Wrestling Challenge: WCW and original ECW survive
- Thread starter Hashasheen
- Start date
I think WCW never putting the stake in the heart of the nWo helped lead to its downfall in a major way. The good guys never won, so why cheer for them?
That said...
*****
Sting beats Hogan clean at Starrcade. Hogan gets some offense in, but in ten solid minutes, Sting cleanly wins. No interference.
Hogan gets his rematch at Souled Out, and all signs point to the NWO interfering, but the WCW faithful fight them off during the match. Sting hits the Stinger Splash, but Nash pulls him off and starts wailing on him. Hogan grabs a chair, goes to waffle Sting, but misses and cracks Nash, Sting hits the Death Drop and gets the win. Bret Hart beats Randy Savage on the undercard.
Now Nash and Hogan start pointing fingers, and you can sense the tide is turned firmly in WCW’s favor. During the lead up to Superbrawl, Hogan says he’s going to make things right and make sure the Outsiders keep the tag team titles against the Horseman team of Chris Benoit and Jeff Jarrett. At Superbrawl, in a competitive match, the Horsemen take the gold because Nash spent most of the time staring at Hogan to make sure he didn’t do anything, but Hogan never interferes, so the loss is “all on Nash.” Also, in a #1 contenders match, the Giant beats Randy Savage to become the #1 contender.
Nash and Hogan go at it at Uncensored, with the winner taking control of the nWo, and Nash wins. Sting beats the Giant in the main event. Ric Flair beats DDP in a tough match to become the #1 contender. Goldberg starts (or continues) his streak here against Buff Bagwell. Bret Hart and Dean Malenko go to a draw over the US title during this as well in a well-book, well-received match.
Now, we get the big lead up to Spring Stampede, Ric Flair vs. Sting, and Nash plans to stick his nose in. Flair and Sting unite during the weeks leading up to it to fend off the NWO, along with Bret Hart providing back up and drawing the ire of one Scott Hall, who pledges to put Hart out for good. On the Nitro before Spring Stampede, however, Flair and Sting are in the ring, brawling with Hogan and Nash...and as WCW stands triumphant for a moment, Flair hits Sting from behind, before nodding to a confused Nash and Hogan and leaving with the rest of the Horsemen up the aisleway, causing the announcers to wonder what the hell happened until someone says “Did the Horseman just side with the NWO?”
At Spring Stampede, Bret Hart beats Hall, and pledges to cut the heart out of the NWO by defeating Hogan once and for all. Benoit and Jarrett come out in black-and-white outfits for their match against Lugar and DDP. Goldberg defeats Chris Jericho and becomes the #1 contender to Dean Malenko’s US title. Flair comes out in a black-and-white robe and goes all out old-school heel against Sting, but it takes Hogan and Nash interfering for Sting to lose and Flair to become World Champion again.
The next night, everyone in the NWO is talking about how the Horsemen are with them. At the end of Nitro, Flair’s in the ring, being booed hardcore, until the NWO come out, and Hogan makes an official offer...and Flair cuts a classic promo about how the dirtiest player in the game took full advantage of the NWO's gang tactics and let them beat Sting bloody so he could win the title back. “I don’t need the NWO! You’re nothing anymore! Your moment in the sun is done, baby, and it’s time for the Horsemen, whoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, to ride again!” Cue a NWO/Horsemen brawl that ends with Sting repelling from the ceiling and beating up both sides with a bat.
The rest of the summer is Horsemen/Sting and his allies Lugar and Hart/NWO fighting for supremacy. Goldberg takes the US title from Malenko at a Clash of the Champions and starts a solid run with the belt, remaining undefeated over the summer.
This all leads up to Fall Brawl, and War Games.
It’s a three-way War Games, with Benoit/Jarrett/McMichael/Flair on one side, Hogan/Nash/Hall/Henning on another side, and Sting/Luger/Hart/DDP on the last side. Losing team disbands/can never team up again. Goldberg beats Savage in 5 minutes on the undercard to retain the US title. Luger gets jumped by the NWO and taken out (due to a real life injury he suffered during the week), so WCW is down a man. But they soldier on, and the last man in the cage is WCW’s...
...Goldberg.
He wrecks the joint, knocking Henning clear into another cage with a clothesline, before grabbing Nash...and Flair waffles him with a steel chair from behind, which does nothing. Flair pleads, but Goldberg spears him and takes him out. DDP Diamond Cutter’s Nash, Hart locks Hall in the Sharpshooter, and Sting Death Drops Hogan one last time before locking in the Scorpion Deathlock and making Hogan give up.
No more NWO, and it’s WCW with the win, and not the NWO turning on themselves.
I think eventually, Sting/Goldberg is the dream, but at the same time, you need Flair to help build the angle. Sting’s good, but Flair made him magic, and I think he could do the same for Goldberg. And now you can legit add Hart to the mix. And Nash and Hall are still around, and Savage, and Hogan, but they're not RUNNING things anymore.
That said...
*****
Sting beats Hogan clean at Starrcade. Hogan gets some offense in, but in ten solid minutes, Sting cleanly wins. No interference.
Hogan gets his rematch at Souled Out, and all signs point to the NWO interfering, but the WCW faithful fight them off during the match. Sting hits the Stinger Splash, but Nash pulls him off and starts wailing on him. Hogan grabs a chair, goes to waffle Sting, but misses and cracks Nash, Sting hits the Death Drop and gets the win. Bret Hart beats Randy Savage on the undercard.
Now Nash and Hogan start pointing fingers, and you can sense the tide is turned firmly in WCW’s favor. During the lead up to Superbrawl, Hogan says he’s going to make things right and make sure the Outsiders keep the tag team titles against the Horseman team of Chris Benoit and Jeff Jarrett. At Superbrawl, in a competitive match, the Horsemen take the gold because Nash spent most of the time staring at Hogan to make sure he didn’t do anything, but Hogan never interferes, so the loss is “all on Nash.” Also, in a #1 contenders match, the Giant beats Randy Savage to become the #1 contender.
Nash and Hogan go at it at Uncensored, with the winner taking control of the nWo, and Nash wins. Sting beats the Giant in the main event. Ric Flair beats DDP in a tough match to become the #1 contender. Goldberg starts (or continues) his streak here against Buff Bagwell. Bret Hart and Dean Malenko go to a draw over the US title during this as well in a well-book, well-received match.
Now, we get the big lead up to Spring Stampede, Ric Flair vs. Sting, and Nash plans to stick his nose in. Flair and Sting unite during the weeks leading up to it to fend off the NWO, along with Bret Hart providing back up and drawing the ire of one Scott Hall, who pledges to put Hart out for good. On the Nitro before Spring Stampede, however, Flair and Sting are in the ring, brawling with Hogan and Nash...and as WCW stands triumphant for a moment, Flair hits Sting from behind, before nodding to a confused Nash and Hogan and leaving with the rest of the Horsemen up the aisleway, causing the announcers to wonder what the hell happened until someone says “Did the Horseman just side with the NWO?”
At Spring Stampede, Bret Hart beats Hall, and pledges to cut the heart out of the NWO by defeating Hogan once and for all. Benoit and Jarrett come out in black-and-white outfits for their match against Lugar and DDP. Goldberg defeats Chris Jericho and becomes the #1 contender to Dean Malenko’s US title. Flair comes out in a black-and-white robe and goes all out old-school heel against Sting, but it takes Hogan and Nash interfering for Sting to lose and Flair to become World Champion again.
The next night, everyone in the NWO is talking about how the Horsemen are with them. At the end of Nitro, Flair’s in the ring, being booed hardcore, until the NWO come out, and Hogan makes an official offer...and Flair cuts a classic promo about how the dirtiest player in the game took full advantage of the NWO's gang tactics and let them beat Sting bloody so he could win the title back. “I don’t need the NWO! You’re nothing anymore! Your moment in the sun is done, baby, and it’s time for the Horsemen, whoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, to ride again!” Cue a NWO/Horsemen brawl that ends with Sting repelling from the ceiling and beating up both sides with a bat.
The rest of the summer is Horsemen/Sting and his allies Lugar and Hart/NWO fighting for supremacy. Goldberg takes the US title from Malenko at a Clash of the Champions and starts a solid run with the belt, remaining undefeated over the summer.
This all leads up to Fall Brawl, and War Games.
It’s a three-way War Games, with Benoit/Jarrett/McMichael/Flair on one side, Hogan/Nash/Hall/Henning on another side, and Sting/Luger/Hart/DDP on the last side. Losing team disbands/can never team up again. Goldberg beats Savage in 5 minutes on the undercard to retain the US title. Luger gets jumped by the NWO and taken out (due to a real life injury he suffered during the week), so WCW is down a man. But they soldier on, and the last man in the cage is WCW’s...
...Goldberg.
He wrecks the joint, knocking Henning clear into another cage with a clothesline, before grabbing Nash...and Flair waffles him with a steel chair from behind, which does nothing. Flair pleads, but Goldberg spears him and takes him out. DDP Diamond Cutter’s Nash, Hart locks Hall in the Sharpshooter, and Sting Death Drops Hogan one last time before locking in the Scorpion Deathlock and making Hogan give up.
No more NWO, and it’s WCW with the win, and not the NWO turning on themselves.
I think eventually, Sting/Goldberg is the dream, but at the same time, you need Flair to help build the angle. Sting’s good, but Flair made him magic, and I think he could do the same for Goldberg. And now you can legit add Hart to the mix. And Nash and Hall are still around, and Savage, and Hogan, but they're not RUNNING things anymore.
The downfall of WCW was more of a problem than simple story lines, though the collapse of the company is somewhat related to it. They couldn't get the buyers. Eric Bischoff tried to get the company, but the deal lost one of its backers and WCW eventually fell into the lap of Vince McMahon. Get the deal to work for Eric Bischoff and you could see a continuation of WCW as a competitor with the WWF (later WWE).
President Al Bundy
Banned
What WCW needed was money, and a man who had enough power but wasn't such an egomaniac like other people in the company. Maybe Flair could fill the role, because he surely had some support among the midcard/lowercard wrestlers. But if he really could have countered Hogan's/Nash's or Bischoff's ideas? Sting might also be a choice, but to be honest, Sting was more in a "do the job" attitude, so he might have had no interest in becoming a backstage leader. Bret Hart might also be possible, but he was new in WCW and didn't have the status he had in the WWE.
First of all, WCW should have put the money-matches on PPV, to earn extra money and higher buyrates. The perfect example is Goldberg vs. Hulk Hogan. In 1998, WCW could have earned money all the way, if they would have put it on PPV. The same with Hogan vs. Nash (Vince McMahon said once, that this match could have been a WrestleMania-Main Event). Apart from the most pathetic finish in professional wrestling, this would have also been a match people wanted to see. And this list could go on.
Then, WCW should have safed the huge profits they made in the end of the 90's and not spent their money for any guy that was in the WWF (They even hired WWF-jobber Barry Horowitz!!!) or for any other crap (Especially celebrities
).
And the most important point, they should have pushed the younger wrestlers. If they had pushed wrestlers like Chris Jericho, Chris Benoit or Eddie Guerrero, they would have not only stolen away potential world champions from the WWE (All three would become World Champions IOTL), but also created stars that would have sold-out arenas and merchandise. And remember, Benoit was already WCW World Champion in 2000, right before he went to the WWE.
And last but not least, they should get rid of the old men, especially Hogan and Savage. Nash was still good for the WCW, so was Hall. But Hogan and Savage were just too old (Watch their match from Uncensored 1998, and you know what I mean.).
Though I kept out points like writers or storylines, WCW could have survived with these measures.
First of all, WCW should have put the money-matches on PPV, to earn extra money and higher buyrates. The perfect example is Goldberg vs. Hulk Hogan. In 1998, WCW could have earned money all the way, if they would have put it on PPV. The same with Hogan vs. Nash (Vince McMahon said once, that this match could have been a WrestleMania-Main Event). Apart from the most pathetic finish in professional wrestling, this would have also been a match people wanted to see. And this list could go on.
Then, WCW should have safed the huge profits they made in the end of the 90's and not spent their money for any guy that was in the WWF (They even hired WWF-jobber Barry Horowitz!!!) or for any other crap (Especially celebrities
).And the most important point, they should have pushed the younger wrestlers. If they had pushed wrestlers like Chris Jericho, Chris Benoit or Eddie Guerrero, they would have not only stolen away potential world champions from the WWE (All three would become World Champions IOTL), but also created stars that would have sold-out arenas and merchandise. And remember, Benoit was already WCW World Champion in 2000, right before he went to the WWE.
And last but not least, they should get rid of the old men, especially Hogan and Savage. Nash was still good for the WCW, so was Hall. But Hogan and Savage were just too old (Watch their match from Uncensored 1998, and you know what I mean.).
Though I kept out points like writers or storylines, WCW could have survived with these measures.
There seems to be a reasonable amount of discussion on saving WCW, so I'll take a look at ECW instead.
Paul Heyman had a great thing going for him, and a huge problem up against him. The great thing was his booking style; the problem was that he had absolutely no head for numbers. The first possible POD for keeping ECW alive would have been in 1996. OTL, Tod Gordon sold his stake in ECW to Paul Heyman. If, instead, Heyman had led a group of investors, rather than purchasing the company himself, he would have had more significant financial backing, and been better able to weather the storm. This also wouldn't be too terribly likely to butterfly away anything that happened on screen, presuming the backers were silent partners who combined for less than a 49% stake in the company.
Another possible POD, closer to the end, was the ECW on TNN deal. Personally, I'm of the opinion that Heyman got jobbed there. ECW was TNN's top rated show, and would have continued as such if they didn't sign the WWF deal. Can't blame TNN for that, since they'd have been idiots not to sign the WWF, but this absolutely crushed ECW. Heyman, reliant on TNN's TV deal and money, couldn't afford to fulfill his obligations, and the company collapsed. However, he wouldn't have overextended ECW in the first place if they hadn't signed the national TV deal. The problem is identifying a reason why Heyman would avoid the deal without the benefit of hindsight.
The best solution I can come up with here is that Heyman smells a rat when negotiating with TNN. The major problems here for Heyman are that TNN had unrealistic expectations of ECW (WWF/WCW level production values, promotional blitzes built around people ECW couldn't afford to sign), and wouldn't provide enough financial support to meet those expectations. If Heyman got a glimpse that this was going to happen (assuming that this is separate from my other prospective POD) he could insist on better terms than he got. ECW could have survived without TNN; it's only when they signed the contract that things got out of control. This would have left ECW free to sign a better deal further down the road, with fewer network obligations.
Alternately, if Heyman had required, as part of the TV deal, that TNN purchase a minority stake in ECW, "The Network" would have had access to Heyman's books, and a financial obligation to support the company more fully. This could give Heyman access to some TNN money, enough to consummate the deals TNN expected with Taz and the Dudley Boys, and would keep Heyman from having to scramble to find new stars and an audience at the same time. Given that TNN would have an ownership stake in ECW, they'd be less likely to cut the cord when the possibility of a WWF deal came along, and might actually have tried a bookend strategy of Raw on Monday and ECW on Friday. (Granted, the WWF might have returned to USA instead, but I can't imagine that being bad for ATL, either, so if that's how it broke down, so much the better.)
Paul Heyman had a great thing going for him, and a huge problem up against him. The great thing was his booking style; the problem was that he had absolutely no head for numbers. The first possible POD for keeping ECW alive would have been in 1996. OTL, Tod Gordon sold his stake in ECW to Paul Heyman. If, instead, Heyman had led a group of investors, rather than purchasing the company himself, he would have had more significant financial backing, and been better able to weather the storm. This also wouldn't be too terribly likely to butterfly away anything that happened on screen, presuming the backers were silent partners who combined for less than a 49% stake in the company.
Another possible POD, closer to the end, was the ECW on TNN deal. Personally, I'm of the opinion that Heyman got jobbed there. ECW was TNN's top rated show, and would have continued as such if they didn't sign the WWF deal. Can't blame TNN for that, since they'd have been idiots not to sign the WWF, but this absolutely crushed ECW. Heyman, reliant on TNN's TV deal and money, couldn't afford to fulfill his obligations, and the company collapsed. However, he wouldn't have overextended ECW in the first place if they hadn't signed the national TV deal. The problem is identifying a reason why Heyman would avoid the deal without the benefit of hindsight.
The best solution I can come up with here is that Heyman smells a rat when negotiating with TNN. The major problems here for Heyman are that TNN had unrealistic expectations of ECW (WWF/WCW level production values, promotional blitzes built around people ECW couldn't afford to sign), and wouldn't provide enough financial support to meet those expectations. If Heyman got a glimpse that this was going to happen (assuming that this is separate from my other prospective POD) he could insist on better terms than he got. ECW could have survived without TNN; it's only when they signed the contract that things got out of control. This would have left ECW free to sign a better deal further down the road, with fewer network obligations.
Alternately, if Heyman had required, as part of the TV deal, that TNN purchase a minority stake in ECW, "The Network" would have had access to Heyman's books, and a financial obligation to support the company more fully. This could give Heyman access to some TNN money, enough to consummate the deals TNN expected with Taz and the Dudley Boys, and would keep Heyman from having to scramble to find new stars and an audience at the same time. Given that TNN would have an ownership stake in ECW, they'd be less likely to cut the cord when the possibility of a WWF deal came along, and might actually have tried a bookend strategy of Raw on Monday and ECW on Friday. (Granted, the WWF might have returned to USA instead, but I can't imagine that being bad for ATL, either, so if that's how it broke down, so much the better.)
My thoughts on WCW
WCW's biggest problem was that the people who ran the company rarely understood how to do so properly. When the Crocketts owned it in the 80s, they were trying to compete with WWF on a national scale and putting on events in areas where no one had heard of them. After Turner bought it, the ones in charge were mostly trying to go way "old school" or were simply putting on a show in a business they knew little if anything about. When Bischoff ran things during the early Monday Night Wars, the main events while interesting usually were the same month after month and the NWO was eventually watered down. After Russo was brought in, the storylines written were only good for a couple of chapters before they became nonsensical. By that time, the damage was done and the company was trying to put a band-aid on somthing requiring major surgery. When Turner was forced out, they lost their safety net, and were now one company in a corporate jungle where no one really wanted them. In the last days of the company, the guaranteed contracts had created an attitude where no one really wanted to work hard, and caused several wrestlers to feel that they were stuck where they were in their careers.
My thoughts on ECW
The early days of ECW featured highly competent technical wrestlers who put on high-quality matches. Many of those early stars would become world champions in WWE (Rey Mysterio, Chris Jericho, Chris Benoit, and the late great Eddie Guerrero). The hardcore matches, while entertaining to some (like me), generally appealed to one particular niche of the wrestling fans. Paul Heyman, as stated in previous posts, was a brilliant promoter but a lousy businessman. With the TNN deal, the cable company never really understood what ECW was like.
Final Thoughts
I think the bottom line is that WCW grew too large to fast and eventually collapsed under its own weight without anyone really paying attention to where the company was heading, while ECW could never really get the national promotion like the other 2 companies, could never get the money to compete successfully with said companies, and thus never really grew from its small venue status.
WCW's biggest problem was that the people who ran the company rarely understood how to do so properly. When the Crocketts owned it in the 80s, they were trying to compete with WWF on a national scale and putting on events in areas where no one had heard of them. After Turner bought it, the ones in charge were mostly trying to go way "old school" or were simply putting on a show in a business they knew little if anything about. When Bischoff ran things during the early Monday Night Wars, the main events while interesting usually were the same month after month and the NWO was eventually watered down. After Russo was brought in, the storylines written were only good for a couple of chapters before they became nonsensical. By that time, the damage was done and the company was trying to put a band-aid on somthing requiring major surgery. When Turner was forced out, they lost their safety net, and were now one company in a corporate jungle where no one really wanted them. In the last days of the company, the guaranteed contracts had created an attitude where no one really wanted to work hard, and caused several wrestlers to feel that they were stuck where they were in their careers.
My thoughts on ECW
The early days of ECW featured highly competent technical wrestlers who put on high-quality matches. Many of those early stars would become world champions in WWE (Rey Mysterio, Chris Jericho, Chris Benoit, and the late great Eddie Guerrero). The hardcore matches, while entertaining to some (like me), generally appealed to one particular niche of the wrestling fans. Paul Heyman, as stated in previous posts, was a brilliant promoter but a lousy businessman. With the TNN deal, the cable company never really understood what ECW was like.
Final Thoughts
I think the bottom line is that WCW grew too large to fast and eventually collapsed under its own weight without anyone really paying attention to where the company was heading, while ECW could never really get the national promotion like the other 2 companies, could never get the money to compete successfully with said companies, and thus never really grew from its small venue status.
Then, WCW should have safed the huge profits they made in the end of the 90's and not spent their money for any guy that was in the WWF (They even hired WWF-jobber Barry Horowitz!!!) or for any other crap (Especially celebrities
indeed, I remember this huge cage match between Hogan and friends (or was it just Randy Savage?) and Jimmy Heart's dungeon + the horsemen. especially for that match, WCW brought in Zeus (as 'Ze Gangsta') and barely used him ... probably because Tommy Lister isn't a wrestler. So, why throw hard earned cash at him?
Same with the Ultimate Warrior ... it was abundantly clear that Hellwig physically no longer had what it took to be a pro wrestler. again, tons of cash down the drain.
all in all, in the late 90s, WWF/E was on the ropes. Their only really big talent was the Undertaker and they grossly overused him as a result. This while WCW was just coming out of a period of young and fresh wrestler being given important matches.
and then WCW made a 180, most of the cruiserweight storylines were dropped in favour of established stars having their 229th match together.
personally, I'd much rather watch Chris Benoit vs Psychosis then Flair vs Luger.
Now, could this have saved WCW? keep pushing the cruiserweights AND a handfull of big stars?
It would definitly have given them a fighting chance.
Vince
Monthly Donor
If I remember correctly Hogan's contract gave him creative control so any idea about his character he didn't like he could nix killing any chance at a good storyline. You then end up with things like the "Fingerpoke of Doom" and his Starcade match with Sting that (after building Sting up for a year) kills his character. You have to make sure that Hogan's contract doesn't let him get away with things like this to make WCW storylines better.
When WCW was run by "Cowboy" Bill Watts he left such a bad impression on the men Ted Turner placed in charge of the production of the company that they declared there would never again be a wrestling man in charge of the company, but they were wrong.
Eric Bischoff was a wrestling man who had begun his career in wrestling as an on-screen interviewer for Verne Gagne in the AWA. After he was finished with the AWA when the AWA was on the way out Bischoff had an interview with the WWF/E in 1990 but failed to get a job there. While Vince McMahon has expressed regret that he didn't sign Bischoff then and Bischoff has simply said that he didn't get the job because he didn't deserve it this did seemingly leave a bad taste in his mouth with the WWF/E.
After Bill Watts was fired there were two main runners for the Executive Producers role, producer Tony Schiavone and Vice President of Broadcasting Jim Ross but Bischoff (who had been under the two of them) went to TBS executive Bill Shaw and WCW Vice President Bob Dhue and asked them for the job. Because of Bill Watts and, before him, Ole Anderson's effect on the WCW higher ups Ross and Schiavone were not going to get the job because they were known to be wrestling men but Bischoff was an unknown to them and appears to be more a corporate man than a wrestling man so he got them job. JR resigned out of frustration and dissapointment that he had been passed over for the job in favor of someone who had worked under him just slightly before and made his way to the WWF/E to become the voice of Monday Night RAW.
Bischoff was a double edged sword as Executive Producer and later Vice President and President of WCW. On the plus side he convined Ted Turner to invest more money into the company than he had ever done before and used this to sign big name stars like Hulk Hogan and produce a better standard of show and increase the number of PPV's but on the down side he gave the mainevent level talent too much creative control and they used it for their own benefit no the benefit of the company and as WCW became more and more successful, in the early period, Bischoff became obsessed with putting Vince out of Business and in doing so he pushed WCW to run beyond its means.
When Time Warner merged with Turner Broadcasting things began to go further down hill than it had under Bischoff's slight over-ambition. Before this Ted Turner had been content to leave the running of WCW in Bischoff's hands, so long as they turned some kind of profit and contined to compete for the position as top company in the world then he was happy, but with this merger of the two companies Turner began to be pushed out of his position of power and the new men in power didn't like WCW, the direction it was going and didn't, really, support the product.
Bischoff was told by these new owners that he would have to make WCW more "family friendly" and that his financing for the product would be restricted (lessened) and even his power as producer would be lessened. He objected by was force to give in when it was clear Ted Turner was in no position to support him.
The addition of Thursday's "Thunder" programme and an extra Hour to Monday Nitro pushed WCW's production staff and its finances (now less than they were) beyond what was sustainable. In addition to the WWF/E introducing its "Attitude" style of programming these restriction on WCW's creativity saw WCW's decline and the WWF/E's rise. In essence WCW had gone from programming with edge and interest into progamming with out it while the WWF/E had gone from programming without edge to programming with it - they had reversed their roles.
Vince Russo's introduction as a writer lead to the increase in silly storylines, poor booking and bad angles and WCW - which had been on par with the WWF/E in terms of ratings, attendences and PPV buy rates when he arrived - lost a great deal of fans until it was getting less than half the fan base the WWF/E was doing.
Between Bischoff's overambitions, WCW Main-eventers self-serving attitudes and Russo's bad writing WCW decline was certain but even so it was the lack of interest Time Warner showed in the product that doomed it to extinction.
Time Warner had never liked that they had wrestling on their programming. They saw it was low brow and hated that they lost money to keep it going. The only reason they didn't axe it when they merged with Turner Broadcasting was because Ted Turner wouldn't let them. When AOL merged with Time Warner in 2000 Ted Turner finally lost his power base in the company and the company subsqeuently decided that WCW was an un-needed drain on their resources and began to auction it off.
When this happened Bischoff made a bid for it in the hopes of saving the company but was rejected but he returned later in the year with a new consortium of investors with another bid that was accepted. When the WWF/E made inquiries Bischoff and his cosortium withdrew their interest but when Viacom (then WWF/E's broadcaster) objected to a WWF/E owned market Bischoff's cosortium stated their renewed intent.
But before the sale to Bischoff and Co. coud go through the AOL Time Warner executive Jamie Kellner axed WCW from the programming. Bischoff's bid was reliant on AOL Time Warner still showing the product on their programming - at least long enough to get it sold to FOX or NBC - but with no channel to broadcast on WCW was of no value to Bischoff and Co. and the deal fell through.
WWF/E subsequently restated their interest and bought the company up. However Vince was unable to buy up the major stars of WCW due to the fact that AOL Time Warner had contracts with individual performers outside of the Wrestling product. Of all the major stars of WCW Vince was only able to bring in one during his "Alliance Invasion" angle - that was DDP - but he managed also managed to bring in WCW main-eventer Booker T however both of them were poorly used and repesented as nothing more than mid-carders compared to the WWF/E stars.
If WCW had a company that owned it that cared for it and wanted it then it would still be around today. If Ted Turner had not been forced out of his position of power WCW would still be around today. Even with all the problems caused by Bischoff, Russo, Hogan, Nash and Co. it was the lack of interest from AOL Time Warner that killed WCW off.
Eric Bischoff was a wrestling man who had begun his career in wrestling as an on-screen interviewer for Verne Gagne in the AWA. After he was finished with the AWA when the AWA was on the way out Bischoff had an interview with the WWF/E in 1990 but failed to get a job there. While Vince McMahon has expressed regret that he didn't sign Bischoff then and Bischoff has simply said that he didn't get the job because he didn't deserve it this did seemingly leave a bad taste in his mouth with the WWF/E.
After Bill Watts was fired there were two main runners for the Executive Producers role, producer Tony Schiavone and Vice President of Broadcasting Jim Ross but Bischoff (who had been under the two of them) went to TBS executive Bill Shaw and WCW Vice President Bob Dhue and asked them for the job. Because of Bill Watts and, before him, Ole Anderson's effect on the WCW higher ups Ross and Schiavone were not going to get the job because they were known to be wrestling men but Bischoff was an unknown to them and appears to be more a corporate man than a wrestling man so he got them job. JR resigned out of frustration and dissapointment that he had been passed over for the job in favor of someone who had worked under him just slightly before and made his way to the WWF/E to become the voice of Monday Night RAW.
Bischoff was a double edged sword as Executive Producer and later Vice President and President of WCW. On the plus side he convined Ted Turner to invest more money into the company than he had ever done before and used this to sign big name stars like Hulk Hogan and produce a better standard of show and increase the number of PPV's but on the down side he gave the mainevent level talent too much creative control and they used it for their own benefit no the benefit of the company and as WCW became more and more successful, in the early period, Bischoff became obsessed with putting Vince out of Business and in doing so he pushed WCW to run beyond its means.
When Time Warner merged with Turner Broadcasting things began to go further down hill than it had under Bischoff's slight over-ambition. Before this Ted Turner had been content to leave the running of WCW in Bischoff's hands, so long as they turned some kind of profit and contined to compete for the position as top company in the world then he was happy, but with this merger of the two companies Turner began to be pushed out of his position of power and the new men in power didn't like WCW, the direction it was going and didn't, really, support the product.
Bischoff was told by these new owners that he would have to make WCW more "family friendly" and that his financing for the product would be restricted (lessened) and even his power as producer would be lessened. He objected by was force to give in when it was clear Ted Turner was in no position to support him.
The addition of Thursday's "Thunder" programme and an extra Hour to Monday Nitro pushed WCW's production staff and its finances (now less than they were) beyond what was sustainable. In addition to the WWF/E introducing its "Attitude" style of programming these restriction on WCW's creativity saw WCW's decline and the WWF/E's rise. In essence WCW had gone from programming with edge and interest into progamming with out it while the WWF/E had gone from programming without edge to programming with it - they had reversed their roles.
Vince Russo's introduction as a writer lead to the increase in silly storylines, poor booking and bad angles and WCW - which had been on par with the WWF/E in terms of ratings, attendences and PPV buy rates when he arrived - lost a great deal of fans until it was getting less than half the fan base the WWF/E was doing.
Between Bischoff's overambitions, WCW Main-eventers self-serving attitudes and Russo's bad writing WCW decline was certain but even so it was the lack of interest Time Warner showed in the product that doomed it to extinction.
Time Warner had never liked that they had wrestling on their programming. They saw it was low brow and hated that they lost money to keep it going. The only reason they didn't axe it when they merged with Turner Broadcasting was because Ted Turner wouldn't let them. When AOL merged with Time Warner in 2000 Ted Turner finally lost his power base in the company and the company subsqeuently decided that WCW was an un-needed drain on their resources and began to auction it off.
When this happened Bischoff made a bid for it in the hopes of saving the company but was rejected but he returned later in the year with a new consortium of investors with another bid that was accepted. When the WWF/E made inquiries Bischoff and his cosortium withdrew their interest but when Viacom (then WWF/E's broadcaster) objected to a WWF/E owned market Bischoff's cosortium stated their renewed intent.
But before the sale to Bischoff and Co. coud go through the AOL Time Warner executive Jamie Kellner axed WCW from the programming. Bischoff's bid was reliant on AOL Time Warner still showing the product on their programming - at least long enough to get it sold to FOX or NBC - but with no channel to broadcast on WCW was of no value to Bischoff and Co. and the deal fell through.
WWF/E subsequently restated their interest and bought the company up. However Vince was unable to buy up the major stars of WCW due to the fact that AOL Time Warner had contracts with individual performers outside of the Wrestling product. Of all the major stars of WCW Vince was only able to bring in one during his "Alliance Invasion" angle - that was DDP - but he managed also managed to bring in WCW main-eventer Booker T however both of them were poorly used and repesented as nothing more than mid-carders compared to the WWF/E stars.
If WCW had a company that owned it that cared for it and wanted it then it would still be around today. If Ted Turner had not been forced out of his position of power WCW would still be around today. Even with all the problems caused by Bischoff, Russo, Hogan, Nash and Co. it was the lack of interest from AOL Time Warner that killed WCW off.
Hashasheen
Banned
All right, we've got what seems like a few people knowledgable about the issues at hand. Any takers?
Hashasheen
Banned
New info and possible POD from Tropes:
The Undertaker gets a personal off-screen CMoA for his actions after the Montreal Screwjob; after the shit had hit the fan, he pulled Shawn Michaels aside and asked him if he had anything to do with it. After getting several denials, 'Taker goes looking for Vince, hammering on his office door until he answered. 'Taker then basically threatened Vince by (allegedly) telling him that "if you still want to have a company tomorrow, you'd better apologise to Bret [Hart]". Given how a number of wrestlers (including Bret's brother Owen) were furious at what had happened and were prepared to walk out, possibly to WCW - which would have completely destroyed the WWF - not only did Vince try to apologize to Bret, but 'Taker kept his spot on the card (instead of being buried completely) simply because he was that important to the company.
The Undertaker gets a personal off-screen CMoA for his actions after the Montreal Screwjob; after the shit had hit the fan, he pulled Shawn Michaels aside and asked him if he had anything to do with it. After getting several denials, 'Taker goes looking for Vince, hammering on his office door until he answered. 'Taker then basically threatened Vince by (allegedly) telling him that "if you still want to have a company tomorrow, you'd better apologise to Bret [Hart]". Given how a number of wrestlers (including Bret's brother Owen) were furious at what had happened and were prepared to walk out, possibly to WCW - which would have completely destroyed the WWF - not only did Vince try to apologize to Bret, but 'Taker kept his spot on the card (instead of being buried completely) simply because he was that important to the company.
FDW
Banned
I used to be into wrestling, so I can consider myself at least somewhat knowledgeable on the subject, however I really don't much new too add besides saying that I agree that the problems talked about were very real and that some of these ideas could have worked to help the WCW and ECW survive, the lasting effect of the survival? A more competitive and diverse buisness, and definitely higher ratings.
After rereading this thread and reading this quote,
Vince didn't have much to work with when he bought WCW. Nearly all of the major stars were willing to sit at home and wait out their contracts with AOL-Time Warner rather wrestle for less cash. McMahon could picked up any contract of his choice, but considering what those guys were getting paid chose not to. Major WCW Stars (Hall, Nash, Hogan, Flair, Mysterio and Goldberg) weren't signed until after their contracts ran out.
Most of the wrestlers from WCW in the "Alliance" were mostly mid-carders there, and I feel that the reason Booker T (despite being a multi-time World Champion) got put down so much was that his push in WCW didn't occur until the last few months of the company's existence and by that point, champions had little credibility. However, he did go on to become a Grand Slam Champion.
Vince didn't have much to work with when he bought WCW. Nearly all of the major stars were willing to sit at home and wait out their contracts with AOL-Time Warner rather wrestle for less cash. McMahon could picked up any contract of his choice, but considering what those guys were getting paid chose not to. Major WCW Stars (Hall, Nash, Hogan, Flair, Mysterio and Goldberg) weren't signed until after their contracts ran out.
Most of the wrestlers from WCW in the "Alliance" were mostly mid-carders there, and I feel that the reason Booker T (despite being a multi-time World Champion) got put down so much was that his push in WCW didn't occur until the last few months of the company's existence and by that point, champions had little credibility. However, he did go on to become a Grand Slam Champion.
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If Vince McMahon hadn't wasted all that money on the XFL he could have easilly bought all the top WCW Stars and given us the WCW vs WWF storyline all wrestling fans had dreamed of.
Vince bought WCW for $4.2million and lost $70million on the XFL that same year.
Okay, if he bought Goldberg, Hogan, Nash and Co. in on $6million per year contracts then he might upset the locker room but the money he would make off the angle would be almost unimaginable, and if the locker room did get upset about former WCW guys being on big wages there was nothing to stop the WWF/E cutting them once they had played their part in the storyline.
the best way for WCW to have survived was to not have signed these wrestlers carrying big egos to such ridiculously sweet contracts. The company was doomed as soon as that happened. This especially got dumber as things went on, and eventually NONE of the big names/fan favorites hardly showed up or if they did... hardly wrestled. And of course the constant SWERVES got old... fast.
So when you stack it up to what the WWF was doing at the time, popular characters who ACTUALLY showed up, the storylines, and the concept of the bad guys actually GETTING some comeuppance was surprisingly novel.
So when you stack it up to what the WWF was doing at the time, popular characters who ACTUALLY showed up, the storylines, and the concept of the bad guys actually GETTING some comeuppance was surprisingly novel.