WW1 Airborne Fleet Raid

DougM

I have heard tell that GB/the RN was considering an airborne raid on the German Fleet in its home anchorage using primarily torpedos. But that the war ended before they could finalize the plan and assemble the assets needed to conduct it.

Assuming that either the war lasted a bit longer of the planning and assets were brought together sooner and we actually saw a raid on the German Fleet in horbor. by RN aircraft using topeados. What do you think this would have done to the WW2 Peril Harbor raid?

I assume that if the RN WW1 raid had accomplished anything at all, that it would have resulted in all the navies be more concerned with the possibility in the future. That being said we had the RN WW2 raid on the Italian Fleet and still the US did not seam to step up its game so i guess it is possible that a successfull WW1 raid would not have changed much. at Peril Harbor.

Note i dont know enough about RN WW1 Aircraft and torpedoes to make any predictions on the. success or lack of if they managed to get the raid off. much less about the German port.
I would however assume that the more successful the raid more serious the navies of the world would take the danger and address the mater. Still that brings up what the US Navy could have done even if they had an example of how dangerous an air raid on ships in harbor could be.

Ao what is everyones thought?

I would guess that a sucsesfull WW1 raid. will mean a bit more attention to defensis in PH and probably more attention is paid to aircpatrols and radar. But the budget issues and human nature being what it is would i believe minimize these so called improvements.
 
Driftless

Driftless

Donor
"The Whale Has Wings" 20+ years earlier.

With the short ranged planes of that era capable of carrying torpedoes, you'd probably need a spectacular diversion to allow seaplane carrier(s) to get close enough for a launch. Plan "B" for damaged aircraft would be to land in neutral Netherlands or Denmark (with expected German diplomatic sword waving to follow)
 

naraic

The Tai-Pan said:
So you mean this- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_on_Cuxhaven

But directed at the High Seas Fleet at anchor?
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There was advanced planes for a torpedo attack on the high seas fleet.

Beatty did plan in 1917 with plans that involved converting 8 emergency carrier conversions and an April 1918 attack. The Admiralty said no and slower planning towards a 1919 attack commenced.

There was big risks of running into submarines off the German coast as you had to come in quiet close.

I believe they did a dummy attack on portions of the Grand Fleet in Portland Harbour 1919 in an exercise with over a hundred torpedo planes.
 
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Michael B

DougM said:
I would guess that a sucsesfull WW1 raid. will mean a bit more attention to defensis in PH and probably more attention is paid to aircpatrols and radar. But the budget issues and human nature being what it is would i believe minimize these so called improvements.
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If it was sucessful given it would be a torpedo attack that and not bombs would be seen to be the way to go attacks by aircraft on shipping.. If it was a diasaster it could set back carrier warfare.

I do not think that it would influence air defences any more or less than the German airships bombing London.
 

PMN1

The Royal Navy’s Air Service in the Great War: David Hobbs

The proposed 1917 raid would have used eight converted ships carrying 121 aircraft, 120 with torpedoes and 1 brightly coloured aircraft to act as raid commander which would stay in the area to co-ordinate the three waves and the H-12 flying boats flying from Felixstowe that would attack at the same time with 230lb bombs directed against floating docks, dockyard engine houses, magazine and submarines moored alongside each other in the basin.

Five aircraft flights from each of the eight ships would make up each wave of 40. As soon as the first flight of five had taken off, the second and third flights would be ranged and launched. Five was a good number to handle into position and launch quickly from a deck; there was at the time no experience of launching larger numbers in sequence. Furthermore, engines tended to overheat if kept running on deck so they were just started prior to take off; again five seemed to be a practical number to start and get airborne in a single batch. It was also deemed the minimum necessary to cripple a single capital ship at anchor.

The 8 ships would have a flight deck above the superstructure with no hanger.

Each ship would carry up to 17 Cuckoos and 2 Camel fighters.

Cover story was that the ships were destined for the Persian Gulf, Egyptian waters or the Red Sea and additional features were to be added to make this look the case such as fans, ventilation etc

The flying boats would refuel from destroyers on the way back.



Cruisers and destroyers would provide the close escort while mines would be laid in the theoretical way of German light forces from Emden and the Grand Fleet would provide distant cover.



The proposed 1918 raid would have used Furious, Vindictive and Argus,



On 6th September 1919 a demonstration raid was carried out on Portland with eleven aircraft in two groups, one with five torpedo aircraft with torpedoes with inert warheads and two aircraft with smoke bombs and the other with three aircraft with torpedoes with inert warheads and one aircraft with smoke bombs. The first group scored one hit each on Barham and Malaya, two on Implacable with the fifth torpedo diving into the seabed. The second group scored two hits on Queen Elizabeth, the last seems to have been a mistake as the crews claimed they thought they thought they were attacking Barham, with one torpedo diving into the seabed.
 

I lurk therefore I am

How about having the Cuxhaven raid in 1914 achieve much more success (ie hitting a couple of Zeppelin sheds and burning down the Airships), so that the RNAS pushes the development of torpedo bombers more.

This pushes the Vickers Vimy (which could carry two torpedoes) in to service faster, so enough are in available in 1918 to launch the strikes from the UK.

I'm sure a successful raid would cause a kerfuffle amongst many Admirals
 
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Garrison

Donor
Ironically this might be the solution to the issue in the Kriegsmarine Carriers thread in that a successful raid might well get Germany to take aircraft carriers seriously.
 

YYJ

How deep was the harbour in question? The RN at Taranto and the IJN at Pearl Harbour used two different innovations to keep the torpedoes from hitting bottom. The IJN solution was pretty complex and involved years of development.

Or do the old torpedoes dropped by low and slow biplane torpedo bombers not dive so deep?

At least the 1818 AAA on the ships and in the harbour would be less of a threat than the early 1940s guns the Taranto and Pearl Harbour raids faced.
 

YYJ

Here is a big old map of the fleet anchorage at Wilhemshaven. Depths in meters.

Here is a GPS map of the anchorage. I expect it would be dredged deeper now than it was then. I also am not really sure where the fleet anchorage was.

The fleet, or part of it, also spent time at Kiel and/or Cuxhaven.

When testing the unmodified Type 91 torpedoes for attacking Pearl Harbour, the IJN found that even dropping at 100 knots at a height of 10m, the torpedoes would still dive as deep as 20m, necessitating further measures to make them run shallower right from the drop.
 
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Post

YYJ said:
When testing the unmodified Type 91 torpedoes for attacking Pearl Harbour, the IJN found that even dropping at 100 knots at a height of 10m, the torpedoes would still dive as deep as 20m, necessitating further measures to make them run shallower right from the drop.
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100 knots is about the maximum speed of the Cuckoo, so they'll be going slower when they drop the torpedo.
 
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