Yugoslavia + Albania = ?

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

Assume Albania joins Yugoslavia at some point after WWII; how this happens is irrelevant to this particular discussion. Considering that it is no longer a South Slavic federation, what name would the resulting country have?

 

[von Adler]

"Federation of Yugoslavia and Albania" or something similar, I suspect.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

"Federation of Yugoslavia and Albania" or something similar, I suspect.

More neutral may be needed - like, 'Balkanese(?) Federation'. Or maybe it would be more a CONfederation, as the state is more multiethnical, and larger, so...more local autonomy, I fear.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

I was thinking of it joining as a republic on an equal footing with the others, so "Yugoslavia and Albania" doesn't really work.

 

[ctesiphon]

I think it's quite likely it would remain Yugoslavia. Or perhaps something relating to the region's past names, like Illyria.

 

[MSZ]

It would remain Yugoslavia; Stalin suggested to Tito in a personal conversation to "swallow up Albania" (while pretending he was putting something in his mouth and making a loaud GULP-sound). Tito refused, as doing so would distance him from the westand make more dependant on Stalin. So a good PoD could with the Red Army making it to Yugoslavia during WWII and going through with Stalin's plan.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

I know that the 'Yugos' means 'southern', is it? And 'slavia', well... I wonder btw then what would be 'nations' by example...

 

[Hörnla]

1. I think the name is the smallest problem. Yugoslavia is sort of an established brand, it would probably stick - the Kosovo is full of Albanians and that didn't change the name, neither the Hungarian minority.

2. Yugoslavia was an increasingly federal state actually, that made it so easy to fall apart. So I wouldn't say that there would be a larger degree of autonomy needed.

3. The real can of worms would be if the Albanian Republic would be OK with the Kosovo remaining a part of the Serbian Republic. This might actually escalate the crisis there earlier. Either a solution is to be found (which might be easier within a state, and the earlier the better) which works long-term, or there would be a lot more strain on Yugoslavia from early on.

4. Either way, the butterflies from such an expansion might be enormous and even lead to a survival of a Yugoslavian State into the present - or to an even more complicated carnage.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

1. I think the name is the smallest problem. Yugoslavia is sort of an established brand, it would probably stick - the Kosovo is full of Albanians and that didn't change the name, neither the Hungarian minority.

True, but the Albanians and Hungarians were not constituent nations - they didn't have their own republics.

2. Yugoslavia was an increasingly federal state actually, that made it so easy to fall apart. So I wouldn't say that there would be a larger degree of autonomy needed.

If this is addressed to me, I never suggested otherwise.

3. The real can of worms would be if the Albanian Republic would be OK with the Kosovo remaining a part of the Serbian Republic. This might actually escalate the crisis there earlier. Either a solution is to be found (which might be easier within a state, and the earlier the better) which works long-term, or there would be a lot more strain on Yugoslavia from early on.

I think it's very likely that Albania would get Kosovo or at least Metohija/the Dukagjini Plateau as an enticement to joining Yugoslavia.

 

[Dementor]

I know that the 'Yugos' means 'southern', is it? And 'slavia', well... I wonder btw then what would be 'nations' by example...

Narodi. Though that might be more exactly translated as "peoples". I think that Naciji also exists as a loanword.

 

[DanMcCollum]

True, but the Albanians and Hungarians were not constituent nations - they didn't have their own republics.

If this is addressed to me, I never suggested otherwise.

I think it's very likely that Albania would get Kosovo or at least Metohija/the Dukagjini Plateau as an enticement to joining Yugoslavia.

Although Kosovo and the Hungarian regions of Serbia were not independent Republics within Yugoslavia, they were largely autonomous provinces. I could certainly see Tito set up a vote in Kosovo to see if the population would be willing to remain part of Serbia or join the Albanian Yugoslav Republic. I doubt that this would be a problem at the time, although it might cause problems when/if Yugoslavia eventually breaks up.
Tito, from my reading at least, seems to have been very open to Albania joining Yugoslavia, but such plans were stalled when he made his break with Stalin.
Perhaps we could have a POD were Tito doesn't break with Stalin as quickly, and Hoxa ends up falling from power (his foreign policy was erratic, as he jumped aroudn from being a dedicated Stalinist, to moving closer to Tito, to ending up as a Moaist).
Of course, if we want to end up with a Maximum-Yugoslavia, have Bulgaria join at roughly the same time (and then have the Stalin-Tito split to occur) and you suddenly have a non-affiliated COmmunist government holding all of the Communist Balkan nations, which would be interesting. (although this will cause problems with the USSR, I personally believe that once Stalin dies, that the USSR isn't going to make any aggressive moves towards a government which has already broken away)

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

Although Kosovo and the Hungarian regions of Serbia were not independent Republics within Yugoslavia, they were largely autonomous provinces.

Yes, but the distinction was relevant. Yugoslavia was the state of (some of) the South Slavs and the Albanians and Hungarians were supposed to be the "real" minorities; it's why Kosovo wasn't a republic and the Krajina Serbs didn't have any sort of autonomy. Bulgaria joining would change nothing; Albania joining would require a redefinition of the country's identity.

Perhaps we could have a POD were Tito doesn't break with Stalin as quickly, and Hoxa ends up falling from power (his foreign policy was erratic, as he jumped aroudn from being a dedicated Stalinist, to moving closer to Tito, to ending up as a Moaist).

Hoxha was a devoted Stalinist (which meant being pro-Tito before the split) and turned to Maoism once Khrushchev's ideological deviations got on his nerves. I'm not really interested in the how's and why's, just the what's.

Of course, if we want to end up with a Maximum-Yugoslavia, have Bulgaria join at roughly the same time (and then have the Stalin-Tito split to occur) and you suddenly have a non-affiliated COmmunist government holding all of the Communist Balkan nations, which would be interesting.

If both Albania and Bulgaria join then it would be logical to call the new country the Balkan Federation or some variation of that.

 

[Alex1guy]

Yugoslavia + Albania = Yugobania

I win!

 

[Fearless Leader]

Actually, Albania joining Yugoslavia came a lot closer to happening than most people realize.

You see the Albanian communists were a somewhat odd lot from what I can tell. They barely register on the Albanian political spectrum before 1943. In 1942 they have only around 150 registered members. Furthermore the Albanian communists were plagued with a fairly major deep ideological divide between the pro-Yugoslav faction which favoured a pan-Balkan federation, and the pro-independence faction which favoured an independent Albania. It didn't take long once it became apparent that the Communists would dominate post-war Albania for the two sides to begin fighting.

Now initially the pro-Yugoslav faction seems to have held a large number of cards. For a while prior to 1948 Albania was drawing closer and closer to Yugoslavia (Albanian currency being valued against the Yugoslavian Dinar, customs union etc.). Furthermore Tito apparently was making plans for the incorporation of Albania into Yugoslavia as another Federal Republic. Plans existed to create a kind of "Greater Albania" by lumping all or most of the ethnic Albanians into one Yugoslav Federal Republic. Things were getting so bad that a prominent pro-independence member of the party committed suicide in 1948 after confronting the leader of the pro-Yugoslav faction Kochi Xoxe about the growing Yugoslav dominance of Albania.

However this was all averted when Hoxha came to view the pro-Yugoslav faction of the party as a key threat to his power. Trumped up charges were made against Xoxe and other members of the pro-Yugoslav faction and they were promptly executed/arrested and sent to labour camps.

I think the best POD for such a scenario would be to have the pro-Yugoslav faction strike first against Hoxha and take control of the country. Albania then opts to join Yugoslavia sometime in 1949/50 as another Federal Republic having parts of Kosovo, Montenegro and Macedonia added to it's territory as well as gaining considerable autonomy.

Now...though I can see such a deal being negotiated and signed by the leadership...I'm not so sure if the people themselves would accept it. The Albanian people are notoriously nationalistic and I'm not sure they'd accept being under Tito even if it meant Greater Albania. King Zog's attempted coup in 1949 might get a bit more play in TTL. Ditto with the Serbs...the relationship between the two was never good and having to surrender a large chunk of Kosovo and potentially Montenegro/Macedonia to them would not sit well at all... But given enough time this could be resolved with liberal use of government power IMO. Perhaps some more compromises to salve the Serbs?

The real question IMO is how the Albanian Federal Yugoslav Republic reacts to the collapse of Yugoslavia (assuming it happens in OTL). In TTL clashes between Serbs/Albanians could very well serve to set off such a string of events.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

If the Albanian constituent republic were to receive all or half of Kosovo, as I think it would, might the decision be made to move the capital to Prizren, a city of far greater import in Albanian history than Tirana? Also, might Northern Epirus receive autonomy on the model of Vojvodina (and formerly Kosovo), possibly to serve as a base for subversive activities against Greece (as the Soviets had done with the Karelian and Moldovan ASSRs)?

 

[Plumber]

If the Albanian constituent republic were to receive all or half of Kosovo, as I think it would, might the decision be made to move the capital to Prizren, a city of far greater import in Albanian history than Tirana? Also, might Northern Epirus receive autonomy on the model of Vojvodina (and formerly Kosovo), possibly to serve as a base for subversive activities against Greece (as the Soviets had done with the Karelian and Moldovan ASSRs)?

Yes and yes. And it would still be called Yugoslavia for sure. Even with Bulgaria too.

 

[Fearless Leader]

If the Albanian constituent republic were to receive all or half of Kosovo, as I think it would, might the decision be made to move the capital to Prizren, a city of far greater import in Albanian history than Tirana? Also, might Northern Epirus receive autonomy on the model of Vojvodina (and formerly Kosovo), possibly to serve as a base for subversive activities against Greece (as the Soviets had done with the Karelian and Moldovan ASSRs)?

The plans I'd read had Tito being willing to give up not only almost all of Kosovo, but a large chunk of Macedonia and Southern Montenegro. Basically the idea was to put as many ethnic Albanians as possible inside the Albanian Federal Republic. IMO this might make most Albanians willing to grudgingly accept being part of a larger polity.

The moving of the capital might be a bit problematic for a couple reasons. The biggest I can think of right now is linguistic. Albanian has two major dialects Gheg (northern) and Tosk (southern) the nice thing about Tirana is that it's pretty much smack dab in the middle of the two dialectical zones. Also keep in mind that most of the communist party were Tosk speakers and communist support by and large was centered on the southern portion of the country. I'd be surprised if the Albanian communist party agreed to move it's capital so far from it's base of power even if it were extremely Yugoslaviphile. Tirana also does have the history of being Albania's first capital from 1920-1939 as well as having easy access to the port of Durres. Prizren is less advantageous in this regard.

As for your idea of having Northern Epirus become an independent province, I'm not so sure this would happen for the following reasons (Assuming A POD with Xoxe and the pro-Yugoslav faction gaining prominence in 1948 and pushing through on the planned integration...)

1. By the time Albania's integrated in TTL it's going to be 1949/50 at the earliest. Would Tito really want to "hitch his wagon" to the Greek Communists by supporting them so brazenly in TTL?

2. Such a move would undo a lot of the good will created by giving the Albanians Kosovo/other parts of Greater Albania, especially since the Albanians consider Northwestern Greece (Chameria to the Albanians) part of Greater Albania.

Yes and yes. And it would still be called Yugoslavia for sure. Even with Bulgaria too.

Though I'd agree that with an Albanian republic Yugoslavia would retain it's name. Having Bulgaria and Albania included would probably lead to a different name though IMO as the Bulgars and Albanians would be population groups simply too big to ignore.

Some other thoughts...

-The Albanian economy in such a situation is going to be massively different than OTL mainly due to the lack of Enver Hoxha's projects. For one thing millions of tons of cement and steel and hundreds of thousands of man hours won't be wasted on an unparalleled system of bunkers throughout the country.

From what I've read the pro-Yugoslav faction was far more economically pragmatic and agriculturalist. They wanted to focus on land reform and infrastructure building in order to increase Albania's agricultural productivity. Heavy Industry and other such projects were to be left to a later date while the emphasis was put on lifting the Albanian villages (in which over 80% of the population lived) out of abject poverty. That being said there's some projects they might undertake anyway such as hydroelectric dams but IMO the majority of their emphasis is going to be on agriculture for the short term at least.

 

[Plumber]

Why can't Bulgars be Yugoslavs? They're literally South Slavs as well, and everyone understood that.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

Tirana also does have the history of being Albania's first capital from 1920-1939 as well as having easy access to the port of Durres. Prizren is less advantageous in this regard.

The first de jure capital of the restored Albania was Durres, for what that was worth. Prizren is sort of the Albanian Philadelphia.

As for your idea of having Northern Epirus become an independent province, I'm not so sure this would happen for the following reasons (Assuming A POD with Xoxe and the pro-Yugoslav faction gaining prominence in 1948 and pushing through on the planned integration...)

And assuming the Tito-Stalin split is averted or resolved early on by the removal of the former?

1. By the time Albania's integrated in TTL it's going to be 1949/50 at the earliest. Would Tito really want to "hitch his wagon" to the Greek Communists by supporting them so brazenly in TTL?

The Greek Civil War could easily have gone on for longer. In any case, Tito was far more supportive of the DSE than Stalin was - his assertiveness on this and other issues contributed to their split. The DSE doomed itself by siding with Stalin.

Alternately, Northern Epirus could be granted autonomy to improve relations with Greece. The measure works both ways.

2. Such a move would undo a lot of the good will created by giving the Albanians Kosovo/other parts of Greater Albania, especially since the Albanians consider Northwestern Greece (Chameria to the Albanians) part of Greater Albania.

It's a pretty good trade for the Albanians, not that they necessarily have to be told about it when they join. As for being upset about it, Tito would override their objections just as he did Serbian objections on Kosovo and Vojvodina.

 

[Fearless Leader]

The first de jure capital of the restored Albania was Durres, for what that was worth. Prizren is sort of the Albanian Philadelphia.

From what I've gathered from talking to Albanians and reading Albanian language sources, Tirana was far more influential as a capital city than Durres. Remember that Wilhelm of Wied only remained on the throne for 6 months and he never really had control of much of the countryside. Tirana was the capital the Albanians "chose" and used for a good chunk of their history. This coupled with it's location in the middle of the country also didn't hurt matters. Furthermore, Durres also has the unfortunate history of being site to the Congress of Durres which in 1919 offered the Albanian throne to an Italian prince in an endeavour to preserve the nation's independence...

In a sense, The situation with Tirana is similar to that of Washington DC. The District of Columbia was chosen as a compromise site to soothe both the Northern and Southern States. Philadelphia and New York both would've made excellent capitals, but doing so would've isolated the south.

In the same way, I think potential Albanian capitals in the Northern Part of the country (Shkoder, Prizren) would be avoided due to the need to keep the South onside.

And assuming the Tito-Stalin split is averted or resolved early on by the removal of the former?

To be honest I hadn't thought of having Tito removed from the picture post-war. THAT would be interesting, but as I don't know enough about Yugoslav politics to comment I'll refrain from doing so. Not sure if there's someone else who can both avoid the Yugoslav/USSR rift AND keep Yugoslavia together.

The Greek Civil War could easily have gone on for longer. In any case, Tito was far more supportive of the DSE than Stalin was - his assertiveness on this and other issues contributed to their split. The DSE doomed itself by siding with Stalin.

Alternately, Northern Epirus could be granted autonomy to improve relations with Greece. The measure works both ways.

Not sure how an autonomous province of Northern Epirus would improve relations with Greece though. Care to explain? I guess by guaranteeing rights to the Greek population...but considering it's communist affiliation I'm skeptical.

Such a province would certainly create a complicated situation come the collapse of Yugoslavia in TTL (assuming it happens)

It's a pretty good trade for the Albanians, not that they necessarily have to be told about it when they join. As for being upset about it, Tito would override their objections just as he did Serbian objections on Kosovo and Vojvodina.

Well I guess It could work...I'd be interested in seeing the proposed borders for such an autonomous Republic of Northern Epirus. I'd wager it'd become a haven for Greek Communists when/if the Greek Civil War starts to simmer down.

Some other thoughts...

If the Albanian speaking regions of Kosovo, Macedonia, and Montenegro are incorporated into the Albanian constituent Republic and an autonomous province of Northern Epirus is created, one interesting angle would be the evolution of the Albanian language. Though one of the oldest languages in Europe by most accounts, the Albanian language only began to be standardized and alphabetized in the early 20th century. However due to the two different dialects and political instability it took until the 1970's for a Literary standard Albanian to take shape. Now though ostensibly Literary Albanian is a 50/50 mixture of Gheg/Tosk (Northern / Southern) dialects, in reality it's more like 10/90 with almost all aspects of Literary Albanian being nearly identical to the Tosk forms. Now in TTL given the massive inclusion of Gheg regions in Yugoslavia and the exclusion of Tosk speaking regions in the south this will probably be much different.