even intermarry with Catholic royalty, let alone with muslim royalty...
And it's not until quite a while after WWII when these rules and codes in this became any less strict.
And a Christian British prince with a muslim Ottoman princess!?
Oh come on! That would have been totally unacceptable for just about the whole worldwide muslim community!
True, the wahhabi's didn't quite respect the Caliphate of the Ottoman sultan either.
But the continuation of the Caliphate would propably have a somewhat stabilizing effect on the worldwide muslim community,
as it still gives a sense of a unified religious leadership that is absent among them right now.
Although that position could very well become a bit less political and a bit more religious, especially in a scenario in which the Ottoman Empire becomes more like the Western nations, and the role of the sultan is restricted to a purely ceremonial one within a constitutional democracy.
Admiral Matt
Gone Fishin'
German victory in WW1. That's all it takes.
Seriously though, the Ottomans were constantly reforming and did a pretty good job of it overall. The problem they had was the same one Russia had: the Western nations aren't reforming, they're just doing it right in the first place. You don't get ahead by copying the people doing better than you - at best you catch up some.
The war would likely give them Egypt, and even if not, they'd still consolidate their hold on Arabia and get a little more land from Russia. They have most of the world's oil, and are strong enough to bargain with it. They have an serious population base. With Russia smacked down they have real territorial security. They already have the reforms in line that Attaturk continued. That's makes them a France-level power, easily. Likely even more powerful.
In fact, basically and POD can do, if it somehow prevents their dismemberment in the aftermath of a World War. They were already on the track to match or surpass (mainland) France and Britain in economic and military power. And as to culture... they already had an equal culture. We didn't read their books or look at their art first because they were Muslims, and then later because they lost the war and were more or less destroyed.
Seriously though, the Ottomans were constantly reforming and did a pretty good job of it overall. The problem they had was the same one Russia had: the Western nations aren't reforming, they're just doing it right in the first place. You don't get ahead by copying the people doing better than you - at best you catch up some.
The war would likely give them Egypt, and even if not, they'd still consolidate their hold on Arabia and get a little more land from Russia. They have most of the world's oil, and are strong enough to bargain with it. They have an serious population base. With Russia smacked down they have real territorial security. They already have the reforms in line that Attaturk continued. That's makes them a France-level power, easily. Likely even more powerful.
In fact, basically and POD can do, if it somehow prevents their dismemberment in the aftermath of a World War. They were already on the track to match or surpass (mainland) France and Britain in economic and military power. And as to culture... they already had an equal culture. We didn't read their books or look at their art first because they were Muslims, and then later because they lost the war and were more or less destroyed.
It might not even take that; you could have the Turkish Revolutionaries lose their "War of Independence". Sure, there wouldn't be much left of the Empire, but it would still exist.
NO Great War
The Great War averted--or even delayed--could do a world of good.
Suppose that Archduke Ferdinand wasn't assassinated that fine day.
Europe procedes as before--still a powderkeg, but no short fuze burning.
The Ottomans get their two shiny new battleships from Britian on schedule, so the inflamatory seizure of what became Erin and Agincourt never happens.
This makes it much harder for Germany to recruit the Ottoman Empire into the Central Powers, even if Goeben's escape to Istanbul isn't butterflied away. If Goeben DOES reach Instanbul, she might be interned, or sold in truth to the Ottomans-not the "sale" that left Germans on board and able to act.
The Empire is now much less likely to end up in the war--and if it does, might be persuaded to join the Entente.
The Great War averted--or even delayed--could do a world of good.
Suppose that Archduke Ferdinand wasn't assassinated that fine day.
Europe procedes as before--still a powderkeg, but no short fuze burning.
The Ottomans get their two shiny new battleships from Britian on schedule, so the inflamatory seizure of what became Erin and Agincourt never happens.
This makes it much harder for Germany to recruit the Ottoman Empire into the Central Powers, even if Goeben's escape to Istanbul isn't butterflied away. If Goeben DOES reach Instanbul, she might be interned, or sold in truth to the Ottomans-not the "sale" that left Germans on board and able to act.
The Empire is now much less likely to end up in the war--and if it does, might be persuaded to join the Entente.
Ah, but this is AH.com, so "Cornwall" is actually pretty large, covering all of England and most of Northern France.
Keenir
Banned
Ah, but this is AH.com, so "Cornwall" is actually pretty large, covering all of England and most of Northern France.
sorry, I meant OTL Cornwall.
my mistake.
Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
You must've learned some very different history. Here's how I know it: Britain, France and Austria didn't stop Mahmud II from destroying the Janissaries, they saved the Ottomans' ass in the Crimean War, they had nothing to do with the failure of the constitutional attempts in the mid 1870s, and so on, and so on. In fact Britain and Austria were the 2 nations that would have had most to lose out of the fall of the Ottoman Empire. Britain rejected at least 2 Russian offers to partition it. Everybody feared a Russian advance through Turkey to the Mediterranean. The only foreign power that would have had anything more to gain than to lose was, obviously, Russia.
I know you like to blame other countries for the Ottomans' fall, but you've picked just about the worst targets.
Thande
Donor
I think that's a SLIGHT exaggeration
(Unless of course as Imajin says it's one of ES's Cornwalls
but even all of Britain is smaller than the Turkey shown here)You are not counting the occupied territories, however. They aren't shown on the map either. I don't think they would be given back.I think that's a SLIGHT exaggeration
(Unless of course as Imajin says it's one of ES's Cornwalls
I thought the occupied territories were Smyrna and the Zone of the Straits, which are shown on the map?