Would a surviving Byzantium matter?

Riain

Banned
Perhaps the question is how powerful does the Empire have to be to withstand the rise of the Ottomans? If the Palaiologos managed to consolidate their hold on their 1261 territory, get the economy working and the military reformed, perhaps they'd be powerful enough to withstand the Ottomans? To be honest I stopped reading about post 1204 Byzantium, it's too depressing, so I have little knowledge on this subject.
 
Perhaps the question is how powerful does the Empire have to be to withstand the rise of the Ottomans? If the Palaiologos managed to consolidate their hold on their 1261 territory, get the economy working and the military reformed, perhaps they'd be powerful enough to withstand the Ottomans? To be honest I stopped reading about post 1204 Byzantium, it's too depressing, so I have little knowledge on this subject.

If the Byzantines owned all of western Anatolia, there wouldn't *BE* any Ottoman Empire.
 

Riain

Banned
HSB, how will the get hold of this extra territory in Western Anatolia?

I'm wondering if the territory the Empire held after they re-took Constantinople could provide enough power for the Empire to withstand the Ottomans from 1300? I think the Empire would need a few decades of peace and reform, but if they got that, and perhaps a few small pieces of extra territory, could they withstand the Ottomans and survive into the modern era?
 
HSB, how will the get hold of this extra territory in Western Anatolia?

I'm wondering if the territory the Empire held after they re-took Constantinople could provide enough power for the Empire to withstand the Ottomans from 1300? I think the Empire would need a few decades of peace and reform, but if they got that, and perhaps a few small pieces of extra territory, could they withstand the Ottomans and survive into the modern era?

You're not getting it. That is pretty much what they held in Anatolia in 1261. They didn't get any 'extra' territory in the east. In OTL a group of Ghazi Turks lead by a guy named Ertugrul established a settlement in western Anatolia named Sogut in the mid-late 1260s. It was at first a minor settlement but it would gradually expand and under Osman I become what we know today as the Ottoman Empire.

Thing is, the only reason the Ottomans were able to develop was because Emperor Michael VIII LIKED the idea of Turks in western Anatolia to scare the pro-Laskarid nobles there and keep them in line. If he had wanted to, he could have crushed Sogut and ensured that the Ottomans never came into existence. So assuming either Michael is a bit more far sighted ITL, or better yet, a Laskarid is on the throne, there likely would be no Ottoman Empire.
 
What's even better from the Byzantine perspective is that the rest of Turkish Anatolia is in pieces right now. The so-called Sultanate of Rum has just finished several decades of being thrashed around by the Mongols and is in the process of fragmenting. A Byzantium that comes back strong in Anatolia might have a chance at this unique moment in time.

Looking at other surrounding states: Bulgaria is in an interesting position in the late 13th century. Ostensibly it's as strong as the resurgent 'Byzantine' state, strong enough to have engaged in indecisive and definitely not one-sided warfare through the course of this time period. What does happen is that it's experiencing some dynastic weakness and a very rebellious populace. In fact, there's a very interesting character Ivailo that comes out of this one. Forget fiction, this guy is something straight out of a fantasy novel. Illiterate pig herder, apparently managed to convince the populace that he was God's Chosen Man for lowering their taxes and protecting their farms. One major revolt later, he's the tsar.

The two Latin states to the south are on the down-swing. Achaea is falling out of its glory days (and IOTL would be beaten severely by the Nicaeans), Athens isn't particularly in any danger but it isn't much on its own and it doesn't have the interests of Sicily behind it like Achaea did.

Epirus seems to have not been able to compete IOTL, see no reason for differences.

It seems the late 13th century was a time of opportunity for the Byzantines. It's a shame what happened in Asia Minor messed everything up. Oh Michael, you and your dynastic squabbles.
 
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The two Latin states to the south are on the down-swing. Achaea is falling out of its glory days (and IOTL would be beaten severely by the Nicaeans), Athens isn't particularly in any danger but it isn't much on its own and it doesn't have the interests of Sicily behind it like Achaea did.

Epirus seems to have not been able to compete IOTL, see no reason for differences.

It seems the late 13th century was a time of opportunity for the Byzantines. It's a shame what happened in Asia Minor messed everything up. Oh Michael, you and your dynastic squabbles.


My bias, they need to revitalize their maritime and commercial sector. The whole thing of using cut glass in place of jewels in their ornaments is poignant, people with almost nothing but their dignity. But it is also pathetic, because these people were sitting on the friggin Golden Horn, like starving to death in Ft. Knox. Until the Ottomans boxed it in, there is no excuse for Constantinople not to be a great and rich port city, and the Greek seafaring population is plenty to man the merchant marine and war fleets.

With money, the Empire can mobilize its human resources when needed. It has roughly the population of Henry VII's England. The agricultural sector is inherently poorer, but if Constantinople can make up for that, they should be able to put a formidable army into the field in wartime, and have seapower to dominate the Eastern Med and the spice trade. They will take a hit from Portugal, but so did Venice. The empire is more balanced, because it does have an agricultural sector.

But all of this calls for a mind set like Venetians. The Byzantine political and intellectual elite historically did not necessarily disdain trade, but it wasn't much on their radar. But Venice itself had a lot of Byzantine heritage, so the latent potential may be there in the Byzantine mental toolkit.

The starting place for this sub-POD could be the Basileus realizing that he can't have Venetians and Genoese owning part of his country and all of his trade. Even more critically, he has to go back to the sequence of events from 1082 to 1204 and see that it is not enough to boot the Italians - Greeks have to take their place.

The natural temptation of OTL Byzantines, IIRC, was to buddy up to the Genoese against the Venetians, who were the bigger military threat. But that just puts them in hock to the Genoese. The bolder move would be to cut off the Genoese trade privileges in Constantinople, and grant those privileges to local merchants instead, in turn for some obligation to make their ships available in wartime.

This in time could set up a virtuous cycle of powerful Byzantine merchants, whose influence further pushes the government toward supporting trade. The system, however, might well be 'state capitalism' - as in Venice. In the 17th century this could potentially make Byzantium the Netherlands of the east, not as rich as the real Netherlands, but not poor.


A bit OTL, but my favorite Byzantine TL, which I've never seen explored, is a Norman dynasty. I think Guiscard would quickly have decided that Constantinople was worth more than a filioque clause and gone Orthodox, which basically makes him no longer a foreigner in the eyes of the people. Norman voltage and the 'two Sicilies' could be the basis for a resurgent Byzantium on considerably different lines than 'no Manzikert' TLs.
 
My bias, they need to revitalize their maritime and commercial sector.

Well, believe it or not, I agree. The PoD I've had picked out for a while for a TL I will do eventually is a very different decision from John II Komnenos in the summer of 1118.

As to the Norman Dynasty, I'm pretty sure I've seen it before. May have been Prince of Peace.
 

Riain

Banned
OK, so the territory held by the P dynasty in about 1270 is the basis for a consolidation revival, decades peace (hand waving to get the end effect) leads to propserity and reform in all aspects of government. When the showdown with the emergent Ottoman dynasty comes does victory give the Empire more territory in Anatolia? How much, since the Empire wouldn't want to bite off more than it could chew? The Orthodox church was pretty good at missionary work, with new territory in Anatolia to play with perhaps they could do some converting and strengthen ties to the empire.
 
OK, so the territory held by the P dynasty in about 1270 is the basis for a consolidation revival, decades peace (hand waving to get the end effect) leads to propserity and reform in all aspects of government. When the showdown with the emergent Ottoman dynasty comes does victory give the Empire more territory in Anatolia? How much, since the Empire wouldn't want to bite off more than it could chew? The Orthodox church was pretty good at missionary work, with new territory in Anatolia to play with perhaps they could do some converting and strengthen ties to the empire.

*Pulp Fiction* "Say Ottoman again! I dare you, I double dare you motherfucker say Ottoman again!!" :p

Just teasing, but seriously, I wouldn't call the settlement at Sogut an "emergent Ottoman Dynasty". It wasn't even that. It was just some Ghazi tribe settling down in western Anatolia. Defeating them wouldn't give them any new territory because they settled in the middle of Byzantine Anatolia. They would just be defending what they already had.
 
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