World War One ending with Nerve agents ?

Let assume the Germans rediscover Dimethylphosphoramidocyanidate in 1916
it was discover by Adolph Schall in 1898, in OTL 1936 they found out it's deadliness as nerve agent "Tabun"
But what if this happen already in 1916 under poison gas research ?

The German military command would pleased with this deadly Weapon
Only problem Tabun is to extrem toxic and absorbs true the victim skin, with lethal dose of only 400 mg for a human being.
there is now way to Equipe the entire German forces with body suits against this.
After long discussions and dispute the Military came to verdict: To use "Tabun" only as a Doomsday weapon in case all was lost…

1918 the Hundred Days Offensive happens, the Germans marshal order to fire "Tabun" shells on Entente forces.

how will react the Entente on that ?
 
By 1918, it was over for the Central Powers, period and dot. The U.S. was all the way in and exterminating huge numbers of their troops in a horrifying way wouldn't have done anything except harden their resolve. The Austro-Hungarian Empire was disintegrating, Germany was starving to death from the blockade, and the country was on the brink of revolution. If it was used, the lingering toxicity and, as you say, the lack of full body suits for the CP troops would make it difficult to for the Germans to follow through with any sort of offensive to push the Entente back.

So yes, if Germany had this they could kill huge numbers of Entente troops, but the Entente will drench them with their own, admittedly less effective agents and keep grinding until they win the war. This wouldn't do anything except create an even poorer, more shattered Europe.
 
While tabun is deadly in minute doses, it is not exactly the be end all of chemical weapons. Sarin is thought to be more volatile, meaning it can transform into a vapour better than tabun can. Also, tabun is persistent, meaning it can be absorbed into the environment. This means that if the Germans really do unleash this stuff on the Entente, then they're just poisoning the land they want to take from the enemy, rendering it useless and putting their own soldiers in harm's way, since repeated exposure to this stuff in the environment can have a cumulative effect on the victim. This is particularly true if they're using it around sources of water, since tabun is excellent for poisoning water.

Also, nerve agents are most deadly in enclosed spaces, so if they're using them in a wide field such as on the Western Front, then it is not likely they will get the maximum casualties they want. This is why in the 1995 subway attack in Tokyo, Aum Shurikyo unleashed sarin by puncturing small bags of the agent within enclosed train carriages, effectively turning them into gas chambers.

Before anyone brings up the 1995 attack on the Kurdish village of Halabja, I would like to point out that a UN medical investigation determined that the attack was carried out with mustard gas with tabun, sarin and VX mixed in as a cocktail. The cocktail was probably created to increase the effectiveness of the nerve agents and spread them over a larger area. I could see the Germans using a similar method in 1918, but I have to say that the Germans would have to be Saddam Hussein levels of crazy to resort to nerve agents. Remember that even Hitler wasn't crazy enough to use this stuff.
 
Yes, the Austro-Hungarian and Ottomans Empire was disintegrating
Also was German Empire in begin of this process, but they could bloody suppress the November Revolution

on Tabun use i point out this is weapon of last resort
like Nathan Bernacki point out it would turn frontline in Dead zone were both side not penetrate
and Germans were master in "Buntschießen" aka how use to Gas shell most effective.

on Asp remark that US would continue Fighting
i think that use of Tabun will have disasterous Effect on Entente. if they lose entire armies
Certain that French military will now open rebel against Clemenceau Government and overthrow it
(since the 1917 Nivelle offensive start the french soldiers a mutiny against this kind of Carnage)
Also that BEF will have mutiny against further offensive against Germans after Tabun use.
On Homefront will have massive impact wen number on victims come in.
Also on fear if the German drop those Tabun Bombs on Paris or London

Like i speculated France could face a Military Putsch
While the British Government really consider to "bringing the boys back home"
in USA another thing will happen, Willison who determent to end this war will face opposition,
that Demand that this Carnage stops and USA return to status of neutrality
In mean Time try diplomats come to fast solution of a Armistice with Germany
 
It depends on how effective this agent is and how it can be used.

If it is very effective and enough of it is available, then Germany has basically made itself an island that can only be reached by air and sea. (If Germany evacuates all the people living within naval gun range on the coast and deploys the agent all along its coasts then the sea problem is lessened)

Then there will either be a development from the Entente side on more air power to drop their own chemical / biological weapons and development of more sea power to bombard Germany from the coast and/or there will be some type of peace negotiation.

Germany will have more starvation than the original timeline because the war will go on for longer, and the recovery will be much slower, especially with no trade, because Germany has a ring of death around it and perhaps no one will want to trade with Germany and or trade will be denied by the Entente.

If the agent is less effective and does not create a ring of death around Germany, then the Entente will fight until there is an unconditional surrender by Germany.

I do not think that Britain or France or anyone in the Entente will stop the war even if there are millions more dead soldiers, that if anything will just galvanize the Entente.

To have a stop any military advance would have to be practically impossible, and the Entente air and sea weapons will need to be shown as not effective enough.

So in my opinion Germany would not only have to create this super agent, but also create a strong anti air and anti sea force that can deal with the Entente air and sea forces.

Or Germany itself could create a powerful air force that can deliver this agent and force the European Entente to surrender and then make peace with the US.

And I think it is very unlikely that Germany could create an air force and a sea force strong enough to withstand the Entente and at the same time deal with the domestic issues such as starvation that Germany was facing.
 
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how will react the Entente on that ?
there was a TL germany did get Tabun..in 1914...never liked as people pointed out, gas is not that wunderwaffe as people think is..unlike nukes

Certain that French military will now open rebel against Clemenceau Government and overthrow it
(since the 1917 Nivelle offensive start the french soldiers a mutiny against this kind of Carnage)
Also that BEF will have mutiny against further offensive against Germans after Tabun use.
O
But why?
 

After Battle of Verdun 1916 and more bloody Nivelle offensive 1917
Happen a mutiny in french army against this kind of pointless offensives.
The french Generals deal there way with this picking Soldiers by random and execute them for treason.
Another bloody Offensive like those and French army had revolted !
lucky french Marshal Petain went for a Defence tactic after Nivelle offensive and wait until time was right for the Hundred Days Offensive.

BEF had during Nivelle offensive similar problems, BEF generals direct protesting at Marshal Haig, demanding to stop this carnage.
Some sources Claims that, the British Government really consider (for a while) to recall BEF from France, until USA join the War.

there was a TL germany did get Tabun..in 1914...never liked as people pointed out, gas is not that wunderwaffe as people think is..unlike nukes

is that my TL "Kaiserreich a TL" ? here Germans used Tabu as last resort in final battle with French in spring 1918..
 
is that my TL "Kaiserreich a TL" ? here Germans used Tabu as last resort in final battle with French in spring 1918..
That was your TL? that was so long ago i even forgot, but yeah i did comment there i've some doubt of gas as a proto wunderwaffe till learn how brutal tabun is...

Still dunno what would be, if anything germany need to win now or never as retalliation would be brutal regardless
 
I have to agree with most people's consensus here--a lot depends on the technical limits of effectiveness of Tabun even weaponized in the most brilliant fashion possible. Noting that Tabun is "persistent" I have to wonder, how persistent? I presume it must break down sooner or later, perhaps with some intermediate breakdown products being themselves harmful though it is hard to imagine as harmful as the Tabun! (Thinking of the analogy of hypergolic rocket fuels here--hydrazine and nitric acid, and the tweaked variants of each to improve their respective qualities as fuel and oxidant, are themselves incredibly toxic, but so apparently are products of their reactions. But neither are designed to be chemical death agents). At some point the breakdown products just merge into the general background noise of chemistry ordinary biology has to deal with. So what is the time scale? Years? Decades, centuries? Is it an exponential decay, or perhaps follows some other kind of curve with a definite point of total extinction? Can its breakdown be accelerated and what conditions retard it?

Anyway, there will be theoretical limits. Zeppelins can in principle, if they can learn to deal with the unexpected high altitude winds, and devise a suitably reliable navigation system, drop nerve gas bombs on London--they certainly cannot aim at a precise target. So it is a question of, how many people can a tonne of Tabun realistically kill, bearing in mind persistent effects--so that if one just dropped a big drum of it on some random point in London and it bursts on impact, a lot of people in the immediate vicinity will die, but these humans will absorb only a small fraction of the vapor, and much of it might not evaporate at all, persisting in droplets and slicks and seeping into the topsoil and drains etc. So some of it pools in the vicinity of the drop zone; at first anyone entering this zone would be pretty sure to pick up a fatal dose and die on the spot, but over time the pools that are most volatile and likely for a person or animal or bird to touch will be depleted, washed away by rain or just used up; little stocks of it would be sequestered here or there making inhabitation chancy, and other portions washed down the drains to cause death all downstream.

By 1918, big airplanes like the Gotha bomber and its Allied counterparts were eclipsing Zeppelin bombers, though they would still have some of the same problems. Anti-aircraft defense was improving as well, but I do think that given suitable bombs, which might be more efficient than just dropping a drum of the stuff as above (some means of aerosolizing it by large amounts, using many smaller bombs instead of a few great big ones, etc) German bombers can do serious damage behind the lines. But I believe other threads have tried to do the math and the upper limit of mass death would be tightly bound well below nuclear levels of destruction.

We damn well know, people do not surrender to terror bombing, no matter how terrible. If the bomb does not level the entire city and kill everyone in it at one strike, the survivors rebuild and continue to fight. They have no option to surrender, on a piecemeal basis, and any demoralizing effect making a negotiated peace seem more necessary is offset by anger and vengefulness.

In 1918, the German General Staff might be "forgiven," for not having data on how people react to terror bombing, if not for the obvious moral crime involved. It certainly seemed reasonable to many people that terror bombing would indeed cause the attacked party to put up the truce flag and start talking terms.

Arguably, Tabun is just the same as mustard gas or any other terror weapon of the Great War. You seem more interested in considering its use on the front lines. But weren't the Allied western front trench troops already equipped with pretty good anti-gas protective gear? Tabun might penetrate it--i high enough doses that is. Very light doses would be stopped by the same gear effective against mustard gas. It might be that as a persistent agent, Tabun would be carried into supposedly safe zones when the troops strip off the gear, and everyone dies there instead of in the trenches, but again I believe mustard gas had a similar risk of being smuggled into shelters, and procedures existed. So Tabun shelling sufficient to make a big difference to Allied troops would also be so intense as to kill all the civilians--but I suppose by 1918, most of these are either evacuated or have anti-gas gear and procedures of their own.

So, Michel, I respect you as a humane person and as an engineering mind who can do the math. You tell us, mathematically speaking, given that the Entente has had some years by now to adapt to mustard gas and there are gear, procedures and shelters to minimize that risk, what levels of shell production, agent production, shelling and bombing operations must the Germans undertake to make a major numerical dent in the Allied forces that survived the named offensives OTL? Won't we find that the magnitude of Tabun shells necessary to say kill half the survivors of the OTL last ditch operations is going to be so large that the CPs just plain cannot afford it, perhaps by orders of magnitude?

The most realistic outcome then is that it is just more horror of the Great War of OTL, and the same powers will "win" it, by the same means, and having devised a poison gas even worse than mustard gas will just be yet another item on the "War Guilt" bill the French tried to stick on Germany. The additional cost of life, both promptly during the war and postwar as various zones need to be evacuated and kept clear of human use, with marginal cases of death anyway happening years later, and considerable opportunity cost imposed on the gassed zones, is just another layer of general cost. Maybe France will demand and get annexation not just of the Saar but all the Rhineland, on the theory that the swathes of land ruined by Tabun shelling must be compensated somehow, and the German population will be rousted out--maybe France must share this annexation with Belgium, which would also see a lot territory ruined.

I can't really credit the idea that even France, let alone Britain and the USA, will come to terms. The French might if they were alone, but then again France alone could hardly have lasted until 1918 anyway, eh? The Americans and British have no reason to roll over; their people at risk (barring the occasional Zeppelin or Gotha air raid) are trained, equipped front line soldiers, who now have additional motives both to make best use of their protective gear--and make the Fritzes pay.

Nor can I believe Germany can produce and deploy enough Tabun to create a death zone barrier rendering the German heartland invulnerable. After all, troops in suitable protective gear can cross land drenched in Tabun; any German defenders would be under the same handicap. But the main thing is, how much tonnage of Tabun can Germany produce, and still keep up in maintaining other munitions while keeping the CP subjects properly fed and so forth?

I think if we want to pursue this grisly line, we do better to not suppose the German commanders will recoil in horror at Tabun's potential and react as though it were a WMD, and instead just immediately start substituting it in for mustard gas piecemeal. Perhaps Saddam's cocktail of mustard/Tabun becomes the standard issue gas shell?

I have to wonder how long it would take the Allies to reverse engineer it somehow, or failing that, for Entente intelligence to hit upon the secret and smuggle it out, so both sides are using Tabun before the war finally ends.

I don't believe any kind of gas will change the basic and overall game all that much.
 
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