WW1 TL Help: What to do if you can't get nitrates

Every time a WW1 thread comes up, and someone is talking about how a war would go, John Q. Smith pops up and tells you that if you aren't on Great Britain's side, or not Germany post-1914, you will lose because you can't import nitrates from Chile. Nitrates are important in this time frame because that's what you make explosives out of. Your postulated thread or time line withers and dies because no one is really interested in talking about your war's sad and pathetic end, when the alt-land-based power gets choked to death by the RN's stranglehold on the import of nitrates. Even if you try to say "Haber's process gets developed in Country X", you get shot down by people saying (correctly) that your country doesn't have the chemical industry required to happen upon the Haber process.

This has gotten a bit tiresome for me, too, so after a bit of research, I've decided to help you out. Just credit me if you want to use the idea in a time line. :cool: My source is Industrial Nitrogen Compounds and Explosives: A Practical Treatise on the Manufacture, Properties, and Industrial Uses of Nitric Acid, Nitrates, Nitrites, Ammonia, Ammonium Salts, Cyanides, Cyanamide, Etc. Etc., Including the Most Recent Explosives, Martin and Barbour, 1915.

* * * * * * * * * *

So you need nitrates. In OTL, these were recovered by digging down a couple meters into the Atacama Desert in northern Chile. Chile and Peru combined to export 90% of the nitrates at this time, and unless you're in South America, you need ships to bring these goodies to your country. The problem you face is that the big nasty Royal Navy is in your way, and they are likely to cut off all of those nitrates at the outbreak of war. While nitrates aren't really hard to mine, no one has any alternative mining operation available, nor can one be started to produce enough nitrates while a war is going on because you don't have enough nitrate resources in your country, and you need a lot.

1912 Production Figures:
Total Ore Exported: 2.54 million tons
United Kingdom: 5.6% of total
Germany: 33.3% of total
France: 14.3% of total
Belgium: 12.2% of total
Netherlands: 5.9% of total
Italy: 2% of total
Austria-Hungary: 0.5% of total
United States: 22.2% of total

Taking the US as our example, that is a requirement for 564,000 tons of nitrates...good luck coming up with that in the traditional UK vs. US AH war.

So how do you make up the shortfall?

Traditionally, you make nitric acid (the stuff that's most widely used in explosives, but also in a boggling number of other chemical processes) by using a process requiring sulphuric acid and Chilean saltpeter. Of course, you can't do that now. The other usually-discussed way is via the Haber process, which uses the catalytic oxidation of ammonia. If you don't have a buzzing chemical industry, you're not likely to stumble upon that.

My research, however, has led me upon a third way to do it with that era's technology: you can simply electrically oxidize the atmosphere. When air is strongly heated, atmospheric oxygen and nitrogen directly unite to form nitric oxide. This is accomplished by means of an electric arc. There are three main specific processes used to do this, but as you probably aren't interested in the nitty-gritty details, I'll skip over them in favor of national production figures, though you are welcome to PM me for exact details.

This method was first solved in commercially successful form in 1903, and first utilized in 1907 by a British company operating in Norway. Interestingly enough, German companies were quite interested in this and built their own plant in Norway, only selling it once the Haber process was perfected. My reference states that the process is very power-intensive, and for some reason it only looks like you can use hydroelectric power to do this process efficiently, though I can't ascertain the reason.

The writers conflict on how much electricity is required, however, so I will do calculations for both cases. They state that if the entire hydroelectric capacity of Europe were to be used for the production of nitrates, 50 million tons could be produced per year. Since the total hydroelectric capacity of Europe is given as between 5.05 and 6.05 million horsepower per year, this means that 1 hp per year would yield (in worst case scenario) 8.2 tons of nitrate per year. The US would require a paltry 70,000 horsepower to produce its entire nitrate requirement. Niagara Falls was producing 50,000 horsepower in 1895, and over 100,000 by 1905. This case makes this process look ridiculously easy: have your nation's government install a couple medium-sized dams, and send your boys to the trenches with all the explosives they need.

On the other hand, the writers also state that it requires 1 hp per year to produce 1 ton of nitrate per year, which is really confusing when compared to the numbers I just showed you; that means you need 8x as much hydroelectric power as you required in Case A for Case B. Your barely-noticeable government operation has now become a national plan that requires a bit of foresight, but it can still be used given a couple years of lead time. The United States, in this instance, now requires nearly 600,000 horsepower from its hydroelectric plants per year. That's quite a bit, but not too difficult, at least with some planning before a war. Construction of Niagara Falls' new power plant was slowed by the onset of WW1, but if a project of such national importance was needed in case of likely war, it could be accomplished with enough national will. Once the Falls got their new, additional power plants running, they produced 450,000 horsepower. If America's farmers go without quite as much fertilizer, the US can now be self-sufficient just using Niagara, though of course it would make more sense to use and build a good number of smaller hydroelectric plants elsewhere.

* * *

Hopefully this will be of use to someone. As I said before, feel free to use this in a time line, just credit me if possible. For flavor, and to make your time line sound a bit more top-notch, the three different sub-methods were the Birkeland-Eyde Furnace, the Pauling Furnace, and the Schonherr Furnace.

Thanks for tuning in! :)
 
Douglas,

Where to begin... sigh...

This "third" process you "discovered" is occasionally mentioned in the threads you referred to. Someone brings up the nitrates issue, someone brings up the technological demands of the Haber Process, someone casts about for alternatives, someone "discovers" the electro-arc method, and the Usual Claims by the Usual Suspects get made about the problem being solved.

Nothing could be further from the truth however.

Begin by asking yourself this, if the electro-arc process was available, why didn't nitrate importers begin building plants once it was developed? And, if the electro-arc process was available, why did German industrialists sell their holdings in the Norwegian plant once the Haber Process was shown to work? The answer to the first is obvious; imported nitrates were still far cheaper than those manufactured by the electro-arc process. The answer to the second, however, isn't as obvious to people living in our post-industrial world.

Let's examine the industrial issues surrounding the process. The only requirement for the electro-arc process is large amounts of electricity and that is a fairly trivial one even in the 1910s, right? Wrong. We're talking about the first decades of the 20th Century and not even the 1930s and 40s. Long distance transmission of large amounts of electricity is not commonplace and presents several technological demands of it's own. Electricity was consumed rather close to where it was produced, so that nitrate plant in Norway was in Norway because it had to be near the dam producing the electricity it used.

The amount of electricity required and the cost to produce it become factors next. The electro-arc method needed electricity in amounts that seems trivial to you in 2010 but were huge in 1910. If producing that electricity in those amounts requires feeding coal or oil to boilers to drive turbine generators, instead of "simply" using "stored rain water" to drive turbine generators, the cost of producing nitrates has been increased by an order of magnitude at the very least.

So, a nation building the electro-arc plants isn't going to be able to plug them into a "national grid" in order to feed those plants electricity they require from a myriad of distant sources and won't be able to produce the electricity required cheaply enough to make the process economical. Let's look at that "economical" statement from another angle because it's the other problem the Usual Suspects overlook in their rush for a solution.

None of the powers in WW1 truly planned for a war. Sure, there were lots of military plans directing divisions, battleships, trains, and whatnot hither and yon, but none of the powers planned for a nationwide industrial effort over even a short period of time. No one took any real care regarding ammunition stocks, for example, and men were called up, conscripted, or allowed to volunteer with no regard for their civilian occupations so by 1915 the warring powers each had to comb through the ranks of their military forces to find the miners, steel workers, ship builders, and other trades this industrial war required.

This means that for any of the powers to have an electro-arc nitrate plant in operation, the power in question before the war would have had to, and unlike every other power, planned on a long war that involves a blockade in order to subsidize the construction and operation of the facilities necessary.

No corporation was going to fund and operate an electro-arc facility on purely a business basis as the nitrates produced were too costly compared to natural sources. A relatively small R&D effort is one thing, an effort able to meet even a fraction a nation's nitrate demands is something else entirely.

So, here are the realities upon which this idea always founders:
  • The industrial and other requirements an electro-arc, or even Haber, plant requires are not trivial during the period.
  • Such plants have no peacetime economic rationale and thus must be government subsidized if they are to built during peacetime.
  • Subsidies mean that the governments in question will have to realize the necessity of such plants for fighting a widespread, long term, industrial war despite their utter failure to realize that a widespread, long term, industrial war was in the offing and their utter failure to prepare for such a war in fairly trivial matters; i.e. losing critical skills by conscription.

Reality is a messy affair and is not as orderly as a computer game. Industries do not spring from the Earth at a wave of the hand once the technologies that allow them are developed, people of one era cannot benefit from the hindsight of their descendants, everything takes time, everything takes money, and everything must have a reason even if that reason may be irrational in either the short or long term.


Bill
 
And if the Germans were planning ahead in that way, could they not simply have bought a ten years supply of nitrates in the years before 1914? It would have aroused suspicion about their intentions, but then such suspicion existed anyway, and short of going to war there would seem to be little anyone else could do about it.
 
The other issue is that if a country actual realises that it won't "be over by Christmas", and what industrial war would entail, they wouldn't fight it in the first place. All sides planning was based around swift victories as they realised that long term war would destroy their economies and unleash uncontrollable stresses in their socieites.

They were all right.
 

altamiro

Banned
And if the Germans were planning ahead in that way, could they not simply have bought a ten years supply of nitrates in the years before 1914? It would have aroused suspicion about their intentions, but then such suspicion existed anyway, and short of going to war there would seem to be little anyone else could do about it.

During the invasion of Belgium there was a race for Antwerpen where an enormous storage of saltpeter was located - enough for half a year of German war effort.
 
During the invasion of Belgium there was a race for Antwerpen where an enormous storage of saltpeter was located - enough for half a year of German war effort.


Altamiro,

Yes, there was a race, just as there was a race for gold reserves and other materials. There wasn't a race however because Germany suddenly realized the war would last over 4 years and the British blockade would eventually prevent nitrate imports.

It would have been a trivial effort for Germany to have purchased and stored even more nitrates than were captured at Antwerp as part of a strategic stockpile in the years before the war. No additional war scares would have been needed, no deeper appreciation that Britain would almost certainly be on the side of the Entente, and definitely no planning to provoke a general war by a certain date. All that would be required was a decision to be slightly more prepared and/or a willingness to listen to the many thoughtful observers who, like Kitchener, predicted a long and grueling war.

Instead, as Alratan points out, all the powers deluded themselves in the years leading up to the war and those delusions not only allowed the war to happen, but made it a much more horrific war in the bargain.


Bill
 

Thande

Donor
Very interesting stuff. I knew intellectually about the electro-arc method vis-a-vis producing nitric oxide, I hadn't connected it with the possibility of being an alternative to the Haber Process.

However as Bill says there are serious issues with this becoming an industrial production method rather than just a curiosity.

[*] Such plants have no peacetime economic rationale and thus must be government subsidized if they are to built during peacetime.

This is admittedly tenuous and handwave-y, but: nitrates are obviously also used in peacetime as fertiliser. The problem is that importing them from Chile is enormously cheaper than producing them yourself by this method or the Haber process. But what if the country in question was unable to trade with Chile for other reasons, such as diplomatic relations being in the freezer, and was forced to develop an alternative?

Of course in the real world the problem is that it would still be easier for the country just to buy nitrates from another country which could trade with Chile...
 
Douglas,

Where to begin... sigh...

The condescension begins...
This "third" process you "discovered" is occasionally mentioned in the threads you referred to. Someone brings up the nitrates issue, someone brings up the technological demands of the Haber Process, someone casts about for alternatives, someone "discovers" the electro-arc method, and the Usual Claims by the Usual Suspects get made about the problem being solved.

For all of your typical snide commentary, however, you seem to have a very faulty memory, as this thread is the only one in which "electro-arc" or "electric arc" appears, using the search function. You've also used those terms exactly once, in this thread, so your long-winded pomposity is completely devoid of fact.

Nothing could be further from the truth however.

Enlighten me. :rolleyes:

Begin by asking yourself this, if the electro-arc process was available, why didn't nitrate importers begin building plants once it was developed? And, if the electro-arc process was available, why did German industrialists sell their holdings in the Norwegian plant once the Haber Process was shown to work? The answer to the first is obvious; imported nitrates were still far cheaper than those manufactured by the electro-arc process.

Why are you saying this? It was probably more expensive, but of course, if it was so much more expensive, how the hell did the Norwegians keep those power plants in operation for nearly a decade prior to the war? Obviously it wasn't too expensive to turn a profit, so unless you have some data, we can safely throw this irrelevance out.
The answer to the second, however, isn't as obvious to people living in our post-industrial world.

Oh goodie.

Let's examine the industrial issues surrounding the process. The only requirement for the electro-arc process is large amounts of electricity and that is a fairly trivial one even in the 1910s, right? Wrong. We're talking about the first decades of the 20th Century and not even the 1930s and 40s. Long distance transmission of large amounts of electricity is not commonplace and presents several technological demands of it's own. Electricity was consumed rather close to where it was produced, so that nitrate plant in Norway was in Norway because it had to be near the dam producing the electricity it used.

I have no idea why you brought this up; I never said that you could just pump in electricity from wherever the hell you wanted to do it. I stated that the nitrate plants were right next to hydroelectric power.

The amount of electricity required and the cost to produce it become factors next. The electro-arc method needed electricity in amounts that seems trivial to you in 2010 but were huge in 1910. If producing that electricity in those amounts requires feeding coal or oil to boilers to drive turbine generators, instead of "simply" using "stored rain water" to drive turbine generators, the cost of producing nitrates has been increased by an order of magnitude at the very least.

Yes, but if you don't go onto this weird tangent which I certainly never mentioned, than you build your nitrate plant right next to the power plant.

So, a nation building the electro-arc plants isn't going to be able to plug them into a "national grid" in order to feed those plants electricity they require from a myriad of distant sources and won't be able to produce the electricity required cheaply enough to make the process economical. Let's look at that "economical" statement from another angle because it's the other problem the Usual Suspects overlook in their rush for a solution.

You are arguing with someone who never made any of the statements you are attributing to him. Maybe I should have clarified: YOU PARK THE NITRATE PLANT NEXT TO THE POWER PLANT, which is really difficult apparently. :rolleyes:

None of the powers in WW1 truly planned for a war. Sure, there were lots of military plans directing divisions, battleships, trains, and whatnot hither and yon, but none of the powers planned for a nationwide industrial effort over even a short period of time. No one took any real care regarding ammunition stocks, for example, and men were called up, conscripted, or allowed to volunteer with no regard for their civilian occupations so by 1915 the warring powers each had to comb through the ranks of their military forces to find the miners, steel workers, ship builders, and other trades this industrial war required.

This means that for any of the powers to have an electro-arc nitrate plant in operation, the power in question before the war would have had to, and unlike every other power, planned on a long war that involves a blockade in order to subsidize the construction and operation of the facilities necessary.

I would previously have agreed, but the existence of the Norwegian plants from whence much of France's nitric acid came and the fact that they stayed in business seems to indicate that it could be profitable. Germany didn't build any in Germany probably because 1. It had little hydroelectric capacity of its own, and 2. It developed the Haber process.
No corporation was going to fund and operate an electro-arc facility on purely a business basis as the nitrates produced were too costly compared to natural sources. A relatively small R&D effort is one thing, an effort able to meet even a fraction a nation's nitrate demands is something else entirely
.

Except they did. They were making 200,000 tons in 1914, or about 8% of all nitrates manufactured worldwide.
So, here are the realities upon which this idea always founders:
  • The industrial and other requirements an electro-arc, or even Haber, plant requires are not trivial during the period.
  • Such plants have no peacetime economic rationale and thus must be government subsidized if they are to built during peacetime.
  • Subsidies mean that the governments in question will have to realize the necessity of such plants for fighting a widespread, long term, industrial war despite their utter failure to realize that a widespread, long term, industrial war was in the offing and their utter failure to prepare for such a war in fairly trivial matters; i.e. losing critical skills by conscription.

So by the time we deconstruct your post, created with a curious combination of sneering mockery and casual contempt for what I actually said, as opposed to what you wanted me to have said, we find that you are 0/3 on your points, though perhaps the long-term war might merit you a 0.5, as that could be a reason why full needs aren't met by the process at the opening of war. That's still a failing grade.
 
For all of your typical snide commentary, however, you seem to have a very faulty memory, as this thread is the only one in which "electro-arc" or "electric arc" appears, using the search function.


Douglas,

That could very well be true, but the process you originally wrote about is known by other names.

Behold the Power of the Search Function:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=2990851&postcount=21

You'll be interested to notice that the process you've been talking about is discussed in that thread and the objections I raised then are the same as I've raised now.

You've also used those terms exactly once, in this thread, so your long-winded pomposity is completely devoid of fact.

I used the term you used in your first post to avoid confusion. If I had written "Birkeland-Eyde process", you and many others would have asked "WTF?" and you'd be complaining about that instead.

...how the hell did the Norwegians keep those power plants in operation for nearly a decade prior to the war?

They kept them "operating" in the same manner you keep any hydro-electric plant operating; by praying for rain. Once the dam was built and generators installed, the only operating cost is derived from maintenance. That's also why the Norwegians were able to expend scads of energy to create minute amounts of heavy water; the electricity they were using was essentially free.

Obviously it wasn't too expensive to turn a profit, so unless you have some data, we can safely throw this irrelevance out.

Seeing as the electricity was essentially free, the books don't balance in the manner you want to believe they do.

I have no idea why you brought this up; I never said that you could just pump in electricity from wherever the hell you wanted to do it. I stated that the nitrate plants were right next to hydroelectric power.

I brought up transmission issues because hydroelectric sites are few and far between. You just can't dam rivers willy-nilly to create the "free" electrical sources you need for the Birkeland-Eyde process to be economically feasible. You also cannot build penny-packet Birkeland-Eyde process plants next door to scattered power plants because you'll be throwing away any hopes for economies of scale.

Instead, you either need to build - and fuel - a series of huge power plants specifically devoted to powering the Birkeland-Eyde process plants, a rather daunting and costly industrial and economic project, or you need to transmit power from the previously built, but widely scattered, plants already powering your nation.

Yes, but if you don't go onto this weird tangent which I certainly never mentioned, than you build your nitrate plant right next to the power plant.

Not weird, rather realistic. Electrical power is the key here. The process requires a great deal of it, so the problem of providing enough cheap electricity is the central to the entire problem.

You are arguing with someone who never made any of the statements you are attributing to him. Maybe I should have clarified: YOU PARK THE NITRATE PLANT NEXT TO THE POWER PLANT, which is really difficult apparently. :rolleyes:

Actually it is rather difficult seeing as you can't simply build hydroelectric sites wherever you need them. You cannot build your penny-packet Birkeland-Eyde process plants next to existing plants either and keep any hopes of maintaining any economy of scale.

I would previously have agreed, but the existence of the Norwegian plants from whence much of France's nitric acid came and the fact that they stayed in business seems to indicate that it could be profitable.

And I've explained why they were profitable: Free electricity.

Germany didn't build any in Germany probably because 1. It had little hydroelectric capacity of its own, and 2. It developed the Haber process.

Precisely. Germany doesn't have enough viable hydro sites, so suggesting that the CP could somehow avoid the nitrate crisis prior to the development of the Haber Process by a wide scale adoption of the Birkeland-Eyde process is a non-starter.
.
Except they did. They were making 200,000 tons in 1914, or about 8% of all nitrates manufactured worldwide.

Eight percent of the nitrates manufactured worldwide in peacetime and with free electricity. Want to guess how much more a nation at war will require given it's needs to manufacture explosives and it's inability to import food?

So by the time we deconstruct your post...

Rather than deconstruct my post, why don't you try to understand it instead?

That's still a failing grade.

Sorry, but no. My points still stand and your incomprehension of what my points actually are do not effect that one whit.

Please go to the thread I linked you to and read all about how the idea you posted here will not work.

As I wrote in that thread and as I've pointed out in this thread:

There's another problem with Germany adopting the Birkeland-Eyde process wholesale before 1914; it means Germany would somehow be prescient.


Bill
 
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This is admittedly tenuous and handwave-y...


Thande,

Not in the slightest.

Let me quote a sentence from my own post, and a sentence you yourself quoted, with an added emphasis:

Such plants have no peacetime economic rationale and thus must be government subsidized if they are to built during peacetime.

As we both note, "nitrates are obviously also used in peacetime as fertiliser" and we both note, "importing them from Chile is enormously cheaper than producing them yourself by this method or the Haber process".

The Norwegian facilities were economically feasible because they used "free" electricity. Facilities not "plugged into" a hydroelectric plant will not have that benefit.

But what if the country in question was unable to trade with Chile for other reasons, such as diplomatic relations being in the freezer, and was forced to develop an alternative?

Prior to WW1 I think the prospect of a nation like Chile telling Germany or Austria-Hungary that they cannot buy nitrates to be essentially nil. Gunboat diplomacy is still the rule and there is nothing resembling an "Organization of Nitrate Exporting Countries". I also think the chances of another Great Power backing up Chile's nitrate sales ban to be essentially nil too.

Of course in the real world the problem is that it would still be easier for the country just to buy nitrates from another country which could trade with Chile...

True. If those two nils somehow become a reality, the Central Powers could import nitrates via third parties for far less cost than subsidizing the operation of enough Birkeland-Eyde process plants to meet their domestic peacetime needs.


Bill
 
Bill, you seem to be missing my point.

I am saying that if your country can build several large hydroelectric plants for nitrate production, you can make a significant amount of nitrates. I don't know why you keep talking about using other kinds of fuel, because I have never mentioned that and I don't want to talk about that. Germany isn't really my number one concern here, the United States war, but the same thing holds true. If you can build a hydroelectric plant, and I never said "willy-nilly" or "anywhere you want", but rather in a justifiable, sensible location, you can create nitrates. That is quite possible in the time frame, with an early enough POD. You need John Q. Financier to get the idea that a hydroelectric plant would be a good idea. Of course, the reason why the Norwegians could do it is because it's "free" once the plant is installed...yeah, that's my point. Once the plant is installed, you can make nitrates.

I don't see how you can so blindly ignore the point that I don't care about non-hydroelectric power; the entire point of my post is that you do need someone to build a hydroelectric plant. I never said it was super-cheap, I never said it was technologically easy, I never said you could do it wherever the hell you wanted. You're arguing against positions I've never held.

If you want to say, "Germany has no decent locations for hydroelectric power", that's one thing, and I'd need to do some research to see if that were true. But to say that what I'm discussing isn't feasible for all countries because one country couldn't do it in OTL is completely missing the point.
 
you seem to be missing my point.


Douglas,

We seem to be missing each others' points.

I am saying that if your country can build several large hydroelectric plants for nitrate production, you can make a significant amount of nitrates.

You said: "if you aren't on Great Britain's side, or not Germany post-1914, you will lose because you can't import nitrates from Chile."

I then assumed, a shocking habit, that you were talking about Germany and the Central Powers because A) they weren't on Britain's side and B) they needed to import nitrates prior to 1915.

Germany isn't really my number one concern here, the United States war, but the same thing holds true.

Okay, why are you suggesting the US build and operate these plants when the US can import nitrates from Chile? Is this going to be part of a "US Joins the CP" time line?

If you can build a hydroelectric plant, and I never said "willy-nilly" or "anywhere you want", but rather in a justifiable, sensible location, you can create nitrates.

Yes, you can. You can also import nitrates far more cheaply if you have the foreign trade and/or reserves, something the new nation of Norway didn't have and another reason why it employed the Birkeland-Eyde process essentially for free.

I don't see how you can so blindly ignore the point that I don't care about non-hydroelectric power...

I do because, unlike you, I'm explaining why your idea was never used in actual history.

The process was there, the abilities were there, the demands were there, but what you're suggesting never occurred due to sound economic reasons. Unless you can change the underlying economics of the situation - and you've made no attempts to do that - your idea is a non-starter.

Change the underlying situation and your idea works. Understand?

If you want to say, "Germany has no decent locations for hydroelectric power", that's one thing, and I'd need to do some research to see if that were true.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying Germany's various hydroelectric power locations are A) already built and have their power used elsewhere or B) cannot be built for various technological, economic, or transportation related reasons. At the time period in question, Germany already has all the hydro plants she needs and building another just to produce something she can freely import at a cheaper price never entered the picture.

But to say that what I'm discussing isn't feasible for all countries because one country couldn't do it in OTL is completely missing the point.

That sentence only illustrates how you are missing the point.

NO countries in the world did what you're suggesting with the exception of Norway. As I've already explained, The process was there, the abilities were there, the demands were there, but what you're suggesting never occurred due to sound economic reasons. You need to change the underlying economic situation in order for the process to be employed.

These people weren't stupid and they had very good reasons for not doing doing certain things.

So, why would the US dedicate the output of the Niagara Falls plants to the production of nitrates? What events would make business or government in the US even contemplate building such an industrial complex? What has changed in the economic picture? In the political picture?


Bill
 
Why did Norway produce 8% of the world's nitrates "for free" using hydroelectric power? Norway did not need one-tenth of that amount of nitrates, so obviously it sold them abroad. Nitrates do not just fall from the sky when the electric arc method is used, so they obviously installed the necessary equipment to produce them. Since they didn't need 200,000 tons of nitrates, where did all of those nitrates go, besides Norway? There must have been demand for them, and they must not have been that expensive, otherwise the British- and German-owned companies (they weren't Norwegian) would have spent a great deal of money to make big piles of nitrates that nobody wanted to buy, and promptly gone out of business.

This implies that it isn't inconceivable for any company with access to hydroelectric power or with the capital to build a hydroelectric power plant to decide that they want to "get in on" the nitrates market. It didn't happen in OTL, and while I never said that the people of that era were stupid, it doesn't take a lot of imagination to suggest that there are possible successful investments that have not been undertaken for a variety of different reasons unrelated to the feasibility of the project. For instance, from 1918-1924 a German company built a hydroelectric dam in Bavaria that produced a good amount of electricity; in an ATL, it is possible that a company can decide to build it ten years earlier in order to produce nitrates? Is Amerigo's Rampart Dam impossible because it was never done in OTL?

Now, admittedly, this only extends into the sphere of hydroelectric power. Burning coal or oil or some other strategic material would probably make this completely implausible and far too expensive. Is there anything I've said in this post that isn't a correct assumption? If your disagreement is "no one would have found it economical", I'll have to politely disagree and move on.
 
Change the underlying situation and your idea works. Understand?
This change in the underlying situation has been assumed in Douglas's very first post in this thread. We are concerned with alternate history here. Understand?




So, why would the US dedicate the output of the Niagara Falls plants to the production of nitrates? What events would make business or government in the US even contemplate building such an industrial complex? What has changed in the economic picture? In the political picture?
What has changed is that the US is facing or contemplating a war with the United Kingdom. As Douglas mentioned in his first post.
 
What has changed is that the US facing or contemplating a war with the United Kingdom. As Douglas mentioned in his first post.

Well, that's what I intended to do with it, but I suspect it could be used by several different powers.
 
Bill,


Starting out your arguments with a condescending and arrogant tone lend no credence to your position. If you want people to take you seriously, then try to avoid sounding like a jerk.

That being said, douglas does have a point on certain issues, the technology does exist at the time to synthesize nitrates using the electric arc process. And even with the cost advantage of importing them, I could see a TL where a nation is blockaded and suffers a shortage of nitrates sometime before and so decides to plan ahead. The power requirements can be met and maintained due to the obvious peacetime uses of electricity, the production facilities are another problem. Now I'm sure someone could find a use for facilities which use similar equipment and then retool those facilities when the need arises. Much like detroit during WWII, there wasn't much peacetime use for tank factories, but car factories can be retooled to produce tanks.

So in essence the only obstacle here is the peacetime use of such factories which is not limited simply to nitrate production, but other products as well. As has been said, it is only cheap to produce nitrates that way when the factories are right next to a hydro-electric power source. Why can't a country with access to enough hydro-electric power build nitrate producing factories next to the power sources?

Also, sound economic reasons do not fully encompass human decisions in the past, if such was the case the south would have abolished slavery on its own and there would be no ACW.

Like has been said, we are talking about an ATL, with no defined POD, not OTL.
 

The Vulture

Banned
I'm afraid I don't really have anything to add, but I'd like to thank Douglas, Bill, and Thande. This is good useful information I can incorporate into TEC.
 

Blair152

Banned
Every time a WW1 thread comes up, and someone is talking about how a war would go, John Q. Smith pops up and tells you that if you aren't on Great Britain's side, or not Germany post-1914, you will lose because you can't import nitrates from Chile. Nitrates are important in this time frame because that's what you make explosives out of. Your postulated thread or time line withers and dies because no one is really interested in talking about your war's sad and pathetic end, when the alt-land-based power gets choked to death by the RN's stranglehold on the import of nitrates. Even if you try to say "Haber's process gets developed in Country X", you get shot down by people saying (correctly) that your country doesn't have the chemical industry required to happen upon the Haber process.

This has gotten a bit tiresome for me, too, so after a bit of research, I've decided to help you out. Just credit me if you want to use the idea in a time line. :cool: My source is Industrial Nitrogen Compounds and Explosives: A Practical Treatise on the Manufacture, Properties, and Industrial Uses of Nitric Acid, Nitrates, Nitrites, Ammonia, Ammonium Salts, Cyanides, Cyanamide, Etc. Etc., Including the Most Recent Explosives, Martin and Barbour, 1915.

* * * * * * * * * *

So you need nitrates. In OTL, these were recovered by digging down a couple meters into the Atacama Desert in northern Chile. Chile and Peru combined to export 90% of the nitrates at this time, and unless you're in South America, you need ships to bring these goodies to your country. The problem you face is that the big nasty Royal Navy is in your way, and they are likely to cut off all of those nitrates at the outbreak of war. While nitrates aren't really hard to mine, no one has any alternative mining operation available, nor can one be started to produce enough nitrates while a war is going on because you don't have enough nitrate resources in your country, and you need a lot.

1912 Production Figures:
Total Ore Exported: 2.54 million tons
United Kingdom: 5.6% of total
Germany: 33.3% of total
France: 14.3% of total
Belgium: 12.2% of total
Netherlands: 5.9% of total
Italy: 2% of total
Austria-Hungary: 0.5% of total
United States: 22.2% of total

Taking the US as our example, that is a requirement for 564,000 tons of nitrates...good luck coming up with that in the traditional UK vs. US AH war.

So how do you make up the shortfall?

Traditionally, you make nitric acid (the stuff that's most widely used in explosives, but also in a boggling number of other chemical processes) by using a process requiring sulphuric acid and Chilean saltpeter. Of course, you can't do that now. The other usually-discussed way is via the Haber process, which uses the catalytic oxidation of ammonia. If you don't have a buzzing chemical industry, you're not likely to stumble upon that.

My research, however, has led me upon a third way to do it with that era's technology: you can simply electrically oxidize the atmosphere. When air is strongly heated, atmospheric oxygen and nitrogen directly unite to form nitric oxide. This is accomplished by means of an electric arc. There are three main specific processes used to do this, but as you probably aren't interested in the nitty-gritty details, I'll skip over them in favor of national production figures, though you are welcome to PM me for exact details.

This method was first solved in commercially successful form in 1903, and first utilized in 1907 by a British company operating in Norway. Interestingly enough, German companies were quite interested in this and built their own plant in Norway, only selling it once the Haber process was perfected. My reference states that the process is very power-intensive, and for some reason it only looks like you can use hydroelectric power to do this process efficiently, though I can't ascertain the reason.

The writers conflict on how much electricity is required, however, so I will do calculations for both cases. They state that if the entire hydroelectric capacity of Europe were to be used for the production of nitrates, 50 million tons could be produced per year. Since the total hydroelectric capacity of Europe is given as between 5.05 and 6.05 million horsepower per year, this means that 1 hp per year would yield (in worst case scenario) 8.2 tons of nitrate per year. The US would require a paltry 70,000 horsepower to produce its entire nitrate requirement. Niagara Falls was producing 50,000 horsepower in 1895, and over 100,000 by 1905. This case makes this process look ridiculously easy: have your nation's government install a couple medium-sized dams, and send your boys to the trenches with all the explosives they need.

On the other hand, the writers also state that it requires 1 hp per year to produce 1 ton of nitrate per year, which is really confusing when compared to the numbers I just showed you; that means you need 8x as much hydroelectric power as you required in Case A for Case B. Your barely-noticeable government operation has now become a national plan that requires a bit of foresight, but it can still be used given a couple years of lead time. The United States, in this instance, now requires nearly 600,000 horsepower from its hydroelectric plants per year. That's quite a bit, but not too difficult, at least with some planning before a war. Construction of Niagara Falls' new power plant was slowed by the onset of WW1, but if a project of such national importance was needed in case of likely war, it could be accomplished with enough national will. Once the Falls got their new, additional power plants running, they produced 450,000 horsepower. If America's farmers go without quite as much fertilizer, the US can now be self-sufficient just using Niagara, though of course it would make more sense to use and build a good number of smaller hydroelectric plants elsewhere.

* * *

Hopefully this will be of use to someone. As I said before, feel free to use this in a time line, just credit me if possible. For flavor, and to make your time line sound a bit more top-notch, the three different sub-methods were the Birkeland-Eyde Furnace, the Pauling Furnace, and the Schonherr Furnace.

Thanks for tuning in! :)
Have your spies steal them?
 
I am rather surprised at the animosity expressed towards Comrade Cameron's well researched initial response.Certainly, his response was no more condescending than going around correcting folks about what constitutes a proper DBWI--or starting a whole thread about it--and his post was far more informative, as well as on topic. Apparently, someone is concerned about a mote despite there being a large piece of lumber in their own eye.

Getting back to case at hand, the bottom line as always is the bottom line.

The economics of the Norwegian plants and their profitability is based on the idea, noted by Comrade Cameron, that at this point of time that electricity is not efficiently transmitted over any great distances. Norway had already had the capital sunk into the hydroelectric plants, so the electricity had to be used for something. Using the electricity for nitrate plants were is not surprising given the great chemical industry, particularly explosives industry, in Sweden in part started by those Nobel boyz. (Recall, Norway was part of Sweden until 1905.)

That these nitrate plants stayed in service suggests not that the production of was particularly profitable but rather it was covered at least marginal costs better than anything else. That is to say, making nitrates may not have been profitable but rather may have been less of a loss than shutting the plants down or converting the plants over to something else.

Remember, electricity was not easily transmitted over distances at that time. The aluminum industry moving to the Cascades, the chemical industry moving to the Niagra area, and Union Carbide moving a major carbide plant to godforsaken Sault Ste. Marie are all examples of this.

Building such large scale hydro is risky. The Sault Ste. Marie hydroelectric plant, second at the time in the US only to the Niagra hydroelectric plant, is great example of this. The equity holders lost all their money. That's why most of the great dams, such as Grand Coulee were government projects. (I would not be surprised if the Norwegian hydroelectric projects were either government built or went through refinancing such as bankruptcy.)

Thus, such a project as switching tooling up for the electric production of nitrates must be viewed as akin to a switch to a national synthetic fuels. It is possible but difficult at the least.
 
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