there is a diference of taking the court and taking a good chunk of population in the desert between the tarim basin you have to be really desperate and i think most would die even if the tocharians offered supplies and by this point the tocharian city states are not under tang control
Your favorite alt-migrations
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You're probably right about the carrying capacity of the Tarim Basin, although the OTL option, creating an area command in modern-day Afghanistan, seems uncomfortably close to the victorious Rashidun Caliphate. The other option I haven't explored is the Persians migrating to one of the kingdoms in the Indian subcontinent with Yazdgerd III offering his martial services to whoever takes him in. I know nothing about the political situation in the subcontinent in this time period so any experts on this forum please feel free to suggest a candidate polity.
This is for you, Aluma
Brazil got boosted in immigration from Asia after the Japanese victory over all of its enemies in the 40s and notably the Japanese themselves go on the mass to escape either political artist and protest prosecution by ithe Kempeitai thugs during the 50s and early 60s. Meaning many of those Asian people can do freely do what they want when they want in numerous places like São Paulo in Brazil as they won’t got persecuted by Army unlike in unfortunately China and many others who got under the Japanese Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere which no prosperity were guaranteed by the local Non-Japanese population.
Little China and Korea’s were still numerous places in Many major Brazilian cities as many of them inhabit and preserve their culture unlike when the Japanese boots strangling the neck of Asian countries. They produced many media and political integrated in the Brazilian culture as the Country of Brazil ally with the United States against the cold war, with Japan, and many of the people who are from the countries who crush by the imperial boot wish to have their homelands back again
This is almost the polar reverse of a thread I made here last year, I absolutely love it
Oh Shit! That just actual unbelievable but hey that life then and also it’s part of my Headcanon of TL191 too!!! and before you ask, yes they did to make Brasilia anime and it was great
Imagine Taiping led by Chad Pedro II
“Thank you Aluma and I hope you’re doing great too”
-Cassictor, Andean Mormon guy
Sacer Bubonicus
Banned
The Huns win at Chalons, migrate into France and create a Romance-Oghuric fusion culture ala the Franks.
The Alans migrate to Britain and make it an Iranic-speaking country.
I once saw a map on reddit where Korea was Nivkh, but for the life of me I can't find it anymore.
The Alans migrate to Britain and make it an Iranic-speaking country.
I once saw a map on reddit where Korea was Nivkh, but for the life of me I can't find it anymore.
Speaking of Sakhalin Island, one odd migration would be the of a remnant of the Northern Fujiwara clan fleeing to the island. OTL they were crushed by the Minamoto clan at the Battle of Oshu in 1189. ITTL the Fujiwara win a pyrrhic victory, knowing the next battle will be the end of them. In desperation the heir of the Northern Fujiwara, his retainers and perhaps a thousand of his subjects flee to Sakhalin Island, which they know of through trading contacts for furs. They bribe the Ainu in the southern half of the island to take them in and with the natives help they manage to endure the first brutal years as they try to recreate some semblance of what they knew in Japan. Forty percent of the settlement is lost in the first three years, but eventually things stabilize as they learn how to make a living from the Ainu. Trading contacts are eventually forged with Korea as the Northern Fujiwara establish themselves as middlemen in the trade of furs, which they obtain from the natives in exchange for iron tools.
How about a TL where the Bantu migrations don't happen and in southern & south-eastern africa we have several distinct Khoi-Khoi or Hottentot/Bushman civilizations that rise, fall, merge, conquer, assimilate, surrender, collapse and in some form or other rise, fall again and rise up again before the arrival of either the Portuguese OR the Omani's. Well , in any case I would read a TL about that premise.
Cheers, Joho
Cheers, Joho
Guthrum kills Alfred and becomes King of Wessex. As a result more Danes settle in the now secure Britain and to boost his numbers he even invites Norwegians. His son marries a carefully raised Athelflead.
This butterflies Normandy and delays Iceland but creates a more numerous Norse Saxon ethnic group that unites the British Isles other than Scotland.
Those independent minded and Pagan go to Iceland (Christians go to the continent) and when Iceland fills up, they keep going west and when a delayed Christianization of Scandinavia takes place, it is by fire and Sword rather like the Northern Crusades, so, rather than the trickle of of Lief Ericsson in our tl, we have a steady stream of battle hardened refugees coming into Newfoundland who can't go home again.
Norse America is a thing.
This butterflies Normandy and delays Iceland but creates a more numerous Norse Saxon ethnic group that unites the British Isles other than Scotland.
Those independent minded and Pagan go to Iceland (Christians go to the continent) and when Iceland fills up, they keep going west and when a delayed Christianization of Scandinavia takes place, it is by fire and Sword rather like the Northern Crusades, so, rather than the trickle of of Lief Ericsson in our tl, we have a steady stream of battle hardened refugees coming into Newfoundland who can't go home again.
Norse America is a thing.
prani
Banned
The eastern branch of Yamnaya people, the Afanasievo culture becomes as successful as its western counterparts and eventually moves along the Tien Shan mountain ranges and central Asia into south Asia. They would gate crash into south Asia just around 2600 BCE just when Indus valley civilization was taking off. The river valley would probably turn into one large grazing land for cattle (Which it is actually quite suited for around this time, Sky father would be happy indeed) instead of large organized cities we would probably large Kurgans in south Asia, of course would eventually be replaced by the Indo-Iranian migrants and from then on Indian History would progress in a analogous manner.
The butterflies would be enormous from Indian culture to how all south Asians look like, most likely equal mixture of native Hunter gatherer/Iranian Hunter Gatherer and Steppe Pastoralist, a culture that is heavily Indo European, Language spread that seemingly would make no sense geographically speaking and a hyper patriarchal society.
The butterflies would be enormous from Indian culture to how all south Asians look like, most likely equal mixture of native Hunter gatherer/Iranian Hunter Gatherer and Steppe Pastoralist, a culture that is heavily Indo European, Language spread that seemingly would make no sense geographically speaking and a hyper patriarchal society.
- Proto-Chukotko-Kamchatkans had domesticated either roe deer or reindeer (even both), as well as pastoralist lifestyle, from the [(ATL) Para-]Yeniseians as they migrated westward to either Fennoscandia or Pannonia-Dalmatia region.
- The ancestors of Malagasy speakers ended up in southern tip of Indian subcontinent, most particularly Tamil Nadu.
- The clans/tribes who were speaking proto-Philippine language ended up in eastern central Luzon, whole southern Luzon and Mindoro.
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Bulgars migrate to Pannonia instead of Moesia. Bolghar, a oghur turkic language takes roots in the region. Later on, the magyars try to migrate to pannonia but are defeated by the bulgars. The remaining magyars take refuge in the transylvanian mountains - Székely Land, or "Onoguria". The vlachs remain in Wallachia and Moesia.
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I have never heard of this. Got any sources? What major Maori rebellion?
Anyway, I've always been fascinated with the idea that the Anglo-Saxons don't migrate to Britain, and instead push west, ultimately landing in Brittany and expanding down the western coast of France.
It was during Titokowaru's or Te Kootis rebellion if I am not mistaken. I read about in James Belich book Making Peoples. He didn't elaborate on it much(I.E a whole sentence was devoted to it) but since he to my knowledge is a fairly well respected historian whose written extensively on the Maori wars so I am taking him at his word until I hear otherwise.
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If we're going by modern migrations, then here is one: The Taiping rebels head to a certain island down south...
The Sacred Republic (formerly Heavenly Kingdom) of Papua
After the failure of the Taiping Rebellion in 1864, Hong Xuanjiao manages to survive and with the death of her brother and her nephew, she becomes the leader of the Taiping. She decides to have her group cut their losses and they instead begin a plan to settle a new land... New Guinea. They begin taking stolen ships over across over to the island. Due to the lackluster Dutch presence on the island, they would begin settling and making prominent settlements. To ensure peace, they would likely cut a deal over with the Dutch. After all, the island didn't have much value to the Dutch at the time and thus the settlement would over on the top half primarily. This would cut off the Germans from trying to go and lay a claim on part of the island and before long, the British would get involved.
The Hong Dynasty cuts a deal over with the British to get some further stability and focus on growing themselves over in the region. Perhaps if they are lucky, they may be able to claim the whole island for themselves. British and Dutch are happy to try and get some resources from it and letting the Hong Dynasty serve as the middle-man. Over time, the Chinese refugees begin mixing in with more and more of the Papuan indigenous peoples. As the faith tries to stabilize, it takes in more and more of influnces, such as in becoming a state church like Anglicanisn. Born on a combination of Protestantism, some bits of Anglicanism, Chinese Confucianism and Papuan folk religion, this would be the foundation over for the Heavenly Kingdom. They'd likely be isolationist to a degree, focusing on settling and building up on the island along with remaining together as a whole nation, using faith and their hostile surrounding to remain together and not splinter, though they will federalize and delegate power.
They remain pretty closed off during World War 1, focusing mainly on gradually modernizing over time bit by bit and gradually their own cohesive identity. Hong Xuanjiao's legacy begins settling in such as her commanding and trainng of female warriors, which would play an influence over on the island as the cultures mix and Chinese becomes the unifying language on the island, though influence by the language. The Heavenly Kingdom Church also becomes stabilizing more, with Hong Xiuquan getting some sort of sainthood or holy reverence along with the various other heroes and the like, including Xuanjiao.
However, they would become likely involved over in World War 2 as the Japanese attempt their invasion of the Dutch Indies. The Dutch call upon them for aid and they do so though with the promise of Dutch and British assistance in modernizing. Despite them lagging behind, their numbers and training in reinforcing the the forces earn them some victories and they play a part over in the Pacific theater. All while reaping the benefits of assistance and investment from the Allies. By the end, they are beginning to grow more and more with outside investment and modern political movements. Perhaps the island becomes a spot for Chinese refugees while Christian democracy becomes a dominant force on the island in terms of culture and development. Despite this, they still focus a fair it over on self-reliance and growing. Likely undergoing some social movements regarding the indigenous peoples there and the like. The nation would survive the Cold War and into the new millenuim, known for its weird history and background along with rising issues such as environmentalism.
The Sacred Republic of Papua is now a federal parliamentary republic as the legacy of Hong Xiuquan becomes cultural and the state church with a prominent influence. Major politicla parties would be Christian democracy, social democracy and maybe a Christian socialist one given the protocommunist ideals of the Taiping Rebellion. Regarding Social Progress Index, GDP and HDI, I would say that at worst, they're just above Malaysia and at best... just below Chile or Argentina.
The Sacred Republic (formerly Heavenly Kingdom) of Papua
After the failure of the Taiping Rebellion in 1864, Hong Xuanjiao manages to survive and with the death of her brother and her nephew, she becomes the leader of the Taiping. She decides to have her group cut their losses and they instead begin a plan to settle a new land... New Guinea. They begin taking stolen ships over across over to the island. Due to the lackluster Dutch presence on the island, they would begin settling and making prominent settlements. To ensure peace, they would likely cut a deal over with the Dutch. After all, the island didn't have much value to the Dutch at the time and thus the settlement would over on the top half primarily. This would cut off the Germans from trying to go and lay a claim on part of the island and before long, the British would get involved.
The Hong Dynasty cuts a deal over with the British to get some further stability and focus on growing themselves over in the region. Perhaps if they are lucky, they may be able to claim the whole island for themselves. British and Dutch are happy to try and get some resources from it and letting the Hong Dynasty serve as the middle-man. Over time, the Chinese refugees begin mixing in with more and more of the Papuan indigenous peoples. As the faith tries to stabilize, it takes in more and more of influnces, such as in becoming a state church like Anglicanisn. Born on a combination of Protestantism, some bits of Anglicanism, Chinese Confucianism and Papuan folk religion, this would be the foundation over for the Heavenly Kingdom. They'd likely be isolationist to a degree, focusing on settling and building up on the island along with remaining together as a whole nation, using faith and their hostile surrounding to remain together and not splinter, though they will federalize and delegate power.
They remain pretty closed off during World War 1, focusing mainly on gradually modernizing over time bit by bit and gradually their own cohesive identity. Hong Xuanjiao's legacy begins settling in such as her commanding and trainng of female warriors, which would play an influence over on the island as the cultures mix and Chinese becomes the unifying language on the island, though influence by the language. The Heavenly Kingdom Church also becomes stabilizing more, with Hong Xiuquan getting some sort of sainthood or holy reverence along with the various other heroes and the like, including Xuanjiao.
However, they would become likely involved over in World War 2 as the Japanese attempt their invasion of the Dutch Indies. The Dutch call upon them for aid and they do so though with the promise of Dutch and British assistance in modernizing. Despite them lagging behind, their numbers and training in reinforcing the the forces earn them some victories and they play a part over in the Pacific theater. All while reaping the benefits of assistance and investment from the Allies. By the end, they are beginning to grow more and more with outside investment and modern political movements. Perhaps the island becomes a spot for Chinese refugees while Christian democracy becomes a dominant force on the island in terms of culture and development. Despite this, they still focus a fair it over on self-reliance and growing. Likely undergoing some social movements regarding the indigenous peoples there and the like. The nation would survive the Cold War and into the new millenuim, known for its weird history and background along with rising issues such as environmentalism.
The Sacred Republic of Papua is now a federal parliamentary republic as the legacy of Hong Xiuquan becomes cultural and the state church with a prominent influence. Major politicla parties would be Christian democracy, social democracy and maybe a Christian socialist one given the protocommunist ideals of the Taiping Rebellion. Regarding Social Progress Index, GDP and HDI, I would say that at worst, they're just above Malaysia and at best... just below Chile or Argentina.
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What about the idea of Franks, Frisians, or Danes settling in Britain, instead of Angles and Saxons?
My idea for alt-migration is when Western Roman Empire survived through integrating Germanic tribes but didn’t survive its waves of and Slavic migrations that Slavs have pushed further westwards into Rhine or Seine river.
My idea for alt-migration is when Western Roman Empire survived through integrating Germanic tribes but didn’t survive its waves of and Slavic migrations that Slavs have pushed further westwards into Rhine or Seine river.
Might be bad taste to call it "migration", but given the bevy of African peoples on one end and the number of even IOTL colonial powers, there's a lot of different permutations of Maroon peoples and creole Afro-diasporic peoples that could have come into being both in the Western Hemisphere and uninhabited islands off the African Atlantic and Indian Ocean coasts.
Another migration whatif that intrigues me is if Portugal got boxed into North America only (as opposed to the Portugal Não É Um Imperio Pequeno wanks where they colonize everywhere.)
The country was a settler spigot for 5 centuries, and acts as a source of migratory labor in Europe well into a sixth. The amount of settlers plus the time plus the more favorable conditions for population above replacement -- and all under a much different colonial social system than the OTL British models -- makes for very different dynamics in the Americas and elsewhere.
On the ancient end, if I ever get my shit together for Kaiserdammerung, some (but nowhere near all of the) ideas I had included Alan Britain, different results of Balto-Slavic internal and then external migrations, both Romes getting wrecked with a remnant in Carthage, and a Hunnic Jewish Mesopotamian kingdom (that eventually gets conquered by Arab Jews.)
Another migration whatif that intrigues me is if Portugal got boxed into North America only (as opposed to the Portugal Não É Um Imperio Pequeno wanks where they colonize everywhere.)
The country was a settler spigot for 5 centuries, and acts as a source of migratory labor in Europe well into a sixth. The amount of settlers plus the time plus the more favorable conditions for population above replacement -- and all under a much different colonial social system than the OTL British models -- makes for very different dynamics in the Americas and elsewhere.
On the ancient end, if I ever get my shit together for Kaiserdammerung, some (but nowhere near all of the) ideas I had included Alan Britain, different results of Balto-Slavic internal and then external migrations, both Romes getting wrecked with a remnant in Carthage, and a Hunnic Jewish Mesopotamian kingdom (that eventually gets conquered by Arab Jews.)
Pretty much described Coronation of the Hun
Atila becomes Emperor, destroy the germanic people except for the franks who settle in Britain creating "France" there as a island while the Empire itself eventually falls to the invading slavic tribes
I've always liked the Huns smashing Western Europe, sacking Rome, surviving for at least a few centuries, and expanding to rule much of northern Germany/low Countries. There, East Germanic tribes settle the bulk of this region and become its dominant people, perhaps outside of marshy land in the Low Countries/Frisia and the Alps.
I've written a few times about Athabaskan-speaking group heading east and moving into the void left by the decline of Cahokia. It would essentially be akin to the Navajo moving into the void left by Mesa Verde in the Southwest, where the Athabaskans would incorporate remaining locals into their tribe as well as some of their customs (in this case mound building, maize ceremonies, and probably fire worship) yet it would remain distinctly Athabaskan, especially linguistically. Maybe have the Kiowa Apache break away earlier from the other Apache (this was possibly the 14th century judging by linguistics, so maybe a century earlier) and instead of their close alliance with the Kiowa (or becoming some of the obscure peoples mentioned by Spanish in the 16th century), they head east to the Misssouri-Ohio region instead. The declining environment would not be able to recreate Cahokia in its might and would be perceived as foreigners by surrounding peoples, but they still could be a powerful local force before tribes with firearms and European tools invade from the east (and at that point maybe they'd transition to being a strong Plains Indian group).
I've written a few times about Athabaskan-speaking group heading east and moving into the void left by the decline of Cahokia. It would essentially be akin to the Navajo moving into the void left by Mesa Verde in the Southwest, where the Athabaskans would incorporate remaining locals into their tribe as well as some of their customs (in this case mound building, maize ceremonies, and probably fire worship) yet it would remain distinctly Athabaskan, especially linguistically. Maybe have the Kiowa Apache break away earlier from the other Apache (this was possibly the 14th century judging by linguistics, so maybe a century earlier) and instead of their close alliance with the Kiowa (or becoming some of the obscure peoples mentioned by Spanish in the 16th century), they head east to the Misssouri-Ohio region instead. The declining environment would not be able to recreate Cahokia in its might and would be perceived as foreigners by surrounding peoples, but they still could be a powerful local force before tribes with firearms and European tools invade from the east (and at that point maybe they'd transition to being a strong Plains Indian group).
Isn't this just OTL with the Huns and their ancestors? Although the Yeniseians were too small in number to make much of a demographic or linguistic impact in the places they settled. Although yes, the Kamchatkan-speaking groups were not reindeer pastoralists, but that's probably because "Chukotko-Kamchatkan" seems very dubious linguistically IMO (and is solely a linguistic relationship, not related to physical, cultural, or archaeological anthropology). The Itelmen seemed to have had a weird mix of cultural conservatism (archaeologically their culture was fairly "stable" for 2-3 thousands years IIRC) and readily adapting customs from other people (namely the Ainu and Koryaks). I think they'd need to adopt the sort of "dual" society found among the Chukchi/Koryaks where there'd be a sea (or river) tribe relying on fishing and a land tribe relying on reindeer pastoralism, but each tribe would still consider themselves more or less the same society. Maybe if it were long enough ago, they'd be the ones pushing south into the Kurils instead of the Ainu pushing north.