Hitler decides that the Wehrmacht is truly invincible after invading France and tries to annex literally all of Europe by invading every neutral or allied state in the continent.
WW II Insanity Options
- Thread starter thewalton
- Start date
Re: Neutrality Acts. Made law circa 1934 they prohibited export of arms and 'war materials'. Not set aside until the autum of 1939 when the official policy became "Cash & Carry". On paper any action including Germany could then buy war material in the US. However the US government would not sanction or guarantee loans. US banks lent foreign nations funds for war purchases at their own risk. This meant the cash flush British & French governments could flood the US with Gold backed purchases. Germany who's credit was questionable, Gold reserves small and foreign currency reserves smaller could not buy much. They still tried. Chase bank had a arraignment with the Reichbank for many years & was interested. DuPont Chemical also had a joint venture with IG Farben in the form of Aniline Dye & was hopeful that might continue. But, between too little 'cash' and the British Blockade not much was actually delivered from the US to Germany.
France on the other hand had some 1800 aircraft scheduled for delivery from the US in 1940 (approx 600 shipped & 300 delivered). Contracts for 3,000+ aircraft from the US for 1941 were in place and more under negotiation. Two aircraft assembly plants had been built, in Morroco for the Martin 167 twin engine bomber, & another in Algeria for the Douglas B-7. A third assembly site for the Hawk-75 was operating in south France. Both France and Britain were seeking contracts to send overflow from their shipyards to the US, including refits of some of the Navy ships.
Isolationists opposed the rollback of the Neutrality Acts. They were fought by US business owners who were desperate to get their Depression stalled factories going again.
Hitler becomes aware of the action of Italian Fascists against German Speakers in the Southern Tyrol and rewrites Mein Kampf to include them rather than exclude them in his plans, though doesn’t actually invade Italy during this period, later he learns about the Alpine Wall and decides to not cooperate with Mussolini. When the Spanish Civil War occurs, Germany sells weapons and supplies to the Republic and provides no assistance to the side allied with Italy. When Japan invades China, Germany increases its Military advisors and financial support for China even more than it actually did, due in part to strong public support for this action and the positive (financial) experience of selling arms to the Spanish Republic. The Soviets also sell weapons to the Chinese as the Soviets also have military advisors with the Chinese. Germany never forms the Axis, not trusting Mussolini, tones down its animosity towards Communists and after the invasion of Poland keeps its nonaggression pact with the USSR. When France falls, Japan soon finds German advisors and warships in Indochina’s ports and supplies going to the China from a new location. Germany decides it likes the place and can do a better job than the French running it. They also soon invade and occupy the Dutch East Indies. Germany never invades the USSR as the two are functionally allies in an effort to free China from the Japanese with their advisors working together. In 1941 Japan in a surprise attack bombs Hanoi and sinks a portion of the German East Asian fleet. This triggers a true state of War with Japan. The USSR takes the opportunity to also declare War on Japan and invade Manchuria and eventually Korea. A different WW2, with the UK and Japan on the same side as WW1, having renewed their mutual defense treaty given both against Germany and USSR (triggered by invasion of Poland for the UK). And Germany and the USSR on the other side. France mostly sits out the War and frets about its colonies being taken over by the Germans after having lost their round with Germany, and Mussolini having clearly indicated no interest in Germany’s wars makes a mess on its own by invading Yugoslavia while still involved in a stalemated Spanish Civil War which actually drags on till after the big conflict ends and Germany and the USSR decide to pour their war surplus weapons into the Republic and Yugoslavia. Spain ends up a German ally and Yugoslavia a Soviet ally. The UK eventually asks for peace after Japan capitulates and Germany starts occupying all of France’s colonies and openly asks for the British to give back to Germany its former colonies while hinting it may well help the Indian independence movement. Japan is divided into a Soviet occupied northern islands nation and a German occupied southern islands nation. This does take until 1947 with a bloody invasion of the northern islands by the Red Army and the dropping of a German atomic bomb on the main southern island. The USA avoids the war entirely. After this war Germany and the USSR are much stronger while the USA remains peaceful, rich, and a bit worried about the future. Will the USSR and Germany stay friendly, unknown. The experience fighting Japan far from home was expensive , so attacking the USA seems unprofitable at this point and Italy is ripe for being cut up. Oh, and to add a twist, the Holocaust is a bit different in this time line. Jews and others are expelled, first to France, then French Colonies and some eventually to British Colonies. The Germans find them very useful, eventually acting as go betweens with the various native populations and the German Colonial government and it fits within the NAZI ideas regarding pecking order. The Arabs especially hate the Jews who they see as German lackies rather than as the near slaves they actually are as the British as part of their peace treaty in an effort to keep their colonies pull out of the Middle East except for Egypt and the Germans move in.
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- German invasion of Switzerland and Sweden
- South American State like Paraguay joins Axis
- German invasion of Portugal to secure Atlantic
coast
- Spain joining Axis
- Japanese successfully invade Madagascar and set up bases
- Axis Powers get more involved in Middle East theater
- Iraq or Iran becoming a member of the Axis
- Turkey joins the war much earlier for whatever reasons
- South American State like Paraguay joins Axis
- German invasion of Portugal to secure Atlantic
coast
- Spain joining Axis
- Japanese successfully invade Madagascar and set up bases
- Axis Powers get more involved in Middle East theater
- Iraq or Iran becoming a member of the Axis
- Turkey joins the war much earlier for whatever reasons
The planned French /British attempt to land troops in Finland could have complicated matters with the soviet union. Realistically Hitler is very unlikely to intervene, but he might be tempted to launch Fall Gelb sooner.
Do I get a prize for insanity by both the allies and axis?
Do I get a prize for insanity by both the allies and axis?
Coulsdon Eagle
Monthly Donor
The IJA and IJN decide to fight completely separate wars... sorry, that's OTL.
Good try but real insanity surely demands an air invasion instead!
Talking of which, how about Germany gets so worried about an invasion of the Frisian Islands that they fortify them to OTL Channel Island standards, place 100,000 troops there with a further 300,000 strong heavily motorised rapid response force on the mainland?
And since I'm on a roll, Britain, seeing a threat looming recognises that light tanks won't cut it and restarts production of the Vickers Medium - this time as the Mk3, uparmoured to 8 to 12mm. Stung by criticisms of the weak APHE, the 3 pounders are only issued with newly developed HE rounds. Anti tank capability is assured through the Mk3 TD armed with the newly developed 2 pounder AT gun, with three per company issued at HQ level.
I think the point of insanity options is for them to actually make sense from a certain point of view, be somewhat reasonable or seem good at the time without hindsight.
And honestly I find it hard to find such cases as every major power involved during WW2 had to be mentally insane with some decisions they took... some more insane than others. (IJA-IJN, British tank manufacturing, the RLM, etc.)
And honestly I find it hard to find such cases as every major power involved during WW2 had to be mentally insane with some decisions they took... some more insane than others. (IJA-IJN, British tank manufacturing, the RLM, etc.)
Didn't you know that talking sense risks showing up the rest of us?
So, let's try this.
The EMF gets more control over the tank arm and focusses solely on cruisers with AT weapons (the 2 pounder) and one company of engineers to deal with obstacles.
The Infantry tank is now an infantry weapon purely for infantry support and not for fighting tanks. The Matildas and Valentines are issued with a 57mm HE only gun. While immune to Italian AT weapons, the Italian tanks in North Africa are immune to the Matilda and Valentine, but fortunately the portee mounted 2 pounders make the difference.
While the Infantry tanks get ever thicker armour and an upgrade to 75mm and later 95mm HE weapons, the Tankies' cruisers get first a 6 pounder then a 12 pounder AT only weapon and armour is restricted to protection against rifle calibre only to become increasingly fast to better avoid the enemy AT weapons.
Rather oddly, thinking about what caused the main problems with tanks in North Africa [1], this might not make all that much difference overall.
[1] mostly people
Ironically this might make them more effective as infantry support and against the riveted armored of the Italian tanks : )
Perhaps give a similar 350 order off the drawing board to the TOG1 or Valiant like with the Churchill?
Germany decided Battleships were expensive, obsolescent and not really useful. It spent all the resouces on three or four aircraft carriers that make the Bearn look modern and roomy and the original Kaga configuration look well thought out. While the He51 and HS123 aircraft plus a few floatplanes were robust, they just weren't good enough or numerous enough to be useful
The casemated 4x single 11" guns turned out to be just as useful on the seabed as on the surface and even when test fired in calm seas caused damage to the ship and interfered with aircraft operations. .
The casemated 4x single 11" guns turned out to be just as useful on the seabed as on the surface and even when test fired in calm seas caused damage to the ship and interfered with aircraft operations. .
Back when the Avalon Hill game Co published their First Edition of the Game Third Reich in 1975... That year or the next a game replay was featured in the AH house magazine The General. The game ended in the second or third turn when the British player landed on the entirely undefended Frisian beaches and exploited a armor piece to undefended Berlin. Game over. The Axis player had no effective counter attack force to retake his capitol by the end of his turn. Since in the past 48 years I have never seen a example of Frisian left undefended by a German player in this game.
All the Allied and Axis nations implement their sanity options. Result the Allies still win but at an even more staggering financial, material and most of all human cost.
There's method in much of that madness.
- German invasion of Switzerland and Sweden.
- Agreed. It does the Axis no good and a lot of harm.
- South American State like Paraguay joins Axis.
- It depends upon the South American State and when they join.
- If it's one of the smaller ones like Paraguay it is insane.
- However, if it's one of the ABC powers, e.g. Argentina with a beefed up Navy, it would be interesting.
- German invasion of Portugal to secure Atlantic coast.
- That can only happen if Spain joins the Axis, in which case they have secured the Atlantic coast, so its pointless and as you say insane because the British get bases in the Azores sooner.
- Spain joining Axis.
- I'm not going there.
- Japanese successfully invade Madagascar and set up bases.
- With hindsight (and that's what alternative history is all about) not as insane as what they did instead: try to take Port Moresby and Midway.
- Yes that butterflies the loss of 2 American fleet carriers and one of their few oilers, but it also means that the USN fails to learn some valuable lessons about carrier warfare.
- It also prevents the loss of 4 fleet carriers, a light fleet carrier and a heavy cruiser, plus another heavy cruiser being heavily damaged.
- Madagascar is an objective the British would have to defend. Therefore, it's an opportunity for a decisive battle with the British Eastern Fleet which at the time had 3 of the RNs 4 Illustrious class aircraft carriers.
- It might have knock on effects on Malta because ships taken from the Eastern Fleet participated in Operations Harpoon-Vigorous and Pedestal.
- Japan can't beat the USA, but avoiding the OTL losses at the Coral Sea and Midway would help them a lot between July 1942 and December 1943. However, in 1944 they're probably extra target practice for the USN, that is if they hadn't been sunk between July 1942 and December 1943, which is possible.
- Axis Powers get more involved in Middle East theatre.
- I'm not going there either.
- Iraq or Iran becoming a member of the Axis.
- They were both occupied by the Allies IOTL so it makes little difference to them in the medium to long term.
- However, an earlier Iraqi revolt would be interesting because the British don't have the forces to do anything about it until their occupation of OTL unless they don't do something else in the Mediterranean and Middle East, e.g. no Operation Compass or delay the invasion of Italian East Africa.
- Turkey joins the war much earlier for whatever reasons.
- Is that much earlier on the Allied side as IOTL? Which, I think would help the Allies somewhat.
- Or is it on the Axis side? If it is on the Axis side and much earlier means 1940-41, it helps the Axis a lot.
Think either of these could be possible. The British might lose Iraq if they got too tied down on every other front, or if Spain and Turkey join the Axis and control the entire Mediterranean. Iran might join the Axis in these scenarios, too -- and/or if things go a lot worse for the USSR. Iran especially is very mountainous, and has a large population with many good reasons to hate Britain and Russia -- it could be a theatre for a long, bloody, costly, and slow insurgency. But then again, Iran was already under British/Russian occupation, and the Pahlavi dynasty's position was precarious.
Still -- I don't think Iraq or Iran are beyond the realm of possibility. If you want true insanity -- India joins the Axis!! Subhas Chandra Bose somehow wins over a majority of Indian Hindus, and his rebellion is somehow supported by the INC. He receives direct support from a somehow more successful Japan, and finds ideological support in Germany because they're both Aryans. Savriti Devi becomes an actually influential person. Gandhi is very confused. Muslims, Sikhs, and Tamils are shocked and horrified.
Why I have the feeling that this is the inspiration for the Frisian Islands Landing nonsense?