Zipper not invented or invented at a different time

[Petike]

Sometimes, it's the little things in life that make or break history...

What if the zipper was not invented around 1913-1915, as in OTL ?

What if it was invented much later, or perhaps sooner than in OTL ? (Maybe Howe or Judson make more progress during the second half of the 19th century ?)

Also, could there have been an alternate design for the zipper than in OTL, and could it have achieved mass adoption instead of the OTL design (provided it worked just as well) ?


"But, Petike... Zippers... as a POD. Really ?", you say. Well, I say: "Certainly. Just look all around you, just sort through all the clothing and bags you have at home. Imagine them without zippers. Imagine a modern world without zippers. Just imagine how alien it could and would be."

 

[Alstein]

Would tights and sweatpants replace pants as a general rule?

 

[NCW8]

"But, Petike... Zippers... as a POD. Really ?", you say. Well, I say: "Certainly. Just look all around you, just sort through all the clothing and bags you have at home. Imagine them without zippers. Imagine a modern world without zippers. Just imagine how alien it could and would be."

We'd all be using Velcro instead ?


If the zipper was invented at a different time, it would have affected Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. IOTL, the book contains numerous mentions of clothing using zippers - they are implied to be ultra-modern and probably decadent. A much later invention would mean that they wouldn't be around at the time the book was written and a much earlier invention would mean that they'd be seen as more common place.


Cheers,
Nigel.

 

[Tom Colton]

We'd all be using Velcro instead ?

I gotta say, getting caught in Velcro instead of a zipper sounds way less painful.

 

[Petike]

For the record, I don't buy into the whole notion of "We replace it with Velcro !". Let's focus on Velcro not being invented any time soon and how the zipper-less decades would be affected.

Certain types of modern clothing are borderline impossible without the application of zippers.

If the zipper was invented at a different time, it would have affected Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. IOTL, the book contains numerous mentions of clothing using zippers - they are implied to be ultra-modern and probably decadent. A much later invention would mean that they wouldn't be around at the time the book was written and a much earlier invention would mean that they'd be seen as more common place.

Good point on all the cultural impacts it would have, including the arts.

I gotta say, getting caught in Velcro instead of a zipper sounds way less painful.

That it does.

Would tights and sweatpants replace pants as a general rule?

I'd prefer to not imagine that in too much detail.

 

[The Uchronian]

Sometimes, it's the little things in life that make or break history...

What if the zipper was not invented around 1913-1915, as in OTL ?

What if it was invented much later, or perhaps sooner than in OTL ? (Maybe Howe or Judson make more progress during the second half of the 19th century ?)

Also, could there have been an alternate design for the zipper than in OTL, and could it have achieved mass adoption instead of the OTL design (provided it worked just as well) ?


"But, Petike... Zippers... as a POD. Really ?", you say. Well, I say: "Certainly. Just look all around you, just sort through all the clothing and bags you have at home. Imagine them without zippers. Imagine a modern world without zippers. Just imagine how alien it could and would be."

I'm not particularly convinced that zippers would not be invented at all, TBH.....it's really a question of *when* they would be, and what they would be called. But I do agree that a delayed intervention might have a not-insignificant impact on our culture; NCW8's example of Brave New World's mention of them is a good mention, I think.

 

[wietze]

i looked at the first patent, and the original howe patent looks a lot like the zippers they sometimes use for surgical purposes.

earliest zipper like device i can imagine is more like the lace & buckle kind of device like you find on shoes. 1850-1860 is pretty much the earliest the modern zipper can appear, due to manufacturing restrictions.

velcro is really a no go, since it is somewhat complicated to manufacture.
more likely that press buttons (snap fasteners) prevail in a lot of situation over the traditional buttons.

Would tights and sweatpants replace pants as a general rule?

for women skirts stay in fashion, for men Kilts become fashionable LOL

 

[Gunnarnz]

Would tights and sweatpants replace pants as a general rule?

Can't see why they would. There's nothing about zippers that prevents trousers from being made - if you're thinking of the fly, it's perfectly possible to make them using buttons. My favourite pair of jeans had a button fly.

 

[dean6294]

There's a limit on how early a truly effective zipper could have been produced. I remember clothing I had as a child (and I'm not that old) where the zipper would regularly jam or malfunction in some way - usually resulting in having my mother sew a replacement into my trousers or jacket.

 

[Helios Ra]

Well, I guess the first thing to ask is what kind of pants did people wear before the zipper was invented?

 

[Petike]

Well, I guess the first thing to ask is what kind of pants did people wear before the zipper was invented?

I think most trousers simply had more buttons in the crotch area, or didn't have too prominent a split in said area.

There's a limit on how early a truly effective zipper could have been produced. I remember clothing I had as a child (and I'm not that old) where the zipper would regularly jam or malfunction in some way - usually resulting in having my mother sew a replacement into my trousers or jacket.

Oh, we've all been through this at least a few times in our lives. Zippers can be like that at times...

 

[Just Leo]

Snaps. buckles, buttons and laces can all do the job, after a fashion.

I have a 40 year old one-piece snowmobile suit that I was considering throwing out. It's not as warm now, and I'm terrified that the zipper, from left ankle to roll-up collar, will jam up and trap me forever.

A wittier man than me once said "It's better to have pecker tracks on your zipper than zipper tracks on your pecker". He also said it's better to be pissed off than pissed on. Both tasteless, but both true. Funny what some people remember.

 

[Petike]

Leo... *clap, clap, clap*

Naturally, my point in this thread is not so much "oh no, we cannot live without zippers" as "in what ways would our every day world be different without zippers".

 

[Just Leo]

Tents and soft luggage will have to change, and it won't be easy.

 

[NCW8]

Tents and soft luggage will have to change, and it won't be easy.

A long time ago, when I was in the Scouts, we used tents whose entrance could be laced up. It wasn't quite as easy as a zipper, but it wasn't particularly difficult.

Straps and buckles worked quite well on old-fashioned school satchels, so that's one possibility for soft luggage.

Cheers,
Nigel.

 

[riggerrob]

How about magnets or snaps?

 

[riggerrob]

Zipper is basically an automated version of hooks and loops.
What about automated buttons?
... automated grooves and ridges?

 

[Cash]

IIRC some military uniforms still use button flies. My first sets of fatigues in 1972 had button flies, but then they probably dated back to WWII if the fit was any indication! Certain types of Levi jeans had button flies in the 1960s, including a pair my then-girlfriend wore. (I swear they may well have been the only birth-control device sanctioned by the Vatican.) No zippers would change fashion a little, but what function do zippers perform that buttons, laces, or hooks and eyes couldn't?

 

[Just Leo]

I was just thinking, while mumbling a version of Wayne Brady's Zipper Love, that there is just one thing worse, or more pitiful, than offering up a thread about zippers.

 

[Petike]

What about automated buttons?

But how would those work ?

...automated grooves and ridges?

An interesting solution that could possibly work, but I can imagine they could be a hassle to repair if they'd get stuck. At least when an OTL zipper gets stuck, you can actually access it. A grooves-and-ridges system would have to clasp into itself. It wouldn't be exposed externally from the fabric side of either of the two connecting parts. If they would get stuck into each other, you'd have to cut off a whole bit of fabric from your clothes in order to fix them.

How about magnets or snaps?

Hm, that depends... What type of snaps, exactly ?

As for magnets... Possibly, though they would have to be strong enough. Still, I think a mundane item-style weak magnet could be separated a bit too easily. This could possibly lead to people losing stuff from their pockets inadvertently or suffering embarassing clothes failures.

A long time ago, when I was in the Scouts, we used tents whose entrance could be laced up. It wasn't quite as easy as a zipper, but it wasn't particularly difficult.

No zippers would change fashion a little, but what function do zippers perform that buttons, laces, or hooks and eyes couldn't?

In such an ATL, we'd probably have a design to clothes and canvas equipment that would seem a bit "conservative" from an OTL point of view.

Tents and soft luggage will have to change, and it won't be easy.

Straps and buckles worked quite well on old-fashioned school satchels, so that's one possibility for soft luggage.

True.

I looked at the first patent, and the original howe patent looks a lot like the zippers they sometimes use for surgical purposes.

Fancy that !

earliest zipper like device i can imagine is more like the lace & buckle kind of device like you find on shoes. 1850-1860 is pretty much the earliest the modern zipper can appear, due to manufacturing restrictions.

I see !

Obviously, the manufacturing restrictions of the 19th century pose a problem in this field. As a related example, even a commonplace modern industrial metal like alluminium only started to get manufacture en masse during the 1860s ! It's not unreasonable to think that some of the smaller, precision-made metal parts that a proper zipper (or something appproaching it) requires, would be simply not be available as a technological solution at the time.

velcro is really a no go, since it is somewhat complicated to manufacture.

Yeah. I don't understand why people in this discussion are so willing to jump to the conclusion that Velcro will be invented anyway, or even sooner, as an answer to the missing zipper. Sure, they're called "dry zippers" in some languages for a reason, but some people seem to be clueless about how long it took to develop Velcro.

You could argue that, without a 20th century with a similar course as OTL - particularly the presence of a Space Race - there would be no Velcro, or only a very primitive version of it. Velcro is one of those things that only really started to be implemented in civilian applications once it proved useful in NASA's spaceflight programme and parts of the military.

more likely that press buttons (snap fasteners) prevail in a lot of situation over the traditional buttons.

This is probably the type of snap connection that Bob was talking about in this thread.