This may seem kind of broad, but WI the majority of the native peoples of North and South America had managed to develop written languages prior to the arrival of Europeans? Would relations between them and Europeans/descendants of Europeans have been better? Say the NA's prior to 1492 have flourishing written languages, the same way that Europe and Asia did. And why didn't they? IIRC even the more advanced civilizations like the Maya and Aztecs and Incas didn't have writing. Would they have been able to understand and relate to each other and to the Europeans better?
Written Native American language?
- Thread starter metalstar316
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The Incans, the Mayans and the Aztecs did have writing. An interesting POD would be if the Hurons or Iroquois came into contact with theAztecs or the Mayans, and learned to write....
Sachyriel
Banned
There were many written languages in the Americas, however in North America it's not like we needed them. We had a plentiful supply of food, water and the technology used back then was sufficient to allow for our continued survival. If you want to give the people around the Great Lakes more writing, you must make them need it to continue to live, as the world didn't make it hard enough for them to need to pass down complex instructions that can't be taught otherwise.
The Mayas did have a full logo-syllabic writing system, as did the Olmecs and Zapotecs. Aztec and Mixtec systems were pictographic and there is still debate as to how much of a writing system quipus were. As for North America, there is the Micmac hieroglyphs which may be Pre-Columbian in origin.
Writing could have spread north from Mesoamerica into the southwest and southeast along trade routes.
It probably wouldn't change much, but we would have more Native American POV histories and the racist lost white tribe myths may have been demolished in anthropological circles much earlier.
As other people have pointed out, various Mesoamerican cultures definately had writing systems, and possibly the Micmacs as well. I'm not sure if the birch bark scrolls of the Ojibwa went back to Pre-Columbian times... They weren't a writing system, but they were a step in that direction.
There are also strong arguments that the quipu of the Incas and the wampum in the Eastern Woodlands worked in place of and in much the same way as writing systems.
There are also strong arguments that the quipu of the Incas and the wampum in the Eastern Woodlands worked in place of and in much the same way as writing systems.
Keenir
Banned
exactly how hard is that?
I mean the Greeks weren't exactly writing down their stories for a long long while either.
the Mayans and others used their writing system to enforce their kingships.
Sachyriel
Banned
Well with herds of buffalo being chased off a cliff, it's kinda easy to teach people how to do it, some tricks passed on generation by generation. Setting up tepees, domesticating dogs, picking berries, using certain types of medicine to heal common ailments. Some of the most complex hunting stories were written on the sides of Native American houses, the boasting of how much a hunt gotten by a great hunter was on the side of his tent.
That was kinda developed well after the arrival of the Europeans. Read the OP again.
I don't think it would cause any major direc changes. Obviously there will be immense and important butterflies, but we can't really predict those.
I think the first question we need to ask is why get writing. Early writing seems to have been used mainly for the purpose of bureaucracy, trade and, religion. I think the most likely reason for widespread adoption among Native Americans of writing is the use by administration, particularly in the Mississippian basin and the Southwest, which seems to have had a more organised governmental system then their more north-easterly counterparts (I find it highly unlikely that any non agricultural group would adopt writing, so I have discounted them for this thought experiment), and I think it wold be easy to see Cahokian priest-kings using writing to plan development and extract taxes. The Southwest, with its complex systems of irrigation and cults. In the Northeast I'm not seeing the form of bureaucracy that early writing usually shows appears in, with neither the governmental or religious organization that usually would create writing. However we can probably get some form of writing even if it requires upping the level of organization in the Northeast.
Then the question becomes how they get writing. There are two scenarios, that writing spreads from Mexico northwards, or that writing gets developed independently and then gets spread. However, writing has only ever been invented independently definately three times (China, Mesopotamia, Mesoamerica,) and maybe five other times (Egypt, The Anatolian highlands, Easter Islands, the Andes, the Indus Valley), so having the independent invention seems implausible, so spreading from Mexico makes more sense.
In South America, the question comes down to whether the quipu was writing (or at least some form of information record with clearly identifiable parts that is not subject to any more interpretation then speech). If it is, then we simply need to spread it to the Colombian agriculturalists and maybe the Amazonian civilizations (if they existed). The peoples in the Carri bean can probably gain writing from mesoamerica.
I think the first question we need to ask is why get writing. Early writing seems to have been used mainly for the purpose of bureaucracy, trade and, religion. I think the most likely reason for widespread adoption among Native Americans of writing is the use by administration, particularly in the Mississippian basin and the Southwest, which seems to have had a more organised governmental system then their more north-easterly counterparts (I find it highly unlikely that any non agricultural group would adopt writing, so I have discounted them for this thought experiment), and I think it wold be easy to see Cahokian priest-kings using writing to plan development and extract taxes. The Southwest, with its complex systems of irrigation and cults. In the Northeast I'm not seeing the form of bureaucracy that early writing usually shows appears in, with neither the governmental or religious organization that usually would create writing. However we can probably get some form of writing even if it requires upping the level of organization in the Northeast.
Then the question becomes how they get writing. There are two scenarios, that writing spreads from Mexico northwards, or that writing gets developed independently and then gets spread. However, writing has only ever been invented independently definately three times (China, Mesopotamia, Mesoamerica,) and maybe five other times (Egypt, The Anatolian highlands, Easter Islands, the Andes, the Indus Valley), so having the independent invention seems implausible, so spreading from Mexico makes more sense.
In South America, the question comes down to whether the quipu was writing (or at least some form of information record with clearly identifiable parts that is not subject to any more interpretation then speech). If it is, then we simply need to spread it to the Colombian agriculturalists and maybe the Amazonian civilizations (if they existed). The peoples in the Carri bean can probably gain writing from mesoamerica.
In North America, epidemies kill the majority of natives,
forcing them into new communities across different peoples.
Thus much of their culture was lost, often before first direct
contact with Europeans.
The art of writing could have served its main purpose here:
To conserve cultural items.
forcing them into new communities across different peoples.
Thus much of their culture was lost, often before first direct
contact with Europeans.
The art of writing could have served its main purpose here:
To conserve cultural items.
He didn't say it would have served,
he said it could have served.
Implicit in the usage of "could" is the
"with luck"...
Not so long ago you would've put Mayan glyphs in the same category.
And that, dear friends, helps explains why there were no true pre-columbian writing systems outside of MesoAmerica in north america. Writing was independently invented in only a few areas of the world (one of which being mesoamerica), and in each one where the scripts have been largely translated, they were used by religious and political elites to solidify their authority. There is no evidence of any tribal or non-stratified societies "inventing" writing - although some will adopt it because it helps their dealings with adjacent state-level literate societies (the Cherokee script being a good example).
Given enough time, it is possible that the basic concepts of Mesoamerican scripts may have spread among the elites of the Mississippian cultures.
One might also expect that writing systems (perhaps influenced by Asian systems) could catch on in the highly stratified Northwest Coast as part of the Potlatch traditions used by wealthy elites to brag on themselves.
Leo Caesius
Banned
I would cautiously agree, with the caveat that some of the earliest writing systems were devised to foster bookkeeping and other economic activities--e.g. the late Uruk period "script" (which was used throughout the region, undoubtedly by people of different ethnic and linguistic backgrounds), Linear B and probably Linear A as well. Some would also suggest that the Vinca "script" and the Indus Valley seals fall into this category, even if it is far from certain that they are scripts in any meaningful sense of the word. The latest findings from Wadi el-Hol suggest that the earliest alphabetic script may have been devised by speakers of some NW Semitic language who were transplanted (as slaves?) to work in Egyptian quarries.
Agreed, outside of Mesoamerica and the Mississippian kingdoms, the only people who'd have a use for writing are the tribes of Pacific Northwest, the Tlingit, Haida, Kwakiutl, etc. They had a well defined class system and complex society beyond simply surviving like the others. Then again, there is also the possibility of a pictographic system from Mexico being adopted by Anasazi too.
He didn't say it would have served,
he said it could have served.
Implicit in the usage of "could" is the
"with luck"...
Thanks, William. Moreover, I am not talking about millenia,
I'm talking about a couple of decades until direct contact between
colonists/conquerors and natives is established.
With high probability, things will go as they did from then onward.
But it's another player's turn then ...